Bull Rush question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rush question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fleetfang
08-04-07, 05:45 PM Hey all... Hopefully a quick question here:
Do the rules address what happens when a character bull rushes an enemy into a wall?

Specifically, I'm wondering where the rusher and the enemy wind up on the battlemat after the maneuver, and is anyone knocked prone?

I'm about to start playing a Fighter with the Dungeon Crasher alternate Fighter class feature (from Dungeonscape), and it would really help me to smoothly play this PC's tactics if I had a rules reference.
I don't see it in the PHB, but maybe I'm missing it in the FAQ.

Little help?
Thanks,
Fleet'
jaelis
08-04-07, 09:22 PM I feel like I've seen an answer to this, but it's not in the FAQ, Ask Wizards, or the Rules of the Game articles. So maybe I'm just wrong.

Since the rules don't address it, it would be up to the DM. You should just ask for a clarification on how it will be played.

The obvious possibilities are:
1) the bull rush just fails, since your opponent can't move
2) your opponent falls prone
3) your opponent takes some damage
I'd probably lean toward (2) myself.
kjenks
08-04-07, 09:37 PM Nothing happens. The target stops in the square next to the wall. The attacker stops in the previous square, adjacent to the target. No damage, no falling prone, no nothing. The Core rules don't allow for any damage, tripping or whatever. Just movement.

SRD
===
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
===

This rule applies both when you push someone into a wall or into an occupied square.

There is an exception: If the attacker has the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior), he can use the Domino Rush tactic, which grants a free trip attack against both the guy he's pushing and the dude in the occupied square.

http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-728157.html

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180382
Fleetfang
08-05-07, 12:08 AM Since this PC will be taking the Dungeon Crasher fighter class alternate class feature, there is damage involved, but I'll keep in mind that there's no prone-ing until the PC also picks up Shock Trooper (and the free trip attempt applies).

Even then, it looks like there might be some "table variation" on that, since some DMs might consider the wall a valid 'enemy' for the Domino Rush tactic and some may not.

Thanks for the input guys!

Greyhawk rocs,
--Fleet'
Legdiwena
08-05-07, 01:49 AM Would it be logical to cause damage based on how far you could move him after hitting wall? I know RAW don't support it.
Fleetfang
08-05-07, 09:36 AM It might be logical, Leg', but Dungeon Crasher (from Dungeonscape) already has a mechanic for dealing damage.

At Ftr2, if you take the feature, you get a bonus to Strength checks to break down doors and similar objects, but also, if you bull rush a foe into a wall, you deal 4d6+(2*StrMod) bludgeoning damage. At 6th level, I think it bumps up to 8d6+(3*StrMod). It's a great tactical move that completely ignores AC, relying instead on brute strength. Balance comes from the fact that you lose your 2nd AND 6th level Ftr bonus feats for it.

The trouble is that Dungeon Crasher says you resolve the bull rush as normal in the PHB, except that if you beat the foe, they take the damage. Hence my question about how these things would normally be resolved in the PHB. :)
Inigo Carmine
08-05-07, 10:28 AM Be very careful in how much damage you assign to such a thing, if you decide to. There is a large difference between something being painful and something being lethal.

Getting tripped on a solid stone floor hurts like hell, but you'll note that tripping in D&D doesn't cause damage either. Something that causes as little as 3 damage will kill your average person without immediate medical assistance.
Fleetfang
08-05-07, 10:52 AM Inigo,
That's something you'd have to take up with the authors of Dungeonscape. It's an official rules source for the Dungeons & Dragons game. As such, I'm using the rule as written. I'm just trying to figure out how to follow it fully.

You make a valid point, but one might also say that getting body checked by Mike Tyson might kill a normal person, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleetfang 08-04-07, 05:45 PM	Hey all... Hopefully a quick question here: Do the rules address what happens when a character bull rushes an enemy into a wall? Specifically, I'm wondering where the rusher and the enemy wind up on the battlemat after the maneuver, and is anyone knocked prone? I'm about to start playing a Fighter with the Dungeon Crasher alternate Fighter class feature (from Dungeonscape), and it would really help me to smoothly play this PC's tactics if I had a rules reference. I don't see it in the PHB, but maybe I'm missing it in the FAQ. Little help? Thanks, Fleet'
jaelis 08-04-07, 09:22 PM	I feel like I've seen an answer to this, but it's not in the FAQ, Ask Wizards, or the Rules of the Game articles. So maybe I'm just wrong. Since the rules don't address it, it would be up to the DM. You should just ask for a clarification on how it will be played. The obvious possibilities are: 1) the bull rush just fails, since your opponent can't move 2) your opponent falls prone 3) your opponent takes some damage I'd probably lean toward (2) myself.
kjenks 08-04-07, 09:37 PM	Nothing happens. The target stops in the square next to the wall. The attacker stops in the previous square, adjacent to the target. No damage, no falling prone, no nothing. The Core rules don't allow for any damage, tripping or whatever. Just movement. SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === This rule applies both when you push someone into a wall or into an occupied square. There is an exception: If the attacker has the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior), he can use the Domino Rush tactic, which grants a free trip attack against both the guy he's pushing and the dude in the occupied square. http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-728157.html http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=180382
Fleetfang 08-05-07, 12:08 AM	Since this PC will be taking the Dungeon Crasher fighter class alternate class feature, there is damage involved, but I'll keep in mind that there's no prone-ing until the PC also picks up Shock Trooper (and the free trip attempt applies). Even then, it looks like there might be some "table variation" on that, since some DMs might consider the wall a valid 'enemy' for the Domino Rush tactic and some may not. Thanks for the input guys! Greyhawk rocs, --Fleet'
Legdiwena 08-05-07, 01:49 AM	Would it be logical to cause damage based on how far you could move him after hitting wall? I know RAW don't support it.
Fleetfang 08-05-07, 09:36 AM	It might be logical, Leg', but Dungeon Crasher (from Dungeonscape) already has a mechanic for dealing damage. At Ftr2, if you take the feature, you get a bonus to Strength checks to break down doors and similar objects, but also, if you bull rush a foe into a wall, you deal 4d6+(2StrMod) bludgeoning damage. At 6th level, I think it bumps up to 8d6+(3StrMod). It's a great tactical move that completely ignores AC, relying instead on brute strength. Balance comes from the fact that you lose your 2nd AND 6th level Ftr bonus feats for it. The trouble is that Dungeon Crasher says you resolve the bull rush as normal in the PHB, except that if you beat the foe, they take the damage. Hence my question about how these things would normally be resolved in the PHB. :)
Inigo Carmine 08-05-07, 10:28 AM	Be very careful in how much damage you assign to such a thing, if you decide to. There is a large difference between something being painful and something being lethal. Getting tripped on a solid stone floor hurts like hell, but you'll note that tripping in D&D doesn't cause damage either. Something that causes as little as 3 damage will kill your average person without immediate medical assistance.
Fleetfang 08-05-07, 10:52 AM	Inigo, That's something you'd have to take up with the authors of Dungeonscape. It's an official rules source for the Dungeons & Dragons game. As such, I'm using the rule as written. I'm just trying to figure out how to follow it fully. You make a valid point, but one might also say that getting body checked by Mike Tyson might kill a normal person, too.