Post/Author/DateTime	Post
primemover003 09-07-07, 09:23 AM	Can it be done? I don't mean bull rush the mount, I mean the rider. I know you can dismount a rider with trip, but how about bullrush (or more specifically the knockback feat)? If so would it be prudent to allow the Rider to substitute it's Ride check for the Strength check to oppose the Bull rush?
tarkin 09-07-07, 10:46 AM	What you are talking about does not sound like a bull rush maneuver to me. The key part of a bull rush is that you first move into the space the opponent is in. Then basically you have to push him out of the way. The rider is on the horse, so moving into that space should require you to first mount the horse or grapple the horse. Instead you need to use Trip If you read Trip in the PHB/SRD you will see: Tripping a Mounted Opponent You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Knightblde 09-07-07, 03:38 PM	You can Overrun. It would be really hard for a medium PC to Overrun a large Horse, but you could do it. If you actually knock the horse prone, the rider would get a safe fall ride check (DC 15) to avoid 1d6 damage. It does not mention if the rider would be prone or not. I would probably rule yes, but I do not see a rule for it. If anyone could point me to this rule, I would appreciate it. Happy Gaming!
Dog_O_War 09-07-07, 03:45 PM	This one of the best questions I have seen in a while. The answer is; it is up to the DM (as the rules don't go into detail about it [which I could be horribly wrong about, but I can't find it]). I would say yes, but the mount and the mounted would get attacks of opportunity (unless you have the feat required ofcourse), that and the mounted would get the stability bonus of his mount (if any), plus maybe a circumstance bonus; but if you had succeeded, he would be pushed prone onto the ground (+1d6 subdual for the akward fall from his mount).
perdera 09-07-07, 04:02 PM	Well, he's not trying to do a traditional Bull Rush. He's trying to Power Attack the rider and he has the Knockback feat which then allows him to initiate a Bull Rush against his target for 'free'. I'd resolve it as normal for your attacks of this type, but I'd give the rider some bonuses: I'd give the rider the +4 bonus for being 'exceptionally stable'. So if you're Large (I hope so since you have Knockback) and he is Medium, this is a wash. I'd allow him to use a Ride check in place of his Strength check against your Bull Rush, this is consistent with how 'Tripping a Mounted Opponent' is resolved in these situations. If you succeed then he his knocked back out of his saddle the appropriate distance depending on your check. I think at this point we're well beyond a Ride check to not land prone...so probably a Tumble check, DC set by your Bull Rush result, or land prone with 1d6 falling damage.
primemover003 09-07-07, 06:03 PM	Well, he's not trying to do a traditional Bull Rush. He's trying to Power Attack the rider and he has the Knockback feat which then allows him to initiate a Bull Rush against his target for 'free'. I'd resolve it as normal for your attacks of this type, but I'd give the rider some bonuses: I'd give the rider the +4 bonus for being 'exceptionally stable'. So if you're Large (I hope so since you have Knockback) and he is Medium, this is a wash. I'd allow him to use a Ride check in place of his Strength check against your Bull Rush, this is consistent with how 'Tripping a Mounted Opponent' is resolved in these situations. If you succeed then he his knocked back out of his saddle the appropriate distance depending on your check. I think at this point we're well beyond a Ride check to not land prone...so probably a Tumble check, DC set by your Bull Rush result, or land prone with 1d6 falling damage. Thanks Perdera, this is what I was looking for... I'm not doing the Knockingback... I'm planning the encounter with it in mind. One of my players, a half minotaur has knockback and I'm planning on throwing a Narzugon mounted on a Nightmare at him. Since Knockback is his bread and butter I wanted to be ready to handle the situation which while odd Rules wise is very feasible and cinematic. So stability from being mounted (+4) + Ride skill vs the power attack + imp bullrush + size of the attacker... check. This should definitely even out the normally HUGE disparity between the attackers check (usually around +21) and the average medium creatures mod (Basically just strength).
Mirannan 09-08-07, 10:10 AM	This is a bull rush against the creature that is mounted (not against the mount! which IIRC requires a charge move as part of the attack. It specifically says in the rules that a Jump move can be used as part of a move action (e.g. if you do a 20' runup - which is required - and jump 10 feet, and your move is 30, then the entire action is a single move). If I was DMing this, I would require a Jump check with DC depending on the height of the mount's back above the caster (judgement call, depending on what the mount is) less maybe 2 feet, as the attacker's feet don't need to be at the height of the mount's back, followed by the bullrush attack; alternatively, allow a grapple attack with a success on the second stage meaning that the rider has to make a Ride check. Sorry for being vague - I don't have the books with me! In addition, I would say that a successful Stunning Fist attack would mean the rider's off, but of course this is largely confined to monks. Reason? Well, you have just been hit damn hard by a flying kick delivered by a martial arts expert, and are suffering from concussion or something like it - momentum and the fact that you can't think well enough to grab the reins tend to mean this, to me. Difficult - skill check followed by an attack - but spectacular if it works. And you really shouldn't be trying this if you aren't good at it. Of course, any of this only applies if the mount is larger than the attacker.