| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Jesse Heinig12-21-04, 09:10 PM | Recently in a game I ran, a character Bull Rushed an enemy, with the resulting movement pushing the enemy to a square occupied by another PC (and, therefore, an invalid square for the enemy). Checking the rules, I couldn't find any ruling on what happens to the pushed foe. A quick email to Wizards' custserv garnered the response that there is no ruling on it, that they would leave it up to the DM and suggest that either the enemy falls prone in the invalid square, or else he simply can't be Bull Rushed into that square. Opinions? Personally, I would cause the subject to fall prone in the invalid square. After all, when you initiate a Bull Rush, you can be pushed back if you fail in the contested roll against the target, and if you bounce back into an invalid square, you fall prone. It makes sense for there to be some symmetry, especially when you go to all the trouble and risk of making a Bull Rush. |
| BW022212-21-04, 10:37 PM | See PHP p148, Special Movement Rules -- Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space. |
| Jesse Heinig12-21-04, 10:54 PM | This isn't exactly an "accidental" move. In any case, it doesn't make sense for the risk of a Bull Rush (that you may take an AoO if you don't have a feat, PLUS you wind up prone if you rebound into an invalid square) doesn't mesh with the reward (an opponent who is pushed into an invalid square instead suffers no effect?) |
| BW022212-21-04, 11:34 PM | >This isn't exactly an "accidental" move. For the defender, yes. If you bull rush, awesome blow, telekineses, etc, etc. and otherwise force someone in an invalid square these rules apply. >In any case, it doesn't make sense for the risk of a Bull Rush (that you may >take an AoO if you don't have a feat, PLUS you wind up prone if you >rebound into an invalid square) You need to charge to start a bull rush. This means you have a straight path to the target for at least four squares. If you fail the strength check you would move back out of his square towards your direction of travel. This square can not normally be occupied since you just moved through it -- and you can't charge someone if something is in they way. About the only way for this to happen is someone used a readied action to move into the square. >doesn't mesh with the reward (an opponent who is pushed into an invalid >square instead suffers no effect?) Then don't bull rush someone if the squares behind him aren't empty! No one said that bull rushing is a smart idea to being with. Using it in situations where it is tactically unsound is a problem with the rules. You don't bull rush someone standing next to a wall or with a person behind them. Wait until they have their backs to a cliff, rat swarm, or wall of thorns. |
| kjenks12-22-04, 08:17 AM | SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === (And you don't need to charge to initiate a Bull Rush attack.) |
| digoraccoon12-22-04, 08:37 AM | Okay so PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy and the Enemy gets pushed back into a square occupied by PC2. If I were the DM I'd probably rule it as one of two ways: A) PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy. Enemy moves back into PC2's square. Since PC2 occupies the square, Enemy falls prone in PC2's space. B) PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy (Man it's not this critter's day). Enemy moves back into PC2's square. Since PC2 occupies the square and Enemy moved into his personal space, PC2 gets Attack of Opportunity on Enemy (I'd add Flank bonus if PC1 & PC2 flank Enemy). After AoO is resolved Enemy stands at last legal space he occupied, which in this case is the original square. PC1 remains in his own original square as well. Either way has a possible beneficial result, either the enemy is prone or possibally damaged. |
| Bane12-22-04, 11:17 AM | You don't bull rush someone standing next to a wall First, isn't there a rule that says if you push someone into a wall, they take 1d6 damage for every 10' they would have moved had the wall not interfered? Or is that a house rule we play with? Second, I would give PC #2 an AoO because the enemy is attempting to move from a threatened square. |
| kjenks12-22-04, 06:56 PM | First, isn't there a rule that says if you push someone into a wall, they take 1d6 damage for every 10' they would have moved had the wall not interfered? Or is that a house rule we play with? No, there's no rule like that. Second, I would give PC #2 an AoO because the enemy is attempting to move from a threatened square. That's right, but there's a chance this AoO will hit PC1. Okay so PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy and the Enemy gets pushed back into a square occupied by PC2. If I were the DM I'd probably rule it as one of two ways: A) PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy. Enemy moves back into PC2's square. Since PC2 occupies the square, Enemy falls prone in PC2's space. This makes some sense, but this is pretty close to the behavior of the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior, p.112), Domino Rush maneuver. I'd be unwilling to give this ability to PC1 unless he has the feat -- and even then, it looks like PC2 is likely to fall prone, too. B) PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy (Man it's not this critter's day). Enemy moves back into PC2's square. Since PC2 occupies the square and Enemy moved into his personal space, PC2 gets Attack of Opportunity on Enemy (I'd add Flank bonus if PC1 & PC2 flank Enemy). After AoO is resolved Enemy stands at last legal space he occupied, which in this case is the original square. PC1 remains in his own original square as well. That's pretty close to the Rules As Written. PC1 Bull Rushes Enemy. Unless PC1 has the Improved Bull Rush feat, PC1 provokes an AoO from Enemy as PC1 enters Enemy's square. Effectively, PC1 and Enemy are sharing squares at this point. Now if PC1 succeeds in his opposed Strength check, he pushes Enemy back one or more square. Let's assume he pushes Enemy back just one square. After that, PC1 and Enemy are no longer sharing squares; PC1 is now in the square that Enemy formerly occupied and (per the original note from Jesse Heinig), the Enemy ends up in a square that's occupied by PC2. PC2 gets an AoO on the Enemy during the Bull Rush (specifically, as Enemy enters his square). Any attack of opportunity by anyone other than PC1 against the Enemy has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting PC1. Now here's where it gets interesting. At this point, PC2 and Enemy are sharing squares. PC1 is in the square that Enemy was in at the beginning of the bull rush. Since Enemy is in an illegal square, he's gotta move to the last legal position he occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. Since he can't move back to the last legal position he occupied (PC1 is standing there), he's gotta move to the left or the right. If these three yahoos are in a 5 ft. wide corridor, Enemy actually gets pushed to the next square beyond PC2. BULL RUSH You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.) Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable. Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. |
| Jesse Heinig12-22-04, 07:27 PM | So I can actually wind up in the position that, if I Bull Rush an opponent who has a friend behind him, I go through (as I push him back), he winds up stopping in an invalid square, he gets bounced back behind me (to his starting square), and I wind up prone in his friend's square. This makes no sense to me. Sounds like time for a house rule. |
| kjenks12-22-04, 07:34 PM | So I can actually wind up in the position that, if I Bull Rush an opponent who has a friend behind him, I go through (as I push him back), he winds up stopping in an invalid square, he gets bounced back behind me (to his starting square), and I wind up prone in his friend's square. This makes no sense to me. Sounds like time for a house rule. Not quite. If the three of you are in a dead-end 5 ft. wide corridor, with the Enemy2 at the end, when you bull rush Enemy1 back five feet, you're in the square he started in. He gets bumped into Enemy2's square, but that's not a valid square, so he moves to the nearest valid square, and that's behind you. You end up flanked by Enemy1 and Enemy2. Nobody is prone. |
| Jesse Heinig12-22-04, 07:40 PM | All I'm saying is that it's completely counterintuitive to me that I would Bull Rush someone and have him standing up behind me, instead of prone in front of me. |
| ClementWillowbreaker12-22-04, 08:09 PM | Yes, that is seriously messed up. Having the enemy bounce between two allies, provoking AoOs and ending up in the same space, seems like a really good idea. Its kinda like bullies shoving around the geeky kid, but with maces :) Pushing the enemy through and over an ally is also an interesting idea. Going to the schoolyard once again, its like having your buddy crawl up behind the geek and shoving him over. It works very well if that ally is a dwarf- then he just shoulders the enemy over :) Now, the bullrushing rules end with a note that if the attacker fails, and his last square before the bullrush is occupied (by an ally, most likely, since that is the only square he could have moved through without overrunning and having an action left for bullrushing), he falls prone. This is in total disregard to the rule that you cannot end your movement in an occupied square unless the person is helpless. |
| happycows12-22-04, 09:57 PM | 1) the bull rush is made 2) Character A moves to an occupied square 3) Character A is okay as long as that square is occupied by an friend or nuetral. 4) If it is not than an attack of opportunity is made and the character is forced into an empty square that is adjacent. 5) If no empty square exists... I don't know what happens either a) falls prone or b) keeps moving into another occupied square randomly and repeat steps 1-5. or c) falls prone I can't remember the ruling well. Do not call it an invalid square... because it's not "invalid." |
| primemover00312-22-04, 10:05 PM | You need to charge to start a bull rush. This means you have a straight path to the target for at least four squares. Not true. You don't need to charge to start a bull rush. BULL RUSH You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). I would rule if the target of the bull rush is pushed into a space he cannot enter (wall, square occupied by friend or foe) he ends up prone in that space. |
| BW022212-22-04, 10:36 PM | Most rules questions are solved by a careful reading of the exact text of the rule. XXXXXX XXXXXX PXX12X XXXXXX P bull rushes #1. He moves into the square, assuming that he wins, he bull rushes #1 into another persons square #2. There is nothing wrong at this point. However, at the end of the turn you end up with... XXXXXX XXXP*X XXXXXX Both 1 and 2 are in square * and the special movement rules apply. "When this happens you put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer." #1 can't be in * because that isn't a legal position, so he'd go back to the last legal position he was in. That is there P now is, so it isn't legal either. So, you put him in the closest legal position. XXXXXX XXXP2X XXXX1X or XXXX1X XXXP2X XXXXXX or XXXXXX XXXP21 XXXXXX etc. The DM gets to decide this. He'd have to be rather strange to select the square behind the bull rusher. |
| kjenks12-23-04, 12:35 AM | Most rules questions are solved by a careful reading of the exact text of the rule. [...] The DM gets to decide this. He'd have to be rather strange to select the square behind the bull rusher. Or the situation would have to be rather strange, like this: WWWWWWWW PXXXX12W WWWWWWWW If they're all in a 5 ft. wide corridor, hemmed in by walls, look what happens: WWWWWWWW XXXXXP*W WWWWWWWW And now, where does 1 go? The nearest legal square! WWWWWWWW XXXX1P2W WWWWWWWW Fun! Assuming 1 was a fighter guarding 2, a wizard, P is now in the wizard's face. Basically, he grabbed 1 by the arm and spun him around in an alaman right (a square dancing term). Now look what happens if wizard 2 has two guards, 0 and 1: WWWWWWWW PXXX012W WWWWWWWW When P makes his bull rush attack, it's like this: WWWWWWWW XXXX0P*W WWWWWWWW And now the nearest legal square for 1 is -- you guessed it -- WWWWWWWW XXX10P2W WWWWWWWW Isn't that great? P tossed 1 ten feet back! But here's where the PH rule for falling prone comes in. If P moves through 0 and bull rushes 1, what if he fails his opposed Strength check with 1? WWWWWWWW XXXX*12W WWWWWWWW In that diagram, P is sharing a square with 0 just before he enters 1's square to make his opposed check. If he fails, he falls prone in 0's square. |
| kjenks12-23-04, 12:41 AM | I would rule if the target of the bull rush is pushed into a space he cannot enter (wall, square occupied by friend or foe) he ends up prone in that space. That's not what the PH says. It says the target moves to the nearest legal square. Your approach makes bull rush considerably more powerful, more like the Domino Rush maneuver of the Shock Trooper feat, which a character can't take until 6th level minimum. |
| No-man12-23-04, 03:12 PM | Sounds like a common sense approach is needed. In the corridor example, where 1 is guarding the wizard at the end, a Bull Rush is going to push 1 into the wizard's spot. Keep in mind "squeezing" movement, where a creature that takes up a 10' area (Ogre) can move through a 5' corridor with double movement costs. This is similar, in that 2 people are crammed in a 5' area. It's possible, but tight and both would be restricted from acting freely. I'd say that if the bull rushing character CHOSE to let the person he rushed, he could be behind the rusher. Otherwise, if the space around the wizard was open and 1 was pushed back into the space by the bull rusher, then the bull rusher could push 1 further, if desired (and his roll was high enough). There should also be rolls to see if A) 1 struck the wizard or not and B) 1 or the wizard was knocked prone. I don't think automatically falling prone would be correct; at least allow a DEX roll or Reflex save to avoid falling. If 1 bumped the wizard, then the wizard might be pushed back(if roll high enough), or 1 would move to one side or the other of the wizard, if the roll wasn't enough to continue pushing 1 back. You could also rule that since moving through an allied space, movement is double so instead of pushing 1 back 1 square per 5 points that the rusher won by, it would take winning by at least 10points to push past the wizard. My twain of copper input |