Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BreakLancaster 04-27-07, 07:10 PM	Is it possible to Bull Rush someone into a wall or other solid object in order to cause damage? If so, what are the consequences and results? If not, why not?:confused: Also, are their any changes based on size differences? (aside from the normal changes to the opposed strength checks) My DM and have agreed that I can Bull Rush someone into a wall and deal them 1d6 dmg for every 10 feet that I bull rush. Is this fair? What changes would you make?:D
Holy_Beholder 04-27-07, 07:30 PM	Every ten feet you move them is a rip off. Honestly, if you can move them 20 ft, then you probably have a ridiculous strength. So what I would do is 1d6+str bonus+size bonus to grapple. This pins the opponent too. I would also allow a reflex save against the damage you deal to get out at the last minute. This gets the size bonus for armor class added to it. If they had an AoO they could try to slam you into the wall instead.
Vegepygmy 04-27-07, 07:52 PM	I would probably let you inflict damage equal to an unarmed strike: 1d3 + Str bonus (nonlethal) in most cases.
BreakLancaster 04-27-07, 08:01 PM	I would probably let you inflict damage equal to an unarmed strike: 1d3 + Str bonus (nonlethal) in most cases. That seems a little low to me. I mean, being struck with an improvised weapon deals lethal damage, and I imagine being thrown into a wall should too. I do like the idea of adding the strength modifier. I don't know why that didn't pop into my head in the first place!
Oakes 04-27-07, 08:07 PM	Taken from the Monster Feat, minus everything but the similar situation. AWESOME BLOW [GENERAL, FIGHTER] Benefit: ... If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle. With the feat, you're doing the damage of the attack as well as the bonus damage listed. Without the feat, it would be my ruling you're doing the bonus damage, which you normally don't get with a Bull Rush anyway. Getting direct damage from a tactical movement is impressive in itself. If you're doing some serious bullrushing over this, I would rule an additional 1d6 per 5 feet you would normally push the creature back before its movement was stopped by an obstacle.
BreakLancaster 04-27-07, 08:20 PM	Taken from the Monster Feat, minus everything but the similar situation. AWESOME BLOW [GENERAL, FIGHTER] Benefit: ... If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle. With the feat, you're doing the damage of the attack as well as the bonus damage listed. Without the feat, it would be my ruling you're doing the bonus damage, which you normally don't get with a Bull Rush anyway. Getting direct damage from a tactical movement is impressive in itself. If you're doing some serious bullrushing over this, I would rule an additional 1d6 per 5 feet you would normally push the creature back before its movement was stopped by an obstacle. That sounds very fair, and thanks for pulling up the rule for me, so that I can show it to my DM. I also really like the idea of extra damage for a halted bull rush. This particular character of mine is a Warforged Juggernaut, and spends most of his time bullrushing opponents. So having this cleared up is really great. On a side note, you're signature if frickin' hilarious, and I bow to you vastly superior HTML skillz.
Oakes 04-27-07, 08:32 PM	If that's the way you're going, it might not be a bad idea to look up that Monster Feat for your own use. Your DM may well rule Bull Rushing a viable offshoot for feats like Weapon Focus, the same way [Grapple] and [Ray] are, as well. Be sure to bring up whether the additional damage affects the obstacle, too. This may apply to other creatures, or you may find yourself accidentally obliterating doors you didn't mean to. Off-topic: Glad someone finds it amusing. Also, the signature is just the vB code the board supports. Just take a look at the Forum FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/misc.php?do=bbcode) on it.
Raumz 04-27-07, 09:50 PM	My house rule is 1D6 damage for every 5 feet you bullrush them PAST the wall. For example. If you bullrush a monster 5 feet into a wall but have the possibility of bullrushing another 10 feet you get 2d6 damage. Also I say if the monster is already pressed upagainst the wall from a previosu bullrush that same turn or something else you get 1D6+1 for each 5 feet you can bullrush them past the wall.
jacobi289 04-27-07, 10:13 PM	If damage is what you want, bullrush them past an ally with the Combat Reflexes feat.
kjenks 04-27-07, 11:03 PM	I just don't get it. I see this same nonsense every month or two. Why do guys want this house rule? Is it so important to the game, and it happens so often, that you feel the crying need for a house rule? Or do you guys just make up house rules at the drop of a hat? The rules don't impose any damage from getting shoved into a wall. In fact, if you end up in an illegal square (like inside a wall), there is already a rule you should be following. SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === That's it. Just that. If you get shoved into a wall, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. If more than one location is equally close (including those 5 ft. diagonals), choose one at random. (There's a rule for that, too.) Sheesh. You don't take damage from charging full-speed into an iron golem when you're attacking it with an unarmed strike -- or with a Bull Rush. Why should the iron golem take damage from a low-speed impact with a wall? (DR would not protect an iron golem from such collisions; DR only reduces damage from weapons, not from walls or falls.)
Vegepygmy 04-27-07, 11:55 PM	That seems a little low to me. I mean, being struck with an improvised weapon deals lethal damage, and I imagine being thrown into a wall should too.Really? People get pushed and thrown into walls during fights all the time in the real world, and they almost never die from it.
Bantam 04-28-07, 04:04 AM	Check out the Dungeon Crasher varient ability for fighters in the Dungeonscape book. Fighters can bull rush an opponent into walls for 4d6 + 2x Strength bonus damage at fighter level 2 and 8d6 + 3x Strength bonus at fighter level 6. You lose the fighter bonus feats at level 2 and 6 though.
BreakLancaster 04-28-07, 06:20 AM	Really? People get pushed and thrown into walls during fights all the time in the real world, and they almost never die from it. Well...I would say that most often people who are pushed into walls during fights haven't been pushed 15 feet or so into the wall, and most often, people are pushed into a wall by a creature 6 to 10 feet taller than them. I understand that most times, people flying into walls doesn't hurt them. But there are times when people are pushed into objects and end up breaking ribs, especially if the pusher is much larger and much stronger (i.e. a higher bull rush) creature.
Luis_Dragunov 04-28-07, 10:32 AM	I'd say you should take a page out of d20 Modern's rules on car collisions and inflict upon the character half the damage he inflicts on the object on collision (treat the character as an improvised weapon of its size)... at least that's how I think that works. Anyway, for the strength check, see the weight of the object and make the attacker make a strength check to move it, not an opposing strength check. Ta-da! Problem solved.
Steevo 04-28-07, 10:45 AM	This very same question cropped up a few months back. Here was the system I suggested at that time (and my current house rule on the subject: ) Bull rushing someone into a wall: If the wall is thin or loosely constructed, there's a good chance it will simply collapse, causing no appreciable damage to anyone and the victim of the bull's rush falls prone on the other side. Assuming the wall is thick and hard enough to resist impact, and the attacker can push the victim back at least 10 feet before slamming into the wall (meaning he must beat the victim by 10 - he must move 10 feet and still be able to push against the wall, another 5 feet), the victim of the bull rush takes bashing damage equal to 1d4 + (attacker's weight/10.) Fort Save DC 15 for half. Note that this is the attacker's base weight, not including any gear. At the end of the attack, the victim is standing in the space before the wall, the attacker is in the next space out (basically, the damage for the slam replaces that 5 ft of movement.) The bull rush is immediately ended, even if the attacker could have "pushed farther." Characters with armor/shield spikes may petition to make this damage bashing and piercing. They do not, however, gain a free attack with thier spikes. This is mainly a balance issue, since bull rush should not grant a free attack, imho. Bull rushing someone into another person: No damage is dealt to anyone. The second person (the one not directly involved) gets a Reflex Save DC 10 to sidestep into an adjacent space (DC 15 if that person is currently flatfooted.) If he fails, he falls prone. The attacker and his victim keep moving normally. It is theoretically possible for the second person to sidestep backward (ie: to remain in the path of the bull's rush.) It would be stupid, but it would be possible (and sometimes there might not be a choice.) In this case the second person automatically falls prone if and when the bull's rush intrudes on his new square. More lenient DMs might allow for further Reflex Saves, but I don't since I prefer to place a limit on how much "free" movement such a character can gain from these circumstances. Upon reading this new thread, I'm thinking I might change the damage against a wall to Xd4 where X is the number of additional 5ft spaces the victim could have been pushed after colliding with the wall, or the attacker's Str bonus, whichever is less. I'm thinking about it, but I'm not sure, because I like to keep my house rules as clean and simple as possible while helping to replicate situations not covered by the official rules.
BreakLancaster 04-28-07, 12:15 PM	This very same question cropped up a few months back. Here was the system I suggested at that time (and my current house rule on the subject: ) Upon reading this new thread, I'm thinking I might change the damage against a wall to Xd4 where X is the number of additional 5ft spaces the victim could have been pushed after colliding with the wall, or the attacker's Str bonus, whichever is less. I'm thinking about it, but I'm not sure, because I like to keep my house rules as clean and simple as possible while helping to replicate situations not covered by the official rules. I think I am going to try to convince my DM of the Xd6 damage rule as well, but only if the target was moved from at least 10 (maybe 5) feet away from the wall. What caught my eye was this.... the victim of the bull rush takes bashing damage equal to 1d4 + (attacker's weight/10.) Fort Save DC 15 for half My character is a Warforged Juggernaut with Permanent Enlarge Person. His weight is something like 2400 pounds, so I don't think I can use the weight rule, otherwise I would be doing 1d4 + 240 damage. As much as I would love to do that kinda damage, I think the other players might physically harm me. :eek:
Holy_Beholder 04-28-07, 12:23 PM	Yeah, and if the wall breaks, they go through it. City fights with thin wooden walls would be so entertaining this way.
Steevo 04-29-07, 10:16 AM	What caught my eye was this.... the victim of the bull rush takes bashing damage equal to 1d4 + (attacker's weight/10.) Fort Save DC 15 for half My character is a Warforged Juggernaut with Permanent Enlarge Person. His weight is something like 2400 pounds, so I don't think I can use the weight rule, otherwise I would be doing 1d4 + 240 damage. As much as I would love to do that kinda damage, I think the other players might physically harm me. :eek: Yeah... The idea with the weight thing was that since you're driving your opponent into the wall with your whole body, the weight of your body will affect momentum, which in turn would affect damage, but the rule was really only designed with the core races in mind (our group doesn't use things like warforged very often.) I agree that's more than just a little broken.