Bull Rush Tactics... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rush Tactics... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mogofeiden
10-21-05, 06:48 AM Hi all,

Here I am trying to understand bull rush usefulness. 'Cause as it stands it seems useful only on those occasions where there's deep pits nearby :P .

I) What happens to the target of a Bull Rush when he's bull rushed into a square occupied by a friend? CAn it be?
1) Does the target fall prone?
2) What happens to the friend?
3) Can they occupy the same square? If so do they threaten the adjacent squares?

Here's the SRD

BULL RUSH
You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)
Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

Special Movement Rules
These rules cover special movement situations.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Moving through a Square
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.
Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Regards,
Mogofeiden
SBMC
10-21-05, 09:10 AM What happens to the target of a Bull Rush when he's bull rushed into a square occupied by a friend? CAn it be?

No you cannot. You can only bulrush someone into a square that they could otherwise legally move into (even if it meant bad things; such as a pit or fire).

An exception to this is using part of the “Shock Trooper” Tactical Feat found in the Complete Warrior handbook. Using the Domino Rush maneuver you can push one opponent into another and get a free trip attack against both. This can be combined with the Directed Bull Rush maneuver as well. I highly recommend taking Combat Reflexes for anyone who takes any sort of a feat that knocks folks down (such as this one, Improved Trip or Overrun). Since if they stand up you get a free AoO. In this case (Domino Bull Rush), depending on what you have in hand and angles you may get 2 AoO’s against the two prone opponents.

Bull Rush is one of those feats that does not come out and strike you as being useful at first. That us because, frankly, it is a tool to get other things done for the most part instead of a means to an end. Bull Rush is one of those feats that you have to use your brain and tactical know how to take advantage of – and when you do it works out quite well.

You spoke of a pit; that is one use for it - A fire nearby is another use; pushing your opponent into the fire works quite well – or even water (gets them out of melee for a round or two, or if they can’t swim…). Damaging (magical or not) wall of some sort. Additionally there are many times where it may be advantageous for you to break up a group of bad guys; to move one or more away from the others. This can be used for that as well. To get guards out of your way is another – to plow a path to get at the leader (even to clear a line of sight for a caster with a ray, for example). In Role playing it also works quite well in non lethal barroom type confrontations.

To be honest – since the Shock Trooper Tactical Feat is out there now it is almost silly not to get it if you already have Improved Bull Rush since this tactical feat really adds a lot to the Bull Rush maneuver – makes it 10 times as useful.

One of my current character’s has Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper – and another has Improved Overrun. To me Improved Overrun is a cheap version of Improved Trip - as you don’t get the attack as you do with Improved Trip (but you also don’t need Combat Expertise). But it also lets you get someone out of your way (and out of action for a moment).

Just my two cents…
Mogofeiden
10-21-05, 06:32 PM Thanks for the help.

No you cannot. You can only bulrush someone into a square that they could otherwise legally move into (even if it meant bad things; such as a pit or fire).

An exception to this is using part of the “Shock Trooper” Tactical Feat found in the Complete Warrior handbook. Using the Domino Rush maneuver you can push one opponent into another and get a free trip attack against both. This can be combined with the Directed Bull Rush maneuver as well. I highly recommend taking Combat Reflexes for anyone who takes any sort of a feat that knocks folks down (such as this one, Improved Trip or Overrun). Since if they stand up you get a free AoO. In this case (Domino Bull Rush), depending on what you have in hand and angles you may get 2 AoO’s against the two prone opponents.

Bull Rush is one of those feats that does not come out and strike you as being useful at first. That us because, frankly, it is a tool to get other things done for the most part instead of a means to an end. Bull Rush is one of those feats that you have to use your brain and tactical know how to take advantage of – and when you do it works out quite well.

You spoke of a pit; that is one use for it - A fire nearby is another use; pushing your opponent into the fire works quite well – or even water (gets them out of melee for a round or two, or if they can’t swim…). Damaging (magical or not) wall of some sort. Additionally there are many times where it may be advantageous for you to break up a group of bad guys; to move one or more away from the others. This can be used for that as well. To get guards out of your way is another – to plow a path to get at the leader (even to clear a line of sight for a caster with a ray, for example). In Role playing it also works quite well in non lethal barroom type confrontations.

To be honest – since the Shock Trooper Tactical Feat is out there now it is almost silly not to get it if you already have Improved Bull Rush since this tactical feat really adds a lot to the Bull Rush maneuver – makes it 10 times as useful.

One of my current character’s has Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper – and another has Improved Overrun. To me Improved Overrun is a cheap version of Improved Trip - as you don’t get the attack as you do with Improved Trip (but you also don’t need Combat Expertise). But it also lets you get someone out of your way (and out of action for a moment).

Just my two cents…
Rulebook
10-21-05, 07:41 PM yeah we usually used our barbarian as an offensive lineman, to break open a hole in the enemy line for the spellcaste to shoot through, or the other fighters to rush. you'd be suprised how well that works too.

of course you could just be at thri-kreen and JUMP over the enemy line (it wont be hard at all either) to get to the back row...
20102000
10-22-05, 09:50 AM My favourite use for bullrush, is to provoake AOO. Used in the middle of a big melee, a succesful bullrush can cause a lot of extra hits.
Other instances where i've used it are to save a wizard, moved the monster away from him. And to move a monster away from cover.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mogofeiden 10-21-05, 06:48 AM	Hi all, Here I am trying to understand bull rush usefulness. 'Cause as it stands it seems useful only on those occasions where there's deep pits nearby :P . I) What happens to the target of a Bull Rush when he's bull rushed into a square occupied by a friend? CAn it be? 1) Does the target fall prone? 2) What happens to the friend? 3) Can they occupy the same square? If so do they threaten the adjacent squares? Here's the SRD BULL RUSH You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.) Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable. Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. Special Movement Rules These rules cover special movement situations. Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. Moving through a Square Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover. Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.) Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Regards, Mogofeiden
SBMC 10-21-05, 09:10 AM	What happens to the target of a Bull Rush when he's bull rushed into a square occupied by a friend? CAn it be? No you cannot. You can only bulrush someone into a square that they could otherwise legally move into (even if it meant bad things; such as a pit or fire). An exception to this is using part of the “Shock Trooper” Tactical Feat found in the Complete Warrior handbook. Using the Domino Rush maneuver you can push one opponent into another and get a free trip attack against both. This can be combined with the Directed Bull Rush maneuver as well. I highly recommend taking Combat Reflexes for anyone who takes any sort of a feat that knocks folks down (such as this one, Improved Trip or Overrun). Since if they stand up you get a free AoO. In this case (Domino Bull Rush), depending on what you have in hand and angles you may get 2 AoO’s against the two prone opponents. Bull Rush is one of those feats that does not come out and strike you as being useful at first. That us because, frankly, it is a tool to get other things done for the most part instead of a means to an end. Bull Rush is one of those feats that you have to use your brain and tactical know how to take advantage of – and when you do it works out quite well. You spoke of a pit; that is one use for it - A fire nearby is another use; pushing your opponent into the fire works quite well – or even water (gets them out of melee for a round or two, or if they can’t swim…). Damaging (magical or not) wall of some sort. Additionally there are many times where it may be advantageous for you to break up a group of bad guys; to move one or more away from the others. This can be used for that as well. To get guards out of your way is another – to plow a path to get at the leader (even to clear a line of sight for a caster with a ray, for example). In Role playing it also works quite well in non lethal barroom type confrontations. To be honest – since the Shock Trooper Tactical Feat is out there now it is almost silly not to get it if you already have Improved Bull Rush since this tactical feat really adds a lot to the Bull Rush maneuver – makes it 10 times as useful. One of my current character’s has Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper – and another has Improved Overrun. To me Improved Overrun is a cheap version of Improved Trip - as you don’t get the attack as you do with Improved Trip (but you also don’t need Combat Expertise). But it also lets you get someone out of your way (and out of action for a moment). Just my two cents…
Mogofeiden 10-21-05, 06:32 PM	Thanks for the help. No you cannot. You can only bulrush someone into a square that they could otherwise legally move into (even if it meant bad things; such as a pit or fire). An exception to this is using part of the “Shock Trooper” Tactical Feat found in the Complete Warrior handbook. Using the Domino Rush maneuver you can push one opponent into another and get a free trip attack against both. This can be combined with the Directed Bull Rush maneuver as well. I highly recommend taking Combat Reflexes for anyone who takes any sort of a feat that knocks folks down (such as this one, Improved Trip or Overrun). Since if they stand up you get a free AoO. In this case (Domino Bull Rush), depending on what you have in hand and angles you may get 2 AoO’s against the two prone opponents. Bull Rush is one of those feats that does not come out and strike you as being useful at first. That us because, frankly, it is a tool to get other things done for the most part instead of a means to an end. Bull Rush is one of those feats that you have to use your brain and tactical know how to take advantage of – and when you do it works out quite well. You spoke of a pit; that is one use for it - A fire nearby is another use; pushing your opponent into the fire works quite well – or even water (gets them out of melee for a round or two, or if they can’t swim…). Damaging (magical or not) wall of some sort. Additionally there are many times where it may be advantageous for you to break up a group of bad guys; to move one or more away from the others. This can be used for that as well. To get guards out of your way is another – to plow a path to get at the leader (even to clear a line of sight for a caster with a ray, for example). In Role playing it also works quite well in non lethal barroom type confrontations. To be honest – since the Shock Trooper Tactical Feat is out there now it is almost silly not to get it if you already have Improved Bull Rush since this tactical feat really adds a lot to the Bull Rush maneuver – makes it 10 times as useful. One of my current character’s has Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper – and another has Improved Overrun. To me Improved Overrun is a cheap version of Improved Trip - as you don’t get the attack as you do with Improved Trip (but you also don’t need Combat Expertise). But it also lets you get someone out of your way (and out of action for a moment). Just my two cents…
Rulebook 10-21-05, 07:41 PM	yeah we usually used our barbarian as an offensive lineman, to break open a hole in the enemy line for the spellcaste to shoot through, or the other fighters to rush. you'd be suprised how well that works too. of course you could just be at thri-kreen and JUMP over the enemy line (it wont be hard at all either) to get to the back row...
20102000 10-22-05, 09:50 AM	My favourite use for bullrush, is to provoake AOO. Used in the middle of a big melee, a succesful bullrush can cause a lot of extra hits. Other instances where i've used it are to save a wizard, moved the monster away from him. And to move a monster away from cover.