Bull rushing charges [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull rushing charges [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
userprop
04-16-06, 09:29 PM bull rush says "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge"

and charge says "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action"

so... does this mean that you can initiate a charge, make an attack AND push them back?

and, by extension, does that mean a dire lion could charge, bull rush someone back, make a full attack (with pounce), initiate a grapple with improved grab, and do rake damage, all in 1 round, even if it is under the effect of "slow" or nauseated by a "stinking cloud"?

as usual, I'm looking for RAW here, not just what you think your GM would/should decide.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-16-06, 09:46 PM No. The bull-rush counts as the attack at the end of the charge.
userprop
04-16-06, 09:48 PM No. The bull-rush counts as the attack at the end of the charge.

why? you've got to back this kind of thing up, not just opine.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-16-06, 09:58 PM "you only get to make one attack on a charge."

Read the entire section in the PHB when you want to learn about something. The last sentence usually contains something interesting.
draconic_swine
04-16-06, 10:40 PM From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush):

When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him.

So no, you cannot charge, push somebody back, and attack. You've gotta choose between attacking and pushing at the end of your charge.
userprop
04-16-06, 10:59 PM "you only get to make one attack on a charge."

Read the entire section in the PHB when you want to learn about something. The last sentence usually contains something interesting.
relax, you dont need be insulting.

anyhow, i dont see that as prohibiting the above scenario, first, there are ways to get multiple attacks on a charge (the dire lion in my example can, for example, because it has pounce), but moreover, bull rushing isnt really an attack, so i dont see that caveat as prohibiting the action.

"When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him."

So no, you cannot charge, push somebody back, and attack. You've gotta choose between attacking and charging at the end of your charge.
I assume you meant "pushing" instead of "charging" in that last sentence? anyways, the bull rush isnt damaging him, the attack (which is seperate) is damaging him. the statement "instead of damaging" points out the fact that bull rushes do not deal damage; there is no damage dealt when the target is moved, but that doesnt prohibit a bull rush from being part of a charge with a seperate attack (or multiple attacks with pounce, etc) which attempts to deal damage.

"You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge"

clearly the bull rush itself doesnt deal damage, but what i see in the rules is that the bull rush can be part of a charge. it doesnt say "instead of the attack in a charge".

you might make the argument that since it says "an attack", thats what the bull rush counts as, however it still suggests that its in addition to the attack from the charge, since "an attack" is ONLY saying what type of standard action it counts as, and doesn't apply when it is made as part of a charge.
draconic_swine
04-16-06, 11:54 PM Yes, I did mean to say "pushing" instead of "charging". Mistake corrected :)

Not really anything else strictly spelled out in the rules, but more arguments (based on logic and extrapolation) on why you can't bull rush and attack at the end of a charge:

1) A bull rush is a special attack action that replaces your normal attack(s) in a round, therefore it replaces the attack at the end of a charge.

2) It's too powerful. Performing a bull rush with an attack after a charge combines a standard action with a full-round action. This clearly allows you to do too much in a single round.

3) Charging provides a bonus to attacks and bull rushing due to the momentum you build up. How are you supposed to do both successfully at the end of a charge? All the energy you built up with the charge will be spent immediately on either the attack or the bull rush.

4) The rules don't outright say you can combine them. While this is a weak argument (and can just as easily be used against me), I still think it's a valid point. Allowing you to attack and bull rush brings up other issues, such as which comes first? Would the bull rush come first, or the attack? I think if the designers intended for this to be possible, they would have explained things.
DaMullet
04-17-06, 01:21 AM Think about it this way:

Bull Rush= standard action
Single attack= Standard action

Charge = Double move+melee attack/equivalent standard action (of which there is only one ((bull Rush)))

Break it down and it makes more sense.
Mitchell
04-17-06, 02:29 AM You only get one attack from a charge anyway...
From the SRD:
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

So even if you were otherwise entitled to 100 attacks, if you charge, you get one, and if that attack is a bull rush, then that's what it is, so that takes care of that lion scenario.
Anyway, the rules don't bother telling you everything that you can't do. It's impractical, and it's assumed that players won't feel that if they are killed they get to explode in a 500hd fireball that ignores all resistances and covers 10 square miles... Even though it's not in the rules. :)
userprop
04-17-06, 03:28 AM Anyway, the rules don't bother telling you everything that you can't do. It's impractical, and it's assumed that players won't feel that if they are killed they get to explode in a 500hd fireball that ignores all resistances and covers 10 square miles... Even though it's not in the rules. :)
i see it differently, its not an issue of the rules NOT saying what you can do, but in this case, the rules specificly say you can do it. they say that a bull rush is either a standard action or part of a charge. they DON'T say its the attack in the charge, they DON'T say it takes the place. using the "what the rules dont say shouldn't be implied" arguement, you DO get to bull rush in the charge, not in exclusion to your attack. to argue that the rules say you can't you're arguing that you can't becaue they don't say you can, which we both agree is not sound basis for an arguement.

also, if a lion doesn't get multiple attacks on a charge, what exactly is your interpretation of the ability "pounce"?
DaMullet
04-17-06, 08:54 AM Here's my take on it.

Pounce: Ex.
If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Normally, you are limited to a single attack (which may be a bull rush if you want) after charging, with a higher mod to your roll.

Lions, as an extraordinary ability, are granted the ability to make a full attack after charging (which may also include two Rake attack).

So,
Human Fighter one charges= Single attack/bull rush attempt
Lion charges= Full attack (2 claw, 1 bite, 2 rake*)*rake attacks are bonuses not normally granted as part of a full attack.
userprop
04-17-06, 09:41 AM OMG, i wish I'd never included the lion thing :P

the question I'm asking has nothing to do with pounce or lions or w/e.
the only reason I asked for Mitchel's interpretation of pounce was to point out that it looked like he was making an erroneous statement.

the question is bull rushing as part of a charge, and whether or not you get the attack.

again, what i see is that a charge is a specific and singular action that includes specific movement and melee maneuvers, and that a bull rush is neither, but is allowed to be executed as part of said charge action, AS A PART OF THE ENTIRETY, neither excluding or replacing any of the specific maneuvers therein.

people have claimed that this isnt supported by the rules, that I'm finding proof in the lack of a specific denial, but i dont see that, in fact i see that a denial of this operation is unsuported, and that you have to read more vaguries into the text to prove it prohibited than to prove it as allowed. i see a specific inclusion of the combination, and no specific denial. thus by simplicity and logic it seems a legal combination.

as for balance or intent, i'm not a fool and so won't pretend to see every angle and loophole, but i feel that its not broken, since it either provokes an AOO or requires a feat, and still doesn't accomplish much in most circumstances, due to the restraints on targeting charges the the miss chance on your ally's AOOs. as for original intention, i dont know, but i certainly dont see this as distasteful. who can't imagine a barbarian shoving some hapless foe around in a berserk rush before laying into him with an axe to the face.

of course, you can argue whether or not it is intended, tasteful, or broken, but thats really beside the point, having looked it over and considered multiple arguments, i dont see any reason why this isnt a legal operation. moreover, this is exactly the sort of thing that would have made it into the errata or faq by now, and its absence, along with the clarity of the rules supporting it lead me to beleive its not illegal. i just dont beleive im the first or only person to consider this. seems like a natural thing one would look into after reading how bull rushes work, at least thats what i did.
Ash the blackcowl
04-17-06, 10:11 AM bull rush says "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge"

and charge says "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action"

so... does this mean that you can initiate a charge, make an attack AND push them back?

No, it means "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action" I suppose it could say attack action, but no where does it say you can charge, attack and bull rush.

and, by extension, does that mean a dire lion could charge, bull rush someone back, make a full attack (with pounce), initiate a grapple with improved grab, and do rake damage, all in 1 round, even if it is under the effect of "slow" or nauseated by a "stinking cloud"?

Now, I might give you props here. If the dire lion is allowed a full attack he could substitute any attack action for either of his claw or bite attacks (I wouldnt allow it for the rake). If the creature is slowed he cant charge, as charge is a full-round action and the effects of slow limit him to a standard action or a move action. Nauseated creatures can only take a move action so, no a nauseated creature could not take any of these actions either.
userprop
04-17-06, 11:03 AM If the creature is slowed he cant charge, as charge is a full-round action and the effects of slow limit him to a standard action or a move action. Nauseated creatures can only take a move action so, no a nauseated creature could not take any of these actions either.
actually, you can:

"If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."

you know this by heart if your games have lots of zombies :P
draconic_swine
04-17-06, 11:43 AM as for balance or intent, i'm not a fool and so won't pretend to see every angle and loophole, but i feel that its not broken, since it either provokes an AOO or requires a feat

What feat are we talking about here?

I'm not sure how you do not see this as broken.

In a standard round, you can, among other things:

move twice
move and attack once (or other equivalent action, such as tripping, sundering, bull rushing, etc.)
make two attacks (if your BAB is high enough) with only a five-foot step for movement as a full round action

The only way you can make a single attack while moving twice your speed is by taking a special full-round action. Adding a bull rush to this puts you way over the top. What you're asking to do is the equivalent of taking a full attack action while moving twice your speed. And you can justify that under the rules how, exactly?
ajb47
04-17-06, 02:09 PM again, what i see is that a charge is a specific and singular action that includes specific movement and melee maneuvers, and that a bull rush is neither, but is allowed to be executed as part of said charge action, AS A PART OF THE ENTIRETY, neither excluding or replacing any of the specific maneuvers therein.

Actually, right at the beginning of the description of Bull Rush it says:

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.

A Bull Rush is an attack action. It just also happens to be an action you can take as part of the full round action of Charging.

people have claimed that this isnt supported by the rules, that I'm finding proof in the lack of a specific denial, but i dont see that, in fact i see that a denial of this operation is unsuported, and that you have to read more vaguries into the text to prove it prohibited than to prove it as allowed. i see a specific inclusion of the combination, and no specific denial. thus by simplicity and logic it seems a legal combination.

I didn't have to read anything into that sentence at the beginning of Bull Rush and I never once thought you could charge, bull rush, and attack in one round.

You can't Bull Rush and make an attack in the same round even without Charging.

AJ
rironin
04-17-06, 02:10 PM why? you've got to back this kind of thing up, not just opine.I have been making a rather exhaustive search for documentation that backs up the claim that this is not allowed. There is startlingly little, aside from the previously mentioned common-sense interpretations of the stated rules for bull rushing and charging - that is, bull rushes are normally made in place of an attack, and when a bull rush is made at the end of a charge, it is made in place of the melee attack, not in addition to it. As you've demonstrated, however, it's difficult to completely nail this down due to the particulars of the RAW. Still, I do not believe you've discovered some sort of dormant "easter egg" in the rules that no one has noticed up until now - that is, I don't think your interpretation is what was intended by the game designers, or it would've come up already. Instead, most people (myself included) simply feel that our interpretation is self-evident.

Still, I went looking for an example of a published feat or ability that enabled creatures to do something similar to the action you've described, since such a feat or ability would demonstrate that creatures are not normally able to accomplish this. There are several examples that come close:

Races of Stone - A feat described here has several prerequisites including Improved Bull Rush, and enables a character who is raging to knock an opponent to the ground at the end of a bull rush if he takes a penalty. If creatures could charge, bull rush, and attack normally, then this feat provides only marginal benefits - in fact, Improved Trip would be almost strictly better than this feat if the rules worked as you claim: the character could charge, bull rush, trip and then attack its opponent.
Races of the Wild - A tactical feat in this book enables creatures to make a single attack as a full-round action that lets them make a free bull rush attempt if they hit, assuming several conditions are met, and they can only push the opponent back 5 feet. Again, if all creatures could charge, attack and bull rush, then this tactical ability has only marginal benefits.
Miniatures Handbook - Another feat in this book enables a character to make a free bull rush attempt once per round after a successful attack. Again, the opponent only moves 5 feet. Improved Bull Rush is a prerequisite.
I believe the feats described above are sufficient to demonstrate that under normal circumstances, creatures do not have the option of moving, bull rushing, and attacking their opponents. The three above feats give special abilities that would enable a character to make a single move, and then attack and bull rush in the same round. If all characters could charge, making a double move, and then bull rush and attack, these feats would likely not exist, or would provide far greater benefits.
Fanged Fremont
04-17-06, 05:02 PM You wanna charge, bullrush, and attack at the same time? Do what I do, become a warforged juggernaught and take the combat brute, brute fighting, and shock trooper feats and the second warforged racial substitution level. Armor spikes and powerful charge feat for the win.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
userprop 04-16-06, 09:29 PM	bull rush says "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge" and charge says "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action" so... does this mean that you can initiate a charge, make an attack AND push them back? and, by extension, does that mean a dire lion could charge, bull rush someone back, make a full attack (with pounce), initiate a grapple with improved grab, and do rake damage, all in 1 round, even if it is under the effect of "slow" or nauseated by a "stinking cloud"? as usual, I'm looking for RAW here, not just what you think your GM would/should decide.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-16-06, 09:46 PM	No. The bull-rush counts as the attack at the end of the charge.
userprop 04-16-06, 09:48 PM	No. The bull-rush counts as the attack at the end of the charge. why? you've got to back this kind of thing up, not just opine.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-16-06, 09:58 PM	"you only get to make one attack on a charge." Read the entire section in the PHB when you want to learn about something. The last sentence usually contains something interesting.
draconic_swine 04-16-06, 10:40 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush): When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. So no, you cannot charge, push somebody back, and attack. You've gotta choose between attacking and pushing at the end of your charge.
userprop 04-16-06, 10:59 PM	"you only get to make one attack on a charge." Read the entire section in the PHB when you want to learn about something. The last sentence usually contains something interesting. relax, you dont need be insulting. anyhow, i dont see that as prohibiting the above scenario, first, there are ways to get multiple attacks on a charge (the dire lion in my example can, for example, because it has pounce), but moreover, bull rushing isnt really an attack, so i dont see that caveat as prohibiting the action. "When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him." So no, you cannot charge, push somebody back, and attack. You've gotta choose between attacking and charging at the end of your charge. I assume you meant "pushing" instead of "charging" in that last sentence? anyways, the bull rush isnt damaging him, the attack (which is seperate) is damaging him. the statement "instead of damaging" points out the fact that bull rushes do not deal damage; there is no damage dealt when the target is moved, but that doesnt prohibit a bull rush from being part of a charge with a seperate attack (or multiple attacks with pounce, etc) which attempts to deal damage. "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge" clearly the bull rush itself doesnt deal damage, but what i see in the rules is that the bull rush can be part of a charge. it doesnt say "instead of the attack in a charge". you might make the argument that since it says "an attack", thats what the bull rush counts as, however it still suggests that its in addition to the attack from the charge, since "an attack" is ONLY saying what type of standard action it counts as, and doesn't apply when it is made as part of a charge.
draconic_swine 04-16-06, 11:54 PM	Yes, I did mean to say "pushing" instead of "charging". Mistake corrected :) Not really anything else strictly spelled out in the rules, but more arguments (based on logic and extrapolation) on why you can't bull rush and attack at the end of a charge: 1) A bull rush is a special attack action that replaces your normal attack(s) in a round, therefore it replaces the attack at the end of a charge. 2) It's too powerful. Performing a bull rush with an attack after a charge combines a standard action with a full-round action. This clearly allows you to do too much in a single round. 3) Charging provides a bonus to attacks and bull rushing due to the momentum you build up. How are you supposed to do both successfully at the end of a charge? All the energy you built up with the charge will be spent immediately on either the attack or the bull rush. 4) The rules don't outright say you can combine them. While this is a weak argument (and can just as easily be used against me), I still think it's a valid point. Allowing you to attack and bull rush brings up other issues, such as which comes first? Would the bull rush come first, or the attack? I think if the designers intended for this to be possible, they would have explained things.
DaMullet 04-17-06, 01:21 AM	Think about it this way: Bull Rush= standard action Single attack= Standard action Charge = Double move+melee attack/equivalent standard action (of which there is only one ((bull Rush))) Break it down and it makes more sense.
Mitchell 04-17-06, 02:29 AM	You only get one attack from a charge anyway... From the SRD: Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above). Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. So even if you were otherwise entitled to 100 attacks, if you charge, you get one, and if that attack is a bull rush, then that's what it is, so that takes care of that lion scenario. Anyway, the rules don't bother telling you everything that you can't do. It's impractical, and it's assumed that players won't feel that if they are killed they get to explode in a 500hd fireball that ignores all resistances and covers 10 square miles... Even though it's not in the rules. :)
userprop 04-17-06, 03:28 AM	Anyway, the rules don't bother telling you everything that you can't do. It's impractical, and it's assumed that players won't feel that if they are killed they get to explode in a 500hd fireball that ignores all resistances and covers 10 square miles... Even though it's not in the rules. :) i see it differently, its not an issue of the rules NOT saying what you can do, but in this case, the rules specificly say you can do it. they say that a bull rush is either a standard action or part of a charge. they DON'T say its the attack in the charge, they DON'T say it takes the place. using the "what the rules dont say shouldn't be implied" arguement, you DO get to bull rush in the charge, not in exclusion to your attack. to argue that the rules say you can't you're arguing that you can't becaue they don't say you can, which we both agree is not sound basis for an arguement. also, if a lion doesn't get multiple attacks on a charge, what exactly is your interpretation of the ability "pounce"?
DaMullet 04-17-06, 08:54 AM	Here's my take on it. Pounce: Ex. If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. Normally, you are limited to a single attack (which may be a bull rush if you want) after charging, with a higher mod to your roll. Lions, as an extraordinary ability, are granted the ability to make a full attack after charging (which may also include two Rake attack). So, Human Fighter one charges= Single attack/bull rush attempt Lion charges= Full attack (2 claw, 1 bite, 2 rake)rake attacks are bonuses not normally granted as part of a full attack.
userprop 04-17-06, 09:41 AM	OMG, i wish I'd never included the lion thing :P the question I'm asking has nothing to do with pounce or lions or w/e. the only reason I asked for Mitchel's interpretation of pounce was to point out that it looked like he was making an erroneous statement. the question is bull rushing as part of a charge, and whether or not you get the attack. again, what i see is that a charge is a specific and singular action that includes specific movement and melee maneuvers, and that a bull rush is neither, but is allowed to be executed as part of said charge action, AS A PART OF THE ENTIRETY, neither excluding or replacing any of the specific maneuvers therein. people have claimed that this isnt supported by the rules, that I'm finding proof in the lack of a specific denial, but i dont see that, in fact i see that a denial of this operation is unsuported, and that you have to read more vaguries into the text to prove it prohibited than to prove it as allowed. i see a specific inclusion of the combination, and no specific denial. thus by simplicity and logic it seems a legal combination. as for balance or intent, i'm not a fool and so won't pretend to see every angle and loophole, but i feel that its not broken, since it either provokes an AOO or requires a feat, and still doesn't accomplish much in most circumstances, due to the restraints on targeting charges the the miss chance on your ally's AOOs. as for original intention, i dont know, but i certainly dont see this as distasteful. who can't imagine a barbarian shoving some hapless foe around in a berserk rush before laying into him with an axe to the face. of course, you can argue whether or not it is intended, tasteful, or broken, but thats really beside the point, having looked it over and considered multiple arguments, i dont see any reason why this isnt a legal operation. moreover, this is exactly the sort of thing that would have made it into the errata or faq by now, and its absence, along with the clarity of the rules supporting it lead me to beleive its not illegal. i just dont beleive im the first or only person to consider this. seems like a natural thing one would look into after reading how bull rushes work, at least thats what i did.
Ash the blackcowl 04-17-06, 10:11 AM	bull rush says "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge" and charge says "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action" so... does this mean that you can initiate a charge, make an attack AND push them back? No, it means "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action" I suppose it could say attack action, but no where does it say you can charge, attack and bull rush. and, by extension, does that mean a dire lion could charge, bull rush someone back, make a full attack (with pounce), initiate a grapple with improved grab, and do rake damage, all in 1 round, even if it is under the effect of "slow" or nauseated by a "stinking cloud"? Now, I might give you props here. If the dire lion is allowed a full attack he could substitute any attack action for either of his claw or bite attacks (I wouldnt allow it for the rake). If the creature is slowed he cant charge, as charge is a full-round action and the effects of slow limit him to a standard action or a move action. Nauseated creatures can only take a move action so, no a nauseated creature could not take any of these actions either.
userprop 04-17-06, 11:03 AM	If the creature is slowed he cant charge, as charge is a full-round action and the effects of slow limit him to a standard action or a move action. Nauseated creatures can only take a move action so, no a nauseated creature could not take any of these actions either. actually, you can: "If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn." you know this by heart if your games have lots of zombies :P
draconic_swine 04-17-06, 11:43 AM	as for balance or intent, i'm not a fool and so won't pretend to see every angle and loophole, but i feel that its not broken, since it either provokes an AOO or requires a feat What feat are we talking about here? I'm not sure how you do not see this as broken. In a standard round, you can, among other things: move twice move and attack once (or other equivalent action, such as tripping, sundering, bull rushing, etc.) make two attacks (if your BAB is high enough) with only a five-foot step for movement as a full round action The only way you can make a single attack while moving twice your speed is by taking a special full-round action. Adding a bull rush to this puts you way over the top. What you're asking to do is the equivalent of taking a full attack action while moving twice your speed. And you can justify that under the rules how, exactly?
ajb47 04-17-06, 02:09 PM	again, what i see is that a charge is a specific and singular action that includes specific movement and melee maneuvers, and that a bull rush is neither, but is allowed to be executed as part of said charge action, AS A PART OF THE ENTIRETY, neither excluding or replacing any of the specific maneuvers therein. Actually, right at the beginning of the description of Bull Rush it says: You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. A Bull Rush is an attack action. It just also happens to be an action you can take as part of the full round action of Charging. people have claimed that this isnt supported by the rules, that I'm finding proof in the lack of a specific denial, but i dont see that, in fact i see that a denial of this operation is unsuported, and that you have to read more vaguries into the text to prove it prohibited than to prove it as allowed. i see a specific inclusion of the combination, and no specific denial. thus by simplicity and logic it seems a legal combination. I didn't have to read anything into that sentence at the beginning of Bull Rush and I never once thought you could charge, bull rush, and attack in one round. You can't Bull Rush and make an attack in the same round even without Charging. AJ
rironin 04-17-06, 02:10 PM	why? you've got to back this kind of thing up, not just opine.I have been making a rather exhaustive search for documentation that backs up the claim that this is not allowed. There is startlingly little, aside from the previously mentioned common-sense interpretations of the stated rules for bull rushing and charging - that is, bull rushes are normally made in place of an attack, and when a bull rush is made at the end of a charge, it is made in place of the melee attack, not in addition to it. As you've demonstrated, however, it's difficult to completely nail this down due to the particulars of the RAW. Still, I do not believe you've discovered some sort of dormant "easter egg" in the rules that no one has noticed up until now - that is, I don't think your interpretation is what was intended by the game designers, or it would've come up already. Instead, most people (myself included) simply feel that our interpretation is self-evident. Still, I went looking for an example of a published feat or ability that enabled creatures to do something similar to the action you've described, since such a feat or ability would demonstrate that creatures are not normally able to accomplish this. There are several examples that come close: Races of Stone - A feat described here has several prerequisites including Improved Bull Rush, and enables a character who is raging to knock an opponent to the ground at the end of a bull rush if he takes a penalty. If creatures could charge, bull rush, and attack normally, then this feat provides only marginal benefits - in fact, Improved Trip would be almost strictly better than this feat if the rules worked as you claim: the character could charge, bull rush, trip and then attack its opponent. Races of the Wild - A tactical feat in this book enables creatures to make a single attack as a full-round action that lets them make a free bull rush attempt if they hit, assuming several conditions are met, and they can only push the opponent back 5 feet. Again, if all creatures could charge, attack and bull rush, then this tactical ability has only marginal benefits. Miniatures Handbook - Another feat in this book enables a character to make a free bull rush attempt once per round after a successful attack. Again, the opponent only moves 5 feet. Improved Bull Rush is a prerequisite. I believe the feats described above are sufficient to demonstrate that under normal circumstances, creatures do not have the option of moving, bull rushing, and attacking their opponents. The three above feats give special abilities that would enable a character to make a single move, and then attack and bull rush in the same round. If all characters could charge, making a double move, and then bull rush and attack, these feats would likely not exist, or would provide far greater benefits.
Fanged Fremont 04-17-06, 05:02 PM	You wanna charge, bullrush, and attack at the same time? Do what I do, become a warforged juggernaught and take the combat brute, brute fighting, and shock trooper feats and the second warforged racial substitution level. Armor spikes and powerful charge feat for the win.