Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mkill 10-26-06, 11:53 AM	How do you judge it when a character attempts a bull rush against an enemy that has his back against a wall? I guess this should do slam damage, but I wonder whether there are any official rulings for it. Also, what happens if you bull rush and push an enemy into somebody else's space? Reflex saves to see who ends up prone on the floor? One could simply rule that it's not possible, but I love the image of a barbarian running screaming into the enemy lines and pushing his way through...
tarkin 10-26-06, 01:40 PM	Wall: I believe they end up prone, but take no damage. That is what happens if you try to bull rush someone but fail and there is someone/thing behind you. Into a crowd: I think both make a dex check to avoid being prone. If neither faill, they both occupy the same space and are considered to be 'squeezing'. Neither can make an attack until one of them gets out of the square or becomes prone.
kjenks 10-26-06, 04:59 PM	Nobody ends up prone. Nobody takes damage. Nobody ends up squeezing. SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === This rule applies both when you push someone into a wall or into an occupied square. There is an exception: If the attacker has the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior), he can use the Domino Rush tactic, which grants a free trip attack against both the guy he's pushing and the dude in the occupied square.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-26-06, 05:48 PM	one of the maneuvers from the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior): - Doimino Rush - if you move an opponent into another opponents' square, you get a free trip attack (that doesn't provoke an aoo) on both
mkill 10-27-06, 06:02 AM	Nobody ends up prone. Nobody takes damage. Nobody ends up squeezing. SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === This rule applies both when you push someone into a wall or into an occupied square. I am mildly aware that standard D&D assumes that characters are not people but plastic figures that are moving around on a piece of cardboard. But there are people who don't like that way of thinking. Of course it is reasonable that you can't bull rush somebody into a wall (as opposed to against a wall). Of course you need some place to put your miniature. Still it's kind of weird that a 100 kg barbarian can rush into an orc and push him against a wall without doing the slightest amounts of damage! The point is, of you read the bull rush rules, it simply states: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. It says nothing about obstacles in the way of the push and what happens to them. It definitely does not state the orc is unharmed if he is pushed backwards. He can fall into lava pits, take damage from spikes on the ground, he can trigger traps. He can even be hit with an attack of opportunity! Maybe the wall gets an attack of opportunity :rolleyes: After all, the ground gets an attack of opportunity on you when you crash into it from high altitude... The rule you quoted does only say what to do with that plastic miniature *after* the orc was pushed into the wall. It does not say whether the orc took damage while he was pushed into it. After all, this is simply a matter of a quick DM ruling. Maybe the Bull Rusher can roll for unarmed damage when he pushes somebody against a wall. Sounds reasonable to me. As for the Shock Trooper feat: If you can do it with a feat, it seems reasonable that you can do it without a feat, too, maybe at a -4 penalty.
kjenks 10-27-06, 07:50 AM	After all, this is simply a matter of a quick DM ruling. Maybe the Bull Rusher can roll for unarmed damage when he pushes somebody against a wall. Sounds reasonable to me. Play the game however you want. But you should know how the current rules work before you go making up your own rules. As for the Shock Trooper feat: If you can do it with a feat, it seems reasonable that you can do it without a feat, too, maybe at a -4 penalty. Sheesh. What's the point of selecting a feat if you'll let anybody get the benefits without the feat? (Walls and ground making attacks? Man, I'm glad I don't play in your campaign.)
SunTzuWarmaster 10-27-06, 08:26 AM	I would not let a character gain the benefits of shock trooper under those circumstances. They would do nothing but bull rush. Think about it, character makes a bull rush at -4, succeeds, pushes enemy into another enemy (both take unarmed damage under your system), makes both trip attempts (easy if you can make the bull rush check). When they try to get up, character then get TWO aoo's at full bab. I mean, come on, a character with improved bull rush and combat reflexes doing the following in a round: - bull rush one enemy into another (both take d6 damage) - trip attacks on both - 2 aoos (normal weapon damage (likely a good power attack), full bab) a level ONE fighter gets 5 attacks in a round Shock trooper has a BAB requirement of +6 for a good reason.
Steevo 10-27-06, 10:02 AM	Here's my personal ruling on the matter: Bull rushing someone into a wall: If the wall is thin or loosely constructed, there's a good chance it will simply collapse, causing no appreciable damage to anyone and the victim of the bull's rush falls prone on the other side. Assuming the wall is thick and hard enough to resist impact, the victim of the bull rush takes bashing damage equal to 1d4 x (attacker's weight/10.) Fort Save DC 10 for half (if the DM is feeling lenient.) Note that this is the attacker's base weight, not including any gear. At the end of the attack, the victim is standing in the space before the wall, the attacker is in the next space out (basically, the damage for the slam replaces that 5 ft of movement.) The bull rush is immediately ended, even if the attacker could have "pushed farther." Characters with armor/shield spikes may petition to make this damage bashing and piercing. They do not, however, gain a free attack with thier spikes. This is mainly a balance issue, since bull rush should not grant a free attack, imho. Bull rushing someone into another person: No damage is dealt to anyone. The second person (the one not directly involved) gets a Reflex Save DC 10 to sidestep into an adjacent space (DC 15 if that person is currently flatfooted.) If he fails, he falls prone. The attacker and his victim keep moving normally. It is theoretically possible for the second person to sidestep backward (ie: to remain in the path of the bull's rush.) It would be stupid, but it would be possible (and sometimes there might not be a choice.) In this case the second person automatically falls prone if and when the bull's rush intrudes on his new square. More lenient DMs might allow for further Reflex Saves, but I don't since I prefer to place a limit on how much "free" movement such a character can gain from these circumstances. Finally, on the subject of Shock Trooper, I emphatically disagree with the idea that people without the feat should be allowed to do it, at penalty or otherwise. By that logic, anyone should be allowed to use Great Cleave with all extra attacks at -4, or make additional AoO's at -4, and so on and so forth. My brain hurts when I think about mages petitioning for the use of metamagic feats without the feat with some sort of penalty (because you just know someone will ask.) Feats are feats for a reason.
DarknessEternal 10-27-06, 10:07 AM	Wall: I believe they end up prone, but take no damage. That is what happens if you try to bull rush someone but fail and there is someone/thing behind you. This is actually in the FAQ. This is what the FAQ says happens. If you bull rush someone into a wall, you end up adjacent to the wall, they end up prone.
GorgeHadozee 10-27-06, 10:15 AM	As a point to bring out, Bull Rush is a Standard Action, not a Melee Attack, so not available as an AoO. "Its not what you are doing, its how you look doing it" Phillipe, Bard of Some Reknown
tarkin 10-27-06, 10:23 AM	Thank you DarknessEternal, it is always nice to come up with the same answer the FAQ does. Also note, to kjenks, while your idea makes some sense, you missed an important word in your SRD quote. ACCIDENTLY If we were accidently ending up in an illegal square, you would be correct. But this is not an accident, it is an attack. People recover easily from accidents, but an attacks is far worse because while you try to avoid the bad thing, someone else counters your move and if you lose the 'contest', you should be 'punished'. The difference is key.
kjenks 10-27-06, 12:31 PM	The difference is key. The difference is subjective and moot. It's subjective because one man's plan is another man's accident. Did the defender plan to get shoved into a wall? No, he tried with all his might to avoid it. And the difference is moot. There's no rule saying that you take damage, end up prone or are squeezing as a result of losing an opposed bull rush rule (with couple of exceptions), so those things don't happen. Unless the DM feels like making up his own rules, in which case anything can happen.
mkill 10-27-06, 12:35 PM	(Walls and ground making attacks? Man, I'm glad I don't play in your campaign.) And you obviously don't get silly jokes no matter how obvious... :rolleyes: There's no rule saying that you take damage, end up prone or are squeezing as a result of losing an opposed bull rush rule (with couple of exceptions), so those things don't happen. Unless the DM feels like making up his own rules, in which case anything can happen. That is the point where the thread started. The bull rush rules as written simply don't take into account that sometimes you can't push somebody backwards. The situation is simply not covered by the rules, the DM has to decide on his own (or look into the FAQ). What you say (no damage, no prone, no squeezing) is your interpretation. And this is your right as a DM. Just accept that other DMs have a different interpretation and feel that there should be some damage when you push people into a wall. Each of us is right in his campaign. @Steevo: I like your way of handling it, I think I'll use that as a house rule.
tarkin 10-27-06, 12:35 PM	The difference is not subjective. And as stated by others, THERE IS A WOTC RULE THAT STATES YOU FALL DOWN Bull rush is me forcing you backwards. I am applying energy to your body and that energy has to go someplace. According to the official WoTC FAQ, the energy goes into forcing you down. That is entirely and completely different from you stepping backwards because the wall is closing and the space you left is no longer a legal space.
mkill 10-27-06, 12:58 PM	Since the point came up, why not disgress a bit: Finally, on the subject of Shock Trooper, I emphatically disagree with the idea that people without the feat should be allowed to do it, at penalty or otherwise. By that logic, anyone should be allowed to use Great Cleave with all extra attacks at -4, or make additional AoO's at -4, and so on and so forth. My brain hurts when I think about mages petitioning for the use of metamagic feats without the feat with some sort of penalty (because you just know someone will ask.) Feats are feats for a reason. I would not make it a general rule that you can try every feat without having it at some penalty. With most feats, the rules state what happens if somebody tries maneuver X without the feat. Example: You can disarm, but you provoke an AoO. You can try to Cleave, but you are too slow so make your attack next round please. But... In my philosophy of DMing, rules are not there to judge what PCs can and can not do. PCs can attempt everything, well, everything that is reasonable for a fantasy character to do. Sometimes the rules will give them a 100% fail chance. Most of the time the DM can come up with some mechanics, if there are no rules for it in PHB and DMG. Life is complex, and rules can't cover everything, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. As for the mage trying out metamagic feats... If the player wants to, why not? Spellcraft check, high DC, ... and don't fail your roll. You have been warned that maximized fireball will explode in your face if you are not careful. If the DC is high enough and the consequences of a failed check are grave, this can make balanced mechanics. As a DM, you shouldn't be too afraid to be creative. The worst you can do is increase the fun for your players. If, as a DM, I say "this is impossible" it means "there is no believable way your character can do it" and never "there are no rules for it".
Subedei 10-27-06, 01:20 PM	Regardless of what the rules say, you can't tell a player slaming someone's head into a wall wont do damage, or that they can't slam someone's head into a wall because they PHB doesn't specific rules for it. I'd just give them a single unarmed strike against the target that cannot be used to make a special attack and recieves a +2 to attack for every 5' of bullrush movement that they didn't use to move the target. The target does not fall prone. So say you beat them by enough to move them 20', and you move them 10' into a wall thus gaining +4 on your attack roll but you can't use that roll to disarm them or trip them or anything. How's that sound?
antsterr 10-27-06, 01:26 PM	Since no one has touched on the topic of damage. I read a few months ago about a situation where the DM declared that the victim of the bull rush, slammed in to a wall would take damage equal to a fall of the same height plus the attackers Str bonus. So if you bull rush for 20 feet you'd do 2d6 points of damage plus str. I think this is a super answer. Just to make things interesting I'd say add any damage from spiked armour or spiked shield :D If someone bull rushed one guy into someone else's space I'd do it up as an overrun attempt. Probably with a plus 4 bonus to the person bull rushing because he's got the momentum of two people to overrun the third guy with.
Steevo 10-27-06, 01:41 PM	Since no one has touched on the topic of damage. I read a few months ago about a situation where the DM declared that the victim of the bull rush, slammed in to a wall would take damage equal to a fall of the same height plus the attackers Str bonus. So if you bull rush for 20 feet you'd do 2d6 points of damage plus str. I think this is a super answer. Just to make things interesting I'd say add any damage from spiked armour or spiked shield :D If someone bull rushed one guy into someone else's space I'd do it up as an overrun attempt. Probably with a plus 4 bonus to the person bull rushing because he's got the momentum of two people to overrun the third guy with. This is an interesting way to do it, too, on both counts. I still prefer my house ruling, but that's mostly because I said it. :P This ruling is good, too.
kjenks 10-27-06, 03:35 PM	The difference is not subjective. And as stated by others, THERE IS A WOTC RULE THAT STATES YOU FALL DOWN Where? A quotation or citation would be great. As far as I can tell from the PH rules, the attacker may fall prone if he initiates the bull rush from an occupied square and fails on the opposed check, but the defender can't fall down (unless the attacker has the Shock Trooper feat and he uses the Domino Rush tactic).
kjenks 10-27-06, 03:39 PM	The situation is simply not covered by the rules, the DM has to decide on his own (or look into the FAQ). The situation is covered by the rules -- I quoted the rule for accidentally ending movement in an illegal square. And the FAQ is silent on this issue.
KmartKommando 10-28-06, 11:46 PM	You would think that pushing someone back 10 feet to a wall would hurt less than, say, pushing them hard enough to push them 20 feet, into a wall at 10 feet. I think the damage from hitting the wall, if any, should be based on how far they would keep going, had the wall not been there. Also, if you push someone into a wall, and they can't go any farther, they'd have to go back into the last legal square they occupied, which would be now occupied by you, barring any Book of Nine Swords throwing maneuvers (which rule, btw :P ) so they would indeed fall prone because they can't get into that square.
mkill 10-29-06, 07:41 AM	The situation is covered by the rules -- I quoted the rule for accidentally ending movement in an illegal square. And the FAQ is silent on this issue. No, as I don't agree that the quoted passage applies or gives a usable ruling. After all, the orc that is pushed back can't end his movement in an illegal square because a) he is not moving, he is moved b) there is a stone wall keeping him from ending up in that square in the first place! The passage you quote is for stuff like squeezing past somebody else and running out of move, or a halfling running through a giant's legs and ending up in his square. Use common sense, and common sense dicates: pushed pack with force + wall in the way = ouch In my last campaign there was a player, 150 kg, played American Football in the offense line... If you still don't believe there should be some ruling on damage, we might put a wall 5 ft. behind you, ask him to charge you for 80 ft. (barbarian movement) and bull rush... I don't think ending up in an illegal square will be the result, rather a hospital bed.
cog_and_taz 10-29-06, 07:53 AM	What happens::bump: Sorry, I had to.
JTalbain 10-29-06, 08:06 AM	I think the whole balance issue of Bull Rush doing damage when you knock someone into a wall is that the fact that Bull Rushes do not require attack rolls. There is an opposed check, but there's an opposed check for trips too. If you like the tactic, it's a lot easier to be mooked out for it than to be kitted against it. So assuming walls are in your campaign, you by allowing this, you are allowing a non magical way that anyone can totally bypass AC and deal hp damage. Just something to take into account. That said, I think realistic damage if you want to do this is: Attackers Strength Bonus + Extra Amount of Bull Rush + 4 for every size category larger than the defender the attacker is This really should do a lot of damage, as the defender isn't just being hit, he's being squished. I think a Free Trip may be in order too. But that's just me trying to bring realism into the game, says nothing for play balance.
mkill 10-29-06, 08:18 AM	For game balance, one could add an opposed attack roll. Whoever loses takes the damage from the wall. The roll represents a chance for the defender to wriggle out fast enough so the storming attacker takes a full frontal collosion with the wall instead. On the other hand, this would rather be an attack of opportunity by the defender + defensive throw... Another option would be to allow the defender a reflex save to half or avoid damage from hitting the wall. As for brokenness, it is already possible by standard rules to bull rush into spiked pits and acid lakes, and it's still just an opposed Strength check.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-29-06, 09:09 AM	A good d6 per 10 feet (falling damage-esque) would be alright. The damage is just enough that a greatsword would do more (you get more strength bonus +/- power attack +/- magic of weapon when you hit). It would add some nice flavor too... Barbarian: "I power attack" DM: "you miss" Barb: "I attack normally" DM: "you miss" Barb: "I smash the ****er into the nearest wall!" (does less damage than being hit with a sword, but virtually can't miss)
JTalbain 10-29-06, 11:02 AM	As for brokenness, it is already possible by standard rules to bull rush into spiked pits and acid lakes, and it's still just an opposed Strength check. Compare the number and accessibility of spiked pits and acid lakes in most worlds to walls and get back to me.
mkill 10-30-06, 10:45 AM	Well, there are also roof edges, ship railings, grease, entangle and web spells, monster auras, gelatinous cubes, alchemists fire, tanglefoot bags, dungeon traps, allies with attacks of opportunity left ... there is a lot you can bull rush people over or into in any normal campaign, even at first level. It's just that most of this things have some kind of damage rating or effect in the rules (falling damage, drowning, trap damage, attack damage) while the simple wall does not, for some reason. If you think this is a balance issue you probably don't play a game where a spell can level a whole city... Just because most barbarians / power attack tree fighters don't seem to care about using the environment to their advantage doesn't mean it can't be done. The worst thing that can happen to a bull rush expert is either a boring DM (another fight in a standard 10 x 10 foot constructed dungeon room, yay!) or a wizard / druid unable to cast the right spells. Btw, note that the most effective bull rushers (i.e. monsters with huge strength scores) are actually on the DM's side.
Azdraugnor 10-30-06, 01:46 PM	What about requiring a grapple check in order to cause damage when you rush them into a wall? Pushing somebody back is one thing, but actually slamming them harmfully into the wall is rather different. Also, the damage from this should be nonlethal, IMO, with a few exceptions - such as armor spikes. And of course, the possibility to take a -4 on (the grapple check or the bull rush roll? I'm torn; maybe both) to deal lethal damage instead. As to the actual damage dealt, I'd go with something like JTalbain's idea - you deal damage equal to the amount you beat them by on the bull rush check. This means that in any case, this will very rarely deal more than 20 damage anyway, so it can't be particularly unbalancing.
Steevo 10-30-06, 05:16 PM	What about requiring a grapple check in order to cause damage when you rush them into a wall? Pushing somebody back is one thing, but actually slamming them harmfully into the wall is rather different. Also, the damage from this should be nonlethal, IMO, with a few exceptions - such as armor spikes. And of course, the possibility to take a -4 on (the grapple check or the bull rush roll? I'm torn; maybe both) to deal lethal damage instead. As to the actual damage dealt, I'd go with something like JTalbain's idea - you deal damage equal to the amount you beat them by on the bull rush check. This means that in any case, this will very rarely deal more than 20 damage anyway, so it can't be particularly unbalancing. I like that. Requiring a grapple check to get a proper grip for slamming them into the wall handily sidesteps the lack of an attack roll. I'd also, upon further reflection, require that the bull's rush be at least ten feet (ie: you need to move at least two squares, and therefore beat your victim by at least five on the contested check.) It does take a little time to build up enough momentum to properly hurt someone. Only moving five feet into a wall might jostle the victim, but it probably won't hurt all by itself.
Esponer 10-30-06, 05:22 PM	Here I was thinking that this topic was going to be about bull rushing a wall, which is incapable of making Strength checks and thus automatically fails, thus being pushed back by one fifth of your check result. That wouldn't work because... I know.
Pan0pticon 10-30-06, 05:44 PM	IIRC, could we not use the battering ram spell (SpC, dunno page ref) as a template for this? The spell is essentially a bull rush at distance, doing a static 1d6 damage if pushing an opponent into an obstacle. Its in the SpC, i'd give a ref but I don't have my books with me.
mkill 10-31-06, 02:45 AM	I don't think static damage is the way to go. There should be some difference between a halfling pushing you with a lucky strength check and a charging stone giant barbarian lvl 20 doing the same.
JTalbain 10-31-06, 09:25 PM	I don't think static damage is the way to go. There should be some difference between a halfling pushing you with a lucky strength check and a charging stone giant barbarian lvl 20 doing the same. Agreed there. And as for balance of this MKill, I wasn't really worried about it being devastating in high level play. Even ignoring the devastation of high level spells, high end weapons will wreak more havok than this would. I was more worried about the possibility of abuse at low level, where a low level uber AC halfling could be smeared into pasty goo by a raging barbarian fighter with Johtunbood and have almost no chance of resisting. And I don't even play halflings. :D Here's the stats for a half-orc Bbn2/Ftr1 built for bull rushing: 20 Str (24 while raging), Feats: Johtunbrood, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush Modifiers: +5 (+7) for Str + 4 (Johtunbrood) + 4 Improved Bull Rush + 2 for charge = +17 to bull rush. If the halfling has avg halfling str (8) and is in the path of this monstrosity, we'd be looking at a -1 modifier up against a +21 (for the halforc being two sizes larger effectively with Johtunbrood). Assuming average rolls, and even assuming the half orc needs to push him 10 feet into a wall first, that's an average of 12 damage with no AC or saving throw involved. In worst case scenario, if only the halforc needs to move the 10 feet, and he rolls a nat 20 while the halfling rolls a 1, he deals 40 damage with no saving throw and totally bypassing AC. At level 3. Obviously, this system wouldn't work. Assuming 1d6 damage per 10 feet into the wall, that's still an average of 14, with a bone crushing max of 24 at level 3. There's gotta be another way to balance this.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-31-06, 09:49 PM	the same (max) Power Attacking Half-orc barbarian deals: 2d6 + 7 (str) + 4 (.5*str rounded up) + 6 (PA) = 2d6 +17 (avg: 24, max 29) with a +7(str) +2(charge) = +9 to attack (+/- a weapon or other feats) albeit, it takes the AC into account, but I would hardly call a max 24 dmg (a one-in-four-hundred chance for a nat 1 vs a nat 20 with a -1 mod versus a +7) broken, especially considering the feat investment of 3 feats versus one. Something else to consider: although the barbarian can do that the first round, he would be completely unable to do it again the second round (assuming he doesn't knock the halfling through the wall). Even more to consider: if the reflex save was allowed, the barbarian should take the damage ;) (headfirst into the wall).
JTalbain 11-01-06, 02:15 PM	Hell, assuming the other way, with the half-orc rolling a 1 and the halfling rolling a 20, the halfling still takes damage. Not saying the mechanic is utterly broken in concept, but it would only get worse from there. And yes the half-orc could do it again next round, he would merely lose the +2 bonus for charging on his bull rush attempt. I would say doing damage based on an unarmed strike would be best. Something like Unarmed Strike damage + 1 for every 5 feet beyond the amount necessary to push him into the wall. This way it would give a way to cause damage to someone who's really hard to hit by using the environment to your advantage, but is still usually a suboptimal method of attacking. It makes it a reasonable circumstancial option without making it too powerful.
SunTzuWarmaster 11-01-06, 06:06 PM	hmm, I thought that the accepted ruling was that you had to have some momentum before you hit the wall. For example if the halfling was 15 feet from the wall, and got pushed to it, he would take damage from a 15ft. push... But if he was at the wall already, he wouldn't take anywhere near as much. Anywho, I plan on seeing what my DM says the first time the situation arises.