Bull Rushing into an occupied square [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rushing into an occupied square [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZerodotJander
10-24-05, 12:56 PM What happens if you bull rush an enemy, and the square behind him is occupied? If you have the Shock Trooper feat, you can make free trip attempts against both to try to knock them prone into the same square, but what if you don't have Shock Trooper?
tarkin
10-24-05, 02:14 PM Do you mean just occupied by another being? They are forced into that square and neither they nor the other being can take any action until they leave the square.

While the rules do state the obviously ridiculous statement:
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

This rule is clearly violated several places in the WoTC core book, including Grappling and riding. It is in my opinion, the silliest statement that WoTC made and has not Erratified.

You pretty much have to interpreate that as really meaning: "When you end your turn in the same square as another person, if you are not grappling or mounting/being mounted, using a special feat, neither can take combat actions beside movement until one of you leaves the square."

Otherwise, no one could ever have sex, and horses could not pair up to pull a wagon 10ft wide wagon (when in combat horses take up 10x10, so if you use the rule as is, only a single horse could pull a 10ft wide wagon, which is silly).
GhostStepper
10-24-05, 02:42 PM You pretty much have to interpreate that as really meaning: "When you end your turn in the same square as another person, if you are not grappling or mounting/being mounted, using a special feat, neither can take combat actions beside movement until one of you leaves the square."

Otherwise, no one could ever have sex...

Does that provoke an attack of opportunity or is there an "Improved" feat i can take to circumvent that? ;)

Come to think of it this loophole would allow for some munchkinish abuse that i never thought of. Sure really big creatures and really small creatures can share the same space but they have to be grappling/mounted etc.., just like tarkin mentioned. Bullrush that kobold into the dragon's space (or better yet a big baddy that cant fly) and gather round! everyone gets attacks of op since the dragon cant do anything but move...

i must be missing something about big and little creatures in combat since thats super cheezy
kjenks
10-24-05, 03:44 PM SRD
===
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
===

So if the attacker does not have the Shock Trooper feat, the defender just moves to the last legal position. Since that square is likely to be occupied by the attacker, the defender might just move to the closest legal position, but if there are two or more legal squares equidistant from the defender, the DM would determine which square he moves to randomly.

SRD
===
Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
===

There is some silliness to these rules. What happens when you bull rush a kobold who's standing at the end of a long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor? He ends up standing behind you!

Now picture this: in that long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor, there are a hundred kobolds, each in his own square. You fly above the last one in the dead end and bull rush him. Where does he go? A hundred squares away!

The DM would have to step in and impose a little common sense, but normally, nobody ends up prone, nobody is forced into inaction, and your kobold/dragon trick would just push the kobold around and have no effect on the dragon.
GhostStepper
10-24-05, 05:11 PM SRD
===
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
===

So if the attacker does not have the Shock Trooper feat, the defender just moves to the last legal position. Since that square is likely to be occupied by the attacker, the defender might just move to the closest legal position, but if there are two or more legal squares equidistant from the defender, the DM would determine which square he moves to randomly.

SRD
===
Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
===

There is some silliness to these rules. What happens when you bull rush a kobold who's standing at the end of a long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor? He ends up standing behind you!

Now picture this: in that long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor, there are a hundred kobolds, each in his own square. You fly above the last one in the dead end and bull rush him. Where does he go? A hundred squares away!

The DM would have to step in and impose a little common sense, but normally, nobody ends up prone, nobody is forced into inaction, and your kobold/dragon trick would just push the kobold around and have no effect on the dragon.

i was pretty much thinking about the same silliness you mentioned about moving the creature to the nearest legal space since my group was discussing that exact scenario. Its possible the have a situation where there are absolutly no available spaces. lol Just be glad your not laying prone in a square occupied by a kobold in that long hallway. Without special feats or abilities you wouldnt be able to get up till you left the square and of course that would jsut leave you in a similar postition.

It would be a funny way to legally teleport to another room if you could somehow set up the bull rush situation as a PC. Standing in a room with creatures in every square, a gargoyle tries to swoop down and bullrush you. Having no where to go near by you suddenly appear 50 feet away in the closest available space, which happens to be in another room...lol
Nom
10-24-05, 06:32 PM While the rules do state the obviously ridiculous statement:
You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless

This rule is clearly violated several places in the WoTC core book, including Grappling and riding. It is in my opinion, the silliest statement that WoTC made and has not Erratified.

You pretty much have to interpreate that as really meaning: "When you end your turn in the same square as another person, if you are not grappling or mounting/being mounted, using a special feat, neither can take combat actions beside movement until one of you leaves the square."Tarkin, "well duh!". There are plenty of situations where the rules state "X" as a general principle, and then other rules create exceptions. About 1/3 of the entire Feats chapter does this.

What they are missing is "or prone". At several points the rules suggest that it is quite legal to have a non-prone and a prone character in the same square, which means that it should be quite legal for a character to enter the square of a prone friendly character. But I couldn't find anything that says this explicitly.

Actually, they probably should have included a section on "prone" in the "movement, position and distance" rules.
Otherwise, no one could ever have sex, and horses could not pair up to pull a wagon 10ft wide wagon (when in combat horses take up 10x10, so if you use the rule as is, only a single horse could pull a 10ft wide wagon, which is silly).Actually, the shared space rule is obviously only intended to apply to combatants in the tactical situation. See DMG pg 20.

As for Bull Rush, my reading of the precedents is that a creature that is forced to enter an illegal square drops prone. See for example what happens in PH pg 154 if the attacker fails and cannot legally enter the space he has come from. The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead cover situations where an AoO (or trap or similar) ends movement in a square that a character shouldn't be able to occupy.

Personally, I'd rather leave the square double-stacked and just apply the squeezing rules (see also DMG II).
GhostStepper
10-24-05, 07:05 PM As for Bull Rush, my reading of the precedents is that a creature that is forced to enter an illegal square drops prone.

Ooo! Fun! whenever you flank somebody you can just push him into your buddy's square and knock him down. Then when your foe tries to crawl away both of you get attacks of opportnity and he gets -4 to AC. thats even better than the flanking bonus, plus you get to use it on those pesky improved uncanny dodgers.
kjenks
10-24-05, 07:07 PM As for Bull Rush, my reading of the precedents is that a creature that is forced to enter an illegal square drops prone. See for example what happens in PH pg 154 if the attacker fails and cannot legally enter the space he has come from. The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead cover situations where an AoO (or trap or similar) ends movement in a square that a character shouldn't be able to occupy.

Read it again. Only the attacker can fall prone in a normal bull rush:

SRD
===
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.
===

The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead covers various situations where you end up where you shouldn't.

Here's another one: You're flying above a crowded combat, when your Fly spell is dispelled. You fall slowly into the crowd. If the square below you is occupied, where do you end up? Answer: The nearest legal space.

If Nom were reading this correctly, there would be no need for the Shock Trooper/Domino maneuver, since that would be the default maneuver for everyone who makes a bull rush. (I'm disappointed, Nom; your reading skills are better than that.)
GhostStepper
10-24-05, 07:23 PM If Nom were reading this correctly, there would be no need for the Shock Trooper/Domino maneuver, since that would be the default maneuver for everyone who makes a bull rush. (I'm disappointed, Nom; your reading skills are better than that.)

Its true that the rules only say the attacker can fall prone when loosing the check but i can understand how Nom could come to his conclusion since it makes sense that if it works for one creature in a bull rush why not the other? Of course the rules dont allow that or there would be some abuse like i mentioned earlier
Nom
10-24-05, 10:52 PM Read it again. Only the attacker can fall prone in a normal bull rush:

SRD
===
If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.
===

If Nom were reading this correctly, there would be no need for the Shock Trooper/Domino maneuver, since that would be the default maneuver for everyone who makes a bull rush. (I'm disappointed, Nom; your reading skills are better than that.)(1) The rules specify what happens to an attacker in a failed bull rush. They don't specify what happens to the defender if a successful bull rush pushes them into an "illegal" square (wall or character). Yes, the bull rush rules are technically broken.

(2) I don't know what the Shock Trooper / Domino manoeuvre is, and it's not specifically relevant when discussing the PH ruleset.

(3) I know how to read rules. The word was "precedent", which is a "functionally similar" ruling used when the rules in question don't cover the situation.
The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead covers various situations where you end up where you shouldn't.Somewhat. They specifically apply when "a miniature ends its movement in a place it's not allowed to stop". It's quite clear from both the text and the example (PH) that it applies when a miniature legally enters the square but is then prevented from leaving it. In the case of a failed bull rush or overrun, you fall prone if the square you try to return to is already occupied.

You'll also note that the rules say "the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position if there's a legal position that's closer" (emphasis mine). Neither applies to a bull rushed target.
Here's another one: You're flying above a crowded combat, when your Fly spell is dispelled. You fall slowly into the crowd. If the square below you is occupied, where do you end up? Answer: The nearest legal space.Incorrect. RAW, you cannot enter the square (cube?) and thus ... ? By the explicit letter of the rule, you should end up in the cube above the one you would fall into, since it the last position available that is legal according to the stacking rules. The "accidentally ending movement in an occupied square" never comes into play, since you are not allowed to enter the square / cube occupied by another figure.

Bull rush has a similar problem. The rules simply do not cover the situation where you must leave a legal square but have nowhere to go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZerodotJander 10-24-05, 12:56 PM	What happens if you bull rush an enemy, and the square behind him is occupied? If you have the Shock Trooper feat, you can make free trip attempts against both to try to knock them prone into the same square, but what if you don't have Shock Trooper?
tarkin 10-24-05, 02:14 PM	Do you mean just occupied by another being? They are forced into that square and neither they nor the other being can take any action until they leave the square. While the rules do state the obviously ridiculous statement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. This rule is clearly violated several places in the WoTC core book, including Grappling and riding. It is in my opinion, the silliest statement that WoTC made and has not Erratified. You pretty much have to interpreate that as really meaning: "When you end your turn in the same square as another person, if you are not grappling or mounting/being mounted, using a special feat, neither can take combat actions beside movement until one of you leaves the square." Otherwise, no one could ever have sex, and horses could not pair up to pull a wagon 10ft wide wagon (when in combat horses take up 10x10, so if you use the rule as is, only a single horse could pull a 10ft wide wagon, which is silly).
GhostStepper 10-24-05, 02:42 PM	You pretty much have to interpreate that as really meaning: "When you end your turn in the same square as another person, if you are not grappling or mounting/being mounted, using a special feat, neither can take combat actions beside movement until one of you leaves the square." Otherwise, no one could ever have sex... Does that provoke an attack of opportunity or is there an "Improved" feat i can take to circumvent that? ;) Come to think of it this loophole would allow for some munchkinish abuse that i never thought of. Sure really big creatures and really small creatures can share the same space but they have to be grappling/mounted etc.., just like tarkin mentioned. Bullrush that kobold into the dragon's space (or better yet a big baddy that cant fly) and gather round! everyone gets attacks of op since the dragon cant do anything but move... i must be missing something about big and little creatures in combat since thats super cheezy
kjenks 10-24-05, 03:44 PM	SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === So if the attacker does not have the Shock Trooper feat, the defender just moves to the last legal position. Since that square is likely to be occupied by the attacker, the defender might just move to the closest legal position, but if there are two or more legal squares equidistant from the defender, the DM would determine which square he moves to randomly. SRD === Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die. === There is some silliness to these rules. What happens when you bull rush a kobold who's standing at the end of a long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor? He ends up standing behind you! Now picture this: in that long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor, there are a hundred kobolds, each in his own square. You fly above the last one in the dead end and bull rush him. Where does he go? A hundred squares away! The DM would have to step in and impose a little common sense, but normally, nobody ends up prone, nobody is forced into inaction, and your kobold/dragon trick would just push the kobold around and have no effect on the dragon.
GhostStepper 10-24-05, 05:11 PM	SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === So if the attacker does not have the Shock Trooper feat, the defender just moves to the last legal position. Since that square is likely to be occupied by the attacker, the defender might just move to the closest legal position, but if there are two or more legal squares equidistant from the defender, the DM would determine which square he moves to randomly. SRD === Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die. === There is some silliness to these rules. What happens when you bull rush a kobold who's standing at the end of a long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor? He ends up standing behind you! Now picture this: in that long, dead-end, 5-ft-wide corridor, there are a hundred kobolds, each in his own square. You fly above the last one in the dead end and bull rush him. Where does he go? A hundred squares away! The DM would have to step in and impose a little common sense, but normally, nobody ends up prone, nobody is forced into inaction, and your kobold/dragon trick would just push the kobold around and have no effect on the dragon. i was pretty much thinking about the same silliness you mentioned about moving the creature to the nearest legal space since my group was discussing that exact scenario. Its possible the have a situation where there are absolutly no available spaces. lol Just be glad your not laying prone in a square occupied by a kobold in that long hallway. Without special feats or abilities you wouldnt be able to get up till you left the square and of course that would jsut leave you in a similar postition. It would be a funny way to legally teleport to another room if you could somehow set up the bull rush situation as a PC. Standing in a room with creatures in every square, a gargoyle tries to swoop down and bullrush you. Having no where to go near by you suddenly appear 50 feet away in the closest available space, which happens to be in another room...lol
Nom 10-24-05, 06:32 PM	While the rules do state the obviously ridiculous statement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless This rule is clearly violated several places in the WoTC core book, including Grappling and riding. It is in my opinion, the silliest statement that WoTC made and has not Erratified. You pretty much have to interpreate that as really meaning: "When you end your turn in the same square as another person, if you are not grappling or mounting/being mounted, using a special feat, neither can take combat actions beside movement until one of you leaves the square."Tarkin, "well duh!". There are plenty of situations where the rules state "X" as a general principle, and then other rules create exceptions. About 1/3 of the entire Feats chapter does this. What they are missing is "or prone". At several points the rules suggest that it is quite legal to have a non-prone and a prone character in the same square, which means that it should be quite legal for a character to enter the square of a prone friendly character. But I couldn't find anything that says this explicitly. Actually, they probably should have included a section on "prone" in the "movement, position and distance" rules. Otherwise, no one could ever have sex, and horses could not pair up to pull a wagon 10ft wide wagon (when in combat horses take up 10x10, so if you use the rule as is, only a single horse could pull a 10ft wide wagon, which is silly).Actually, the shared space rule is obviously only intended to apply to combatants in the tactical situation. See DMG pg 20. As for Bull Rush, my reading of the precedents is that a creature that is forced to enter an illegal square drops prone. See for example what happens in PH pg 154 if the attacker fails and cannot legally enter the space he has come from. The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead cover situations where an AoO (or trap or similar) ends movement in a square that a character shouldn't be able to occupy. Personally, I'd rather leave the square double-stacked and just apply the squeezing rules (see also DMG II).
GhostStepper 10-24-05, 07:05 PM	As for Bull Rush, my reading of the precedents is that a creature that is forced to enter an illegal square drops prone. Ooo! Fun! whenever you flank somebody you can just push him into your buddy's square and knock him down. Then when your foe tries to crawl away both of you get attacks of opportnity and he gets -4 to AC. thats even better than the flanking bonus, plus you get to use it on those pesky improved uncanny dodgers.
kjenks 10-24-05, 07:07 PM	As for Bull Rush, my reading of the precedents is that a creature that is forced to enter an illegal square drops prone. See for example what happens in PH pg 154 if the attacker fails and cannot legally enter the space he has come from. The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead cover situations where an AoO (or trap or similar) ends movement in a square that a character shouldn't be able to occupy. Read it again. Only the attacker can fall prone in a normal bull rush: SRD === If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. === The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead covers various situations where you end up where you shouldn't. Here's another one: You're flying above a crowded combat, when your Fly spell is dispelled. You fall slowly into the crowd. If the square below you is occupied, where do you end up? Answer: The nearest legal space. If Nom were reading this correctly, there would be no need for the Shock Trooper/Domino maneuver, since that would be the default maneuver for everyone who makes a bull rush. (I'm disappointed, Nom; your reading skills are better than that.)
GhostStepper 10-24-05, 07:23 PM	If Nom were reading this correctly, there would be no need for the Shock Trooper/Domino maneuver, since that would be the default maneuver for everyone who makes a bull rush. (I'm disappointed, Nom; your reading skills are better than that.) Its true that the rules only say the attacker can fall prone when loosing the check but i can understand how Nom could come to his conclusion since it makes sense that if it works for one creature in a bull rush why not the other? Of course the rules dont allow that or there would be some abuse like i mentioned earlier
Nom 10-24-05, 10:52 PM	Read it again. Only the attacker can fall prone in a normal bull rush: SRD === If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space. === If Nom were reading this correctly, there would be no need for the Shock Trooper/Domino maneuver, since that would be the default maneuver for everyone who makes a bull rush. (I'm disappointed, Nom; your reading skills are better than that.)(1) The rules specify what happens to an attacker in a failed bull rush. They don't specify what happens to the defender if a successful bull rush pushes them into an "illegal" square (wall or character). Yes, the bull rush rules are technically broken. (2) I don't know what the Shock Trooper / Domino manoeuvre is, and it's not specifically relevant when discussing the PH ruleset. (3) I know how to read rules. The word was "precedent", which is a "functionally similar" ruling used when the rules in question don't cover the situation. The "accidentally ending movement in an illegal square" rules instead covers various situations where you end up where you shouldn't.Somewhat. They specifically apply when "a miniature ends its movement in a place it's not allowed to stop". It's quite clear from both the text and the example (PH) that it applies when a miniature legally enters the square but is then prevented from leaving it. In the case of a failed bull rush or overrun, you fall prone if the square you try to return to is already occupied. You'll also note that the rules say "the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position if there's a legal position that's closer" (emphasis mine). Neither applies to a bull rushed target. Here's another one: You're flying above a crowded combat, when your Fly spell is dispelled. You fall slowly into the crowd. If the square below you is occupied, where do you end up? Answer: The nearest legal space.Incorrect. RAW, you cannot enter the square (cube?) and thus ... ? By the explicit letter of the rule, you should end up in the cube above the one you would fall into, since it the last position available that is legal according to the stacking rules. The "accidentally ending movement in an occupied square" never comes into play, since you are not allowed to enter the square / cube occupied by another figure. Bull rush has a similar problem. The rules simply do not cover the situation where you must leave a legal square but have nowhere to go.