Bull Rushing: rules clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rushing: rules clarification [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BigFatTexta
03-21-07, 10:27 PM I never saw the functionality of bull rush before, I always kind of saw it as a way of knocking someone of a cliff or a bridge. But a situation came up in Monday's game and another purpose of bull rushing became clear to me: To move an opponent of its square so you and your allies can use that square for movement.

My question is this: what happens when the target of a bullrush and the bullrusher both have one of their allies behind them in a tight space like a corridor or room entrance?

The DM's adhoc ruling was that each of the allies could add their str mods to the character involved in the bull rush, with a success forcing both of the opponents characters backwards.

I tended to think that the aid another rules would have sufficed with the bullrushed character being forced into an adjacent square because the square behind him was occupied by an ally.

could someone please help me with the finer points of bullrushing. Cheers
daladinn
03-22-07, 07:33 AM there is a feat that can give you an aid another option as an AOO to ad +2 the the victims AC , but thats really the only feat i can think of off hand. as for waht would happen and why a bull rush is nice in this sitch . as soon as the victim is pushed into the square of his ally behind him , he falls prone in the square just in front of his ally. then the attacker is in the square in front of the victim.

if you see yourself in this sitch often , we had a pair of fighters in a game that trained for it , and it worked well. fighter 1 would bull rush then fall prone (prone fighting feat) . fighter 2 would then do a leaping charge over fighter 1 and victim 1 and smash into victim 2. it was kinda funny how well it seemed to work
kjenks
03-22-07, 09:34 AM what happens when the target of a bullrush and the bullrusher both have one of their allies behind them in a tight space like a corridor or room entrance?

Your DM's ruling was okay for an off-the-cuff ruling, but the PH actually does have rules for this.

The bull rush rules don't allow the defender to use any kind of assistance from surrounding characters. (For example, Aid Another doesn't help at all.) Resolving the bull rush is just between the attacker and the defender.

If the defender loses the opposed roll, he's pushed back 5 ft. or more. If the defender ends up in an occupied square or shoved into a wall, you can use this rule:

SRD
===
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
===

If you need to determine the closest legal position, you can use this rule:

SRD
===
Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
===

Remember, by the D&D movement rules, squares that are 5 ft. away diagonally are the same distance as the other adjacent squares, so each square is surrounded by 8 other equally close squares.

With bull rush into a crowded room, these two rules can create surprising results. For example, let's say there's a 25x25 room packed full of kobolds, one per square, with a single standard 5 ft. doorway. The kobold in the doorway is using a tower shield for total cover, while all of the other kobolds are lobbing vials of acid over their buddy in the doorway into the back of your party. (A cruel and sneaky tactic, I know, but just the kind of thing that kobolds would do.)

If you bull rush the kobold in the doorway, what happens? When you shove him 5 ft. back into the room, he's now in an illegal square (because every square in the room contains a kobold). And you're standing in the square he was occupying. So where does he go?

He pops out of the room! He might even go into the square you attacked him from. Or he might go into another equally close square, determined randomly.
Vegepygmy
03-22-07, 12:17 PM If you bull rush the kobold in the doorway, what happens? When you shove him 5 ft. back into the room, he's now in an illegal square (because every square in the room contains a kobold). And you're standing in the square he was occupying. So where does he go?

He pops out of the room!I don't think so. You're not "standing in the square he was occupying" yet (i.e., you don't have some indisputable claim on that square), because your bull rush is still being resolved. The "last legal position" the kobold occupied is the square you tried to bull rush him out of; he returns to that square...which means it is not a legal position for you to occupy, and you also return to the last legal position you occupied.

In other words, nobody goes anywhere. Bull rushing in such cramped quarters is pointless (unless, for some reason, you want to provoke a bunch of attacks of opportunity that have a 25% chance of hitting your bull rush target instead of you).
Merestil Haye
03-22-07, 02:00 PM There is a discussion somewhere about what happens when a creature is forced into another occupied square by some external effect. it may well be around the subject of enlargement.

My general suggestion would be to rule that if a creature is bullrushed into a space he cannot legally occupy, and the creature already in that space cannot be moved into another legal space, then the bullrushed creature falls prone in the square he occupied before the bullrush.

The bullrushing character had better hope the creature he just knocked down s not a rogue with the Low Blow feat is all I can say.
kjenks
03-22-07, 02:30 PM There are a few corner cases, but bull rush almost never knocks anybody prone. I'm not sure where people get that idea.
kjenks
03-22-07, 02:38 PM I don't think so. You're not "standing in the square he was occupying" yet (i.e., you don't have some indisputable claim on that square), because your bull rush is still being resolved. The "last legal position" the kobold occupied is the square you tried to bull rush him out of; he returns to that square...which means it is not a legal position for you to occupy, and you also return to the last legal position you occupied.

In other words, nobody goes anywhere. Bull rushing in such cramped quarters is pointless (unless, for some reason, you want to provoke a bunch of attacks of opportunity that have a 25% chance of hitting your bull rush target instead of you).

SRD
===
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space.
===

In our room-full-of-kobolds example, this means you enter the room, and you are indeed standing in the square occupied by the kobold.

When you shove him out of that square, if he can't move to any other legal position, he's the one who is "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" so he has to follow those rules and get bumped out. Once forced out, he can't bump back into your square; it's occupied.

There are no AoOs in my example because the kobold acting as the cork in the doorway is using a tower shield and the rest of them are armed only with flasks of oil, so they threaten no squares and can't take AoOs.
Vegepygmy
03-22-07, 02:54 PM In our room-full-of-kobolds example, this means you enter the room, and you are indeed standing in the square occupied by the kobold.

When you shove him out of that square, if he can't move to any other legal position, he's the one who is "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" so he has to follow those rules and get bumped out. Once forced out, he can't bump back into your square; it's occupied.I understand your chain of logic; I just don't agree with it.

The problem is with the term "occupied square," which is not a defined game term. You seem to interpret it as meaning simply any square someone is in, no matter how briefly, while I interpret it as meaning one who is in and holding a certain position. As I see it, until your bull rush is resolved and you have actually ended your turn in a particular square, you aren't "occupying" it--at least, not any more than the kobold who is simultaneously being forced back into that same square.

I don't think either one of us can prove ourselves to be right or the other wrong, but I'll point out that your interpretation can lead to absurd results (like a kobold being shunted 30 or 40 feet, through half a dozen or more enemy-occupied squares, in the opposite direction he was pushed).
Merestil Haye
03-22-07, 03:43 PM There are a few corner cases, but bull rush almost never knocks anybody prone. I'm not sure where people get that idea.my suggestion was not based on the Bullrush rules, because Bullrush says exactly nothing about this sort of question. I was looking at another area in which creatures are sometimes forced to occupy a space another creature already occupies by an outside force (ie not as a result of either creature moving into the other's space).

Rather than the creature disappearing (which, to be quite frank, is ludicrous beyond belief) you need to find some other mechanism to resolve the question of where the creature goes.

My suggestion was based of a discussion I remembered reading about the results of size-changing magic. it turns out that it was in an old Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050510a) article. The specific paragraph says :In cases where a change of form results in two creatures sharing the same space on the battlefield when they otherwise could not, it's usually best to have the smaller creature move to a space that can safely hold it and that is adjacent to the larger creature. If no space adjacent to the larger creature is available to hold the smaller creature, it winds up prone in the larger creature's space instead.Hence my suggestion that the creature wind up prone in the space it already occupied if it cannot be placed in a legal space adjacent to the one it would be moved into.

My suggested procedure would be. Move the bullrushing creature into the space the target creature occupies.
Go to move the target creature back into the space it would normally be Bullrushed into.
If the target creature cannot legally occupy the square it should move into because it is occupied, but that creature could legally occupy a square adjacent to the one it would be moved into, it is moved into that second square.
If there are no squares it can legally occupy, it remains in its original square and becomes prone.The rules don't say anything about Bullrushed creatures becoming prone - this is a suggested procedure to deal with those occasions when a Bullrushed creature cannot legally go anywhere.

ETA : This represents a slight change on my earlier suggestion, in that one creature is moving two squares. I think this works better in explaining why it stops after two squares.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BigFatTexta 03-21-07, 10:27 PM	I never saw the functionality of bull rush before, I always kind of saw it as a way of knocking someone of a cliff or a bridge. But a situation came up in Monday's game and another purpose of bull rushing became clear to me: To move an opponent of its square so you and your allies can use that square for movement. My question is this: what happens when the target of a bullrush and the bullrusher both have one of their allies behind them in a tight space like a corridor or room entrance? The DM's adhoc ruling was that each of the allies could add their str mods to the character involved in the bull rush, with a success forcing both of the opponents characters backwards. I tended to think that the aid another rules would have sufficed with the bullrushed character being forced into an adjacent square because the square behind him was occupied by an ally. could someone please help me with the finer points of bullrushing. Cheers
daladinn 03-22-07, 07:33 AM	there is a feat that can give you an aid another option as an AOO to ad +2 the the victims AC , but thats really the only feat i can think of off hand. as for waht would happen and why a bull rush is nice in this sitch . as soon as the victim is pushed into the square of his ally behind him , he falls prone in the square just in front of his ally. then the attacker is in the square in front of the victim. if you see yourself in this sitch often , we had a pair of fighters in a game that trained for it , and it worked well. fighter 1 would bull rush then fall prone (prone fighting feat) . fighter 2 would then do a leaping charge over fighter 1 and victim 1 and smash into victim 2. it was kinda funny how well it seemed to work
kjenks 03-22-07, 09:34 AM	what happens when the target of a bullrush and the bullrusher both have one of their allies behind them in a tight space like a corridor or room entrance? Your DM's ruling was okay for an off-the-cuff ruling, but the PH actually does have rules for this. The bull rush rules don't allow the defender to use any kind of assistance from surrounding characters. (For example, Aid Another doesn't help at all.) Resolving the bull rush is just between the attacker and the defender. If the defender loses the opposed roll, he's pushed back 5 ft. or more. If the defender ends up in an occupied square or shoved into a wall, you can use this rule: SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === If you need to determine the closest legal position, you can use this rule: SRD === Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die. === Remember, by the D&D movement rules, squares that are 5 ft. away diagonally are the same distance as the other adjacent squares, so each square is surrounded by 8 other equally close squares. With bull rush into a crowded room, these two rules can create surprising results. For example, let's say there's a 25x25 room packed full of kobolds, one per square, with a single standard 5 ft. doorway. The kobold in the doorway is using a tower shield for total cover, while all of the other kobolds are lobbing vials of acid over their buddy in the doorway into the back of your party. (A cruel and sneaky tactic, I know, but just the kind of thing that kobolds would do.) If you bull rush the kobold in the doorway, what happens? When you shove him 5 ft. back into the room, he's now in an illegal square (because every square in the room contains a kobold). And you're standing in the square he was occupying. So where does he go? He pops out of the room! He might even go into the square you attacked him from. Or he might go into another equally close square, determined randomly.
Vegepygmy 03-22-07, 12:17 PM	If you bull rush the kobold in the doorway, what happens? When you shove him 5 ft. back into the room, he's now in an illegal square (because every square in the room contains a kobold). And you're standing in the square he was occupying. So where does he go? He pops out of the room!I don't think so. You're not "standing in the square he was occupying" yet (i.e., you don't have some indisputable claim on that square), because your bull rush is still being resolved. The "last legal position" the kobold occupied is the square you tried to bull rush him out of; he returns to that square...which means it is not a legal position for you to occupy, and you also return to the last legal position you occupied. In other words, nobody goes anywhere. Bull rushing in such cramped quarters is pointless (unless, for some reason, you want to provoke a bunch of attacks of opportunity that have a 25% chance of hitting your bull rush target instead of you).
Merestil Haye 03-22-07, 02:00 PM	There is a discussion somewhere about what happens when a creature is forced into another occupied square by some external effect. it may well be around the subject of enlargement. My general suggestion would be to rule that if a creature is bullrushed into a space he cannot legally occupy, and the creature already in that space cannot be moved into another legal space, then the bullrushed creature falls prone in the square he occupied before the bullrush. The bullrushing character had better hope the creature he just knocked down s not a rogue with the Low Blow feat is all I can say.
kjenks 03-22-07, 02:30 PM	There are a few corner cases, but bull rush almost never knocks anybody prone. I'm not sure where people get that idea.
kjenks 03-22-07, 02:38 PM	I don't think so. You're not "standing in the square he was occupying" yet (i.e., you don't have some indisputable claim on that square), because your bull rush is still being resolved. The "last legal position" the kobold occupied is the square you tried to bull rush him out of; he returns to that square...which means it is not a legal position for you to occupy, and you also return to the last legal position you occupied. In other words, nobody goes anywhere. Bull rushing in such cramped quarters is pointless (unless, for some reason, you want to provoke a bunch of attacks of opportunity that have a 25% chance of hitting your bull rush target instead of you). SRD === Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. === In our room-full-of-kobolds example, this means you enter the room, and you are indeed standing in the square occupied by the kobold. When you shove him out of that square, if he can't move to any other legal position, he's the one who is "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" so he has to follow those rules and get bumped out. Once forced out, he can't bump back into your square; it's occupied. There are no AoOs in my example because the kobold acting as the cork in the doorway is using a tower shield and the rest of them are armed only with flasks of oil, so they threaten no squares and can't take AoOs.
Vegepygmy 03-22-07, 02:54 PM	In our room-full-of-kobolds example, this means you enter the room, and you are indeed standing in the square occupied by the kobold. When you shove him out of that square, if he can't move to any other legal position, he's the one who is "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" so he has to follow those rules and get bumped out. Once forced out, he can't bump back into your square; it's occupied.I understand your chain of logic; I just don't agree with it. The problem is with the term "occupied square," which is not a defined game term. You seem to interpret it as meaning simply any square someone is in, no matter how briefly, while I interpret it as meaning one who is in and holding a certain position. As I see it, until your bull rush is resolved and you have actually ended your turn in a particular square, you aren't "occupying" it--at least, not any more than the kobold who is simultaneously being forced back into that same square. I don't think either one of us can prove ourselves to be right or the other wrong, but I'll point out that your interpretation can lead to absurd results (like a kobold being shunted 30 or 40 feet, through half a dozen or more enemy-occupied squares, in the opposite direction he was pushed).
Merestil Haye 03-22-07, 03:43 PM	There are a few corner cases, but bull rush almost never knocks anybody prone. I'm not sure where people get that idea.my suggestion was not based on the Bullrush rules, because Bullrush says exactly nothing about this sort of question. I was looking at another area in which creatures are sometimes forced to occupy a space another creature already occupies by an outside force (ie not as a result of either creature moving into the other's space). Rather than the creature disappearing (which, to be quite frank, is ludicrous beyond belief) you need to find some other mechanism to resolve the question of where the creature goes. My suggestion was based of a discussion I remembered reading about the results of size-changing magic. it turns out that it was in an old Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050510a) article. The specific paragraph says :In cases where a change of form results in two creatures sharing the same space on the battlefield when they otherwise could not, it's usually best to have the smaller creature move to a space that can safely hold it and that is adjacent to the larger creature. If no space adjacent to the larger creature is available to hold the smaller creature, it winds up prone in the larger creature's space instead.Hence my suggestion that the creature wind up prone in the space it already occupied if it cannot be placed in a legal space adjacent to the one it would be moved into. My suggested procedure would be. Move the bullrushing creature into the space the target creature occupies. Go to move the target creature back into the space it would normally be Bullrushed into. If the target creature cannot legally occupy the square it should move into because it is occupied, but that creature could legally occupy a square adjacent to the one it would be moved into, it is moved into that second square. If there are no squares it can legally occupy, it remains in its original square and becomes prone.The rules don't say anything about Bullrushed creatures becoming prone - this is a suggested procedure to deal with those occasions when a Bullrushed creature cannot legally go anywhere. ETA : This represents a slight change on my earlier suggestion, in that one creature is moving two squares. I think this works better in explaining why it stops after two squares.