bull rush scenario [Archive] - Wizards Community

bull rush scenario [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tkotitan
05-07-07, 02:27 AM my question involves the Bull Rush clause that states "Any AoO made by anyone other than the defender has a 25% chance to accidentally target the defender instead" and a weird case with large creatures and a spiked chain. It happened today in my game.

First, medium spiked chain weilding guy standing to the back of a large half-orc, who bull rushes a human standing adjacent in front of him. so a 5-foot, followed by a 10-foot, followed by a 5-foot space, all in a line. From this position, the chain guy can't attack the human. Now when the half-orc enters the human's square, he provokes an AoO from the chain guy, who can still reach the half-orc who takes up a 10x10 space, and there is a 25% chance the spiked chain will somehow hit the human, according to the rules.

I suppose it has to do with mixing square sizes for creatures and there may be some rules I am missing here. But it seems that this and other scenarios can be created where weapons can now reach further thanks to bull rush. I suppose a power gamer could tailor this to using positive/negaitve energy damage versus all undead and say have a healing spiked chain that heals living 75% of the time and hurts undead 25% of the time, through a free AoO.

Sounds weird, but It somehow happened today and I had to makeup something on the fly. I like random creative answers and had the spiked chain channel its flaming and shocking to the human while dealing normal to the half-orc, through some magical reflection off the magic armor of the half-orc, and that was only after the 25% chance was easily made.
tarkin
05-07-07, 11:37 AM A healing spiked chain itself sounds like a huge abuse.

The reason why there is a 25% chance of hitting the human instead of the 1/2 orc is simple.

The AoO comes when you move INTO the target's square.

That is, you both are occupying the same square when the AoO occures.

There is no 'in front of' or 'behind' - instead you are swirling around in a grapple like condition.
tkotitan
05-07-07, 12:19 PM I realize this, but due to size, reach, and boundary conditions, a spiked chain that can normally reach 10 feet can now reach a guy in a square 15 feet away. The smart things to do here is realize that the square under attack only contains the half-orc and thus doesn't have a 25% chance to hit the human. But as written, the rules extend reach in this scenario. (unless I am wrong) And how DM dm to I describe this feat? "Your spiked chain flies from your hand slicing your ally then deftly returns to you in a boomerang like fashion"
Vegepygmy
05-07-07, 12:36 PM But as written, the rules extend reach in this scenario. (unless I am wrong)I disagree with your conclusion. The rules assume that both targets are within your reach; they do not "extend reach" (unless I'm missing something). If the chain guy can't reach the human with his spiked chain, he can't possibly hit him, so the 25% chance is simply that the AoO misses the half-orc.
Steevo
05-07-07, 01:10 PM First, medium spiked chain weilding guy standing to the back of a large half-orc, who bull rushes a human standing adjacent in front of him. so a 5-foot, followed by a 10-foot, followed by a 5-foot space, all in a line. From this position, the chain guy can't attack the human. Now when the half-orc enters the human's square, he provokes an AoO from the chain guy, who can still reach the half-orc who takes up a 10x10 space, and there is a 25% chance the spiked chain will somehow hit the human, according to the rules.

First, let me make sure I'm understanding the layout properly:
C is chain guy, X's are the half-orc. T is the target of the bulls' rush.

_XX
CXXT

Is that right? So the half-orc initiates a bull's rush and your issue here is that the chain seemingly reaches 15 feet where he tries to take his AoO against the half-orc.

I can go one of two ways on this. #1 say the 25% chance of hitting the target stands and ignore the "magic" extra reach, putting it down to silly rules conflicts. #2 state that there's no chance of hitting the target since he's out of reach and so ignore the 25% roll and just attack the half-orc.

If pressed by players on the issue, I could come up with #3 and say the half-orc is already in the target's square, so the chain guy can't hit either of them. But that's mostly my reserve ruling to shut up argumentative players :)
Vegepygmy
05-07-07, 01:14 PM Okay, well, first of all, the Half-Orc does not provoke an AoO from the Chain guy when he enters the target's square. The AoO for entering another person's space is only provoked against the person whose square is being entered.That is incorrect (in the case of a bull rush).

Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender.
tkotitan
05-13-07, 02:50 AM C is chain guy, X's are the half-orc. T is the target of the bulls' rush.

_XX
CXXT

Steevo has the question right. I'm giving this a bump because I still see no clear answer, again, going strictly by the rules, is this a "bug" that enables reach to be extended?

Lots of problems arise when sizes are intermixed and I suppose this is one of them.
Vegepygmy
05-13-07, 01:33 PM I'm giving this a bump because I still see no clear answer, again, going strictly by the rules, is this a "bug" that enables reach to be extended?Let me try to answer your question with another question:

Attempting to Disarm an opponent provokes an AoO. If I use a reach weapon to attempt a Disarm from 10 feet away (beyond my opponent's reach), does the rule stating that he gets an AoO enable his reach to be extended so he can make one against me? The Disarm rules (just like the Bull Rush rules) don't say that it does, but they don't say that it doesn't, either.

FWIW, the FAQ has an answer, which is: "Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you."
Steevo
05-14-07, 12:11 AM Attempting to Disarm an opponent provokes an AoO. If I use a reach weapon to attempt a Disarm from 10 feet away (beyond my opponent's reach), does the rule stating that he gets an AoO enable his reach to be extended so he can make one against me? The Disarm rules (just like the Bull Rush rules) don't say that it does, but they don't say that it doesn't, either.

The answer in that case is definitely no, because the target doesn't threaten the attacker, and you must threaten in order to take an AoO when one is provoked. The thing that makes the OP's situation hairy is that the half-orc provokes immediately before he takes his action (entering the target's square), which means the half-orc provokes while he's still in the chain guy's threatened area. So the Chain guy can definitely take the AoO against the half-orc, but the special 25% chance to hit the target looks kinda silly.
Vegepygmy
05-14-07, 02:19 AM I agree it is not clear what one should do about the 25% miss chance. But I think it's pretty clear that you don't extend the attacker's reach.
Steevo
05-14-07, 06:50 PM I agree it is not clear what one should do about the 25% miss chance. But I think it's pretty clear that you don't extend the attacker's reach.

Well I generally agree, although taking that literally would simply mean the chain guy gets no 25% chance to hit the target.
WolfHati
05-15-07, 03:36 AM Which is exactly what makes sense, so just do it that way. Not that hard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tkotitan 05-07-07, 02:27 AM	my question involves the Bull Rush clause that states "Any AoO made by anyone other than the defender has a 25% chance to accidentally target the defender instead" and a weird case with large creatures and a spiked chain. It happened today in my game. First, medium spiked chain weilding guy standing to the back of a large half-orc, who bull rushes a human standing adjacent in front of him. so a 5-foot, followed by a 10-foot, followed by a 5-foot space, all in a line. From this position, the chain guy can't attack the human. Now when the half-orc enters the human's square, he provokes an AoO from the chain guy, who can still reach the half-orc who takes up a 10x10 space, and there is a 25% chance the spiked chain will somehow hit the human, according to the rules. I suppose it has to do with mixing square sizes for creatures and there may be some rules I am missing here. But it seems that this and other scenarios can be created where weapons can now reach further thanks to bull rush. I suppose a power gamer could tailor this to using positive/negaitve energy damage versus all undead and say have a healing spiked chain that heals living 75% of the time and hurts undead 25% of the time, through a free AoO. Sounds weird, but It somehow happened today and I had to makeup something on the fly. I like random creative answers and had the spiked chain channel its flaming and shocking to the human while dealing normal to the half-orc, through some magical reflection off the magic armor of the half-orc, and that was only after the 25% chance was easily made.
tarkin 05-07-07, 11:37 AM	A healing spiked chain itself sounds like a huge abuse. The reason why there is a 25% chance of hitting the human instead of the 1/2 orc is simple. The AoO comes when you move INTO the target's square. That is, you both are occupying the same square when the AoO occures. There is no 'in front of' or 'behind' - instead you are swirling around in a grapple like condition.
tkotitan 05-07-07, 12:19 PM	I realize this, but due to size, reach, and boundary conditions, a spiked chain that can normally reach 10 feet can now reach a guy in a square 15 feet away. The smart things to do here is realize that the square under attack only contains the half-orc and thus doesn't have a 25% chance to hit the human. But as written, the rules extend reach in this scenario. (unless I am wrong) And how DM dm to I describe this feat? "Your spiked chain flies from your hand slicing your ally then deftly returns to you in a boomerang like fashion"
Vegepygmy 05-07-07, 12:36 PM	But as written, the rules extend reach in this scenario. (unless I am wrong)I disagree with your conclusion. The rules assume that both targets are within your reach; they do not "extend reach" (unless I'm missing something). If the chain guy can't reach the human with his spiked chain, he can't possibly hit him, so the 25% chance is simply that the AoO misses the half-orc.
Steevo 05-07-07, 01:10 PM	First, medium spiked chain weilding guy standing to the back of a large half-orc, who bull rushes a human standing adjacent in front of him. so a 5-foot, followed by a 10-foot, followed by a 5-foot space, all in a line. From this position, the chain guy can't attack the human. Now when the half-orc enters the human's square, he provokes an AoO from the chain guy, who can still reach the half-orc who takes up a 10x10 space, and there is a 25% chance the spiked chain will somehow hit the human, according to the rules. First, let me make sure I'm understanding the layout properly: C is chain guy, X's are the half-orc. T is the target of the bulls' rush. _XX CXXT Is that right? So the half-orc initiates a bull's rush and your issue here is that the chain seemingly reaches 15 feet where he tries to take his AoO against the half-orc. I can go one of two ways on this. #1 say the 25% chance of hitting the target stands and ignore the "magic" extra reach, putting it down to silly rules conflicts. #2 state that there's no chance of hitting the target since he's out of reach and so ignore the 25% roll and just attack the half-orc. If pressed by players on the issue, I could come up with #3 and say the half-orc is already in the target's square, so the chain guy can't hit either of them. But that's mostly my reserve ruling to shut up argumentative players :)
Vegepygmy 05-07-07, 01:14 PM	Okay, well, first of all, the Half-Orc does not provoke an AoO from the Chain guy when he enters the target's square. The AoO for entering another person's space is only provoked against the person whose square is being entered.That is incorrect (in the case of a bull rush). Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender.
tkotitan 05-13-07, 02:50 AM	C is chain guy, X's are the half-orc. T is the target of the bulls' rush. _XX CXXT Steevo has the question right. I'm giving this a bump because I still see no clear answer, again, going strictly by the rules, is this a "bug" that enables reach to be extended? Lots of problems arise when sizes are intermixed and I suppose this is one of them.
Vegepygmy 05-13-07, 01:33 PM	I'm giving this a bump because I still see no clear answer, again, going strictly by the rules, is this a "bug" that enables reach to be extended?Let me try to answer your question with another question: Attempting to Disarm an opponent provokes an AoO. If I use a reach weapon to attempt a Disarm from 10 feet away (beyond my opponent's reach), does the rule stating that he gets an AoO enable his reach to be extended so he can make one against me? The Disarm rules (just like the Bull Rush rules) don't say that it does, but they don't say that it doesn't, either. FWIW, the FAQ has an answer, which is: "Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you."
Steevo 05-14-07, 12:11 AM	Attempting to Disarm an opponent provokes an AoO. If I use a reach weapon to attempt a Disarm from 10 feet away (beyond my opponent's reach), does the rule stating that he gets an AoO enable his reach to be extended so he can make one against me? The Disarm rules (just like the Bull Rush rules) don't say that it does, but they don't say that it doesn't, either. The answer in that case is definitely no, because the target doesn't threaten the attacker, and you must threaten in order to take an AoO when one is provoked. The thing that makes the OP's situation hairy is that the half-orc provokes immediately before he takes his action (entering the target's square), which means the half-orc provokes while he's still in the chain guy's threatened area. So the Chain guy can definitely take the AoO against the half-orc, but the special 25% chance to hit the target looks kinda silly.
Vegepygmy 05-14-07, 02:19 AM	I agree it is not clear what one should do about the 25% miss chance. But I think it's pretty clear that you don't extend the attacker's reach.
Steevo 05-14-07, 06:50 PM	I agree it is not clear what one should do about the 25% miss chance. But I think it's pretty clear that you don't extend the attacker's reach. Well I generally agree, although taking that literally would simply mean the chain guy gets no 25% chance to hit the target.
WolfHati 05-15-07, 03:36 AM	Which is exactly what makes sense, so just do it that way. Not that hard.