Bull Rushing: Standard action or Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bull Rushing: Standard action or Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gylthinel
10-27-05, 07:15 PM In the first paragraph of the bull rush description, it says - "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack)..." Now, I was under the impression that doing a bull-rush was a standard action. But, under other special attacks that require a standard action, such as overrun or turn undead, it makes no mention of the ambiguous "an attack" phrase. On the inverse side, attacks such as sunders/trips/disarms, the text seems very clear that the action is an attack, not a standard action.

I would dismiss this tiny bit of phrasology outright, except I beleive that in the SWRPG, bull rushing can be done as an attack, not a standard action. Is that the case in DnD? That might make Bull-Rushing not suck.
cwslyclgh
10-27-05, 08:06 PM an attack is a type of standard action.
sandskimmer
10-27-05, 10:08 PM So to clarify, it is an attack that takes a standard action.
Gylthinel
10-27-05, 10:31 PM Clarify???

So, you're saying that, to do a bull rush, you have to use a standard action?

I'd say an Overrun is more of an attack than a bull rush, yet they don't call it an attack. That's part of where my confusion is comming from.

Thanks for the help! Keep in mind that I am a dullard, and I really need the answer spelled out for me. If I have a level 6 barbarian, can he do a bull rush with his first attack and a sword-hacky with his second? Or would he have to waste his entire action just to push his enemy (who would then promptly jack him)?
Colmarr
10-27-05, 11:37 PM Bull rush is a standard action.

If it were not (ie. if it were able to be substituted for an attack in a full-attack action), a high level barbarian (and most of the larger monsters in the MM) would be able to move at double speed each round simply by taking full attack actions, pushing their opponents back, and following them with the free movement allowed to the winner of a Bull Rush.
Nom
10-30-05, 07:13 AM What it means is that a bull rush can be performed as a standard action attack or as part of a charge. In contrast, turning undead is not an attack, while overun is an unusual standard action embedded into a move action.
DarknessEternal
10-30-05, 01:58 PM If it were not (ie. if it were able to be substituted for an attack in a full-attack action), a high level barbarian (and most of the larger monsters in the MM) would be able to move at double speed each round simply by taking full attack actions, pushing their opponents back, and following them with the free movement allowed to the winner of a Bull Rush.

You're logic does not work. You may only make a 5' step during a full attack. Nothing about Bull Rush says you may exceed your normal movement restrictions. It also does not compel you to move at all.
Colmarr
10-30-05, 10:07 PM You're logic does not work.

My logic works fine.

Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

So, a 20th level barbarian troll declares a full attack action against Merlin the 1st level wizard. It uses its first attack to Bull rush and wins by 20. Merlin is pushed back 25ft and the troll can follow up by the same amount.

With its second attack, the troll does the same thing with the same result. Merlin goes back another 25ft and the troll follows up.

Step 3 same as above. Step 4 same again.

End result. Merlin and the troll move 100ft in one round.

You will probably say that the bolded text above refers to per round. I say that it doesn't include that text and therefore refers to per bull rush. In the event, I have already stated that bull rush is a standard action and therefore an average character* can only make one per round, so it's a bit of a moot point.

*Damn chokers.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-30-05, 10:42 PM There is no such thing in D&D as an "attack action." The only times that phrase appears in the rules, it is immediately preceded by "full". Things like disarm and grapple are essentially just melee attacks that do things other than damage.

Don't believe me? Open up the Combat section of the SRD and search for "attack action."
Colmarr
10-30-05, 11:29 PM There is no such thing in D&D as an "attack action."

It's a somewhat moot point given previous posts, but I disagree with that. There is definitely an attack action.

It is in fact the first action on the table of standard actions.
Grandor
10-31-05, 10:18 AM Nothing about Bull Rush says you may exceed your normal movement restrictions. It also does not compel you to move at all.

Indeed, quite the contrary:
If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit.

The (attack) bit does seem confusing. Personally I think that if a Bull Rush is a complete Standard Action (i.e. not one of the character's 'attacks') then it's quite useless. However, it is a cool (and IMO not unbalancing) effect if you can push an opponent back 5' (by stepping into its square - using up all your allowed movement if you do a full attack), and then proceed to maul it with your remaining attacks.
Effectively you 'trade' one of your attacks for a 5' terrain gain, but you can do this only once per round (due to the 5' step limit). If you want to move with your component, you'll have to do the Bull-rush as a standard action (and the move as a move action).

But, the latter is my opinion - I think that the RAW say that a Bull-Rush is a standard action I'm afraid.
Plothos
10-31-05, 01:45 PM It's pretty clear that bull rush is a standard action, and that this means, by the RAW, that you can't get any additional attacks in that round with the bull-rushing character, since getting any added attacks requires a full round action (to get iterative attacks or even to use TWF). The bull rush is not meant to be a major battle tactic, where you run in and whack the guy. That'd be charge or overrun. Rather, it's meant to be an option in some special situations that don't come up too often but can be crucial when they do. Say a huge high-AC fighter is about to clobber your sorc, but he's standing on the edge of a cliff. Or, say there's a bunch of archers up on a ledge while your party is pinned down below getting peppered, and the only way up is a flight of stairs, where a big ol' dwarf is using a tower shield to get full cover and bar your path. It has a very well-defined place in D&D battle tactics. You're trying to make it something it's not.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-31-05, 03:18 PM It's a somewhat moot point given previous posts, but I disagree with that. There is definitely an attack action.

It is in fact the first action on the table of standard actions.

I'm saying "attack action" isn't an action type like standard, move, full, like many people seem to believe.

A single attack is a standard action.
DarknessEternal
10-31-05, 03:24 PM Indeed, quite the contrary:

Uh, beg pardon? The part you quoted said you have a choice of moving or not, and also you cannot exceed your move limitations. That's exactly what I said, yet you quoted the SRD saying that I was wrong.
Colmarr
10-31-05, 07:08 PM I'm saying "attack action" isn't an action type like standard, move, full, like many people seem to believe.

A single attack is a standard action.

I thought you might be :)
Ravag3r
10-31-05, 09:39 PM Bull rush is a standard action.

If it were not (ie. if it were able to be substituted for an attack in a full-attack action), a high level barbarian (and most of the larger monsters in the MM) would be able to move at double speed each round simply by taking full attack actions, pushing their opponents back, and following them with the free movement allowed to the winner of a Bull Rush.
No, because using the bull rush doesn't grant you extra movement speed in a round - you'd still be limited by your maximum move.
Hairfoot
10-31-05, 10:14 PM No, because using the bull rush doesn't grant you extra movement speed in a round - you'd still be limited by your maximum move.
Bingo. The barbarian could bullrush an opponent 20' backward with attack no.1, then another 20' with attack no.2, but no further because that's his movement used up.

If he's got more attacks he can still trip, disarm, or just strike.
Phantom Lord
10-31-05, 10:56 PM Here's the problem - When the Barbarian pushes that Halfling Wizard back 40' in one round, what happens to the poor Halfling? He has already moved twice as far as he can normally move himself; does that mean the barbarian picked him up and moved him? Must be, because I doubt he could backpedal that quickly.

But, just to point out my 'official' position:
Per the RAW, you can't get any attacks in the same round you bull-rush. Per the logic set forth in this thread, bull-rushing as an 'attack action' makes my list of house-rules; it makes sense that you could, whilst engaged in a heated melee, push your opponent backward by sacrificing one of your attacks (only a maximum of 5' per round) yet still be pressing the attack at all times.
Colmarr
10-31-05, 11:17 PM No, because using the bull rush doesn't grant you extra movement speed in a round - you'd still be limited by your maximum move.

I've already addressed that argument. See the last paragraph of my second post (#8).
Hairfoot
11-01-05, 07:58 PM Here's the problem - When the Barbarian pushes that Halfling Wizard back 40' in one round, what happens to the poor Halfling?
Well, that's the point at which a sensible DM declares the bullrush an overrun to stop things getting ridiculous. Same with the movement per bullrush/per round business.

Keep in mind that a bullrush isn't a one-size-fits-all attack. A bullrush against a halfling wizard might mean a one-handed shove, while the same manoeuvre against an ogre may require a full-strength shoulder barge.
Grandor
11-02-05, 03:38 AM Uh, beg pardon? The part you quoted said you have a choice of moving or not, and also you cannot exceed your move limitations. That's exactly what I said, yet you quoted the SRD saying that I was wrong.

Err... Ok, here's the confusing part: the 'Indeed' meant that I agreed with you and the quote was intended to back up your point :)

So yes, I completely agreed with your statement.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gylthinel 10-27-05, 07:15 PM	In the first paragraph of the bull rush description, it says - "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack)..." Now, I was under the impression that doing a bull-rush was a standard action. But, under other special attacks that require a standard action, such as overrun or turn undead, it makes no mention of the ambiguous "an attack" phrase. On the inverse side, attacks such as sunders/trips/disarms, the text seems very clear that the action is an attack, not a standard action. I would dismiss this tiny bit of phrasology outright, except I beleive that in the SWRPG, bull rushing can be done as an attack, not a standard action. Is that the case in DnD? That might make Bull-Rushing not suck.
cwslyclgh 10-27-05, 08:06 PM	an attack is a type of standard action.
sandskimmer 10-27-05, 10:08 PM	So to clarify, it is an attack that takes a standard action.
Gylthinel 10-27-05, 10:31 PM	Clarify??? So, you're saying that, to do a bull rush, you have to use a standard action? I'd say an Overrun is more of an attack than a bull rush, yet they don't call it an attack. That's part of where my confusion is comming from. Thanks for the help! Keep in mind that I am a dullard, and I really need the answer spelled out for me. If I have a level 6 barbarian, can he do a bull rush with his first attack and a sword-hacky with his second? Or would he have to waste his entire action just to push his enemy (who would then promptly jack him)?
Colmarr 10-27-05, 11:37 PM	Bull rush is a standard action. If it were not (ie. if it were able to be substituted for an attack in a full-attack action), a high level barbarian (and most of the larger monsters in the MM) would be able to move at double speed each round simply by taking full attack actions, pushing their opponents back, and following them with the free movement allowed to the winner of a Bull Rush.
Nom 10-30-05, 07:13 AM	What it means is that a bull rush can be performed as a standard action attack or as part of a charge. In contrast, turning undead is not an attack, while overun is an unusual standard action embedded into a move action.
DarknessEternal 10-30-05, 01:58 PM	If it were not (ie. if it were able to be substituted for an attack in a full-attack action), a high level barbarian (and most of the larger monsters in the MM) would be able to move at double speed each round simply by taking full attack actions, pushing their opponents back, and following them with the free movement allowed to the winner of a Bull Rush. You're logic does not work. You may only make a 5' step during a full attack. Nothing about Bull Rush says you may exceed your normal movement restrictions. It also does not compel you to move at all.
Colmarr 10-30-05, 10:07 PM	You're logic does not work. My logic works fine. Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) So, a 20th level barbarian troll declares a full attack action against Merlin the 1st level wizard. It uses its first attack to Bull rush and wins by 20. Merlin is pushed back 25ft and the troll can follow up by the same amount. With its second attack, the troll does the same thing with the same result. Merlin goes back another 25ft and the troll follows up. Step 3 same as above. Step 4 same again. End result. Merlin and the troll move 100ft in one round. You will probably say that the bolded text above refers to per round. I say that it doesn't include that text and therefore refers to per bull rush. In the event, I have already stated that bull rush is a standard action and therefore an average character* can only make one per round, so it's a bit of a moot point. *Damn chokers.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-30-05, 10:42 PM	There is no such thing in D&D as an "attack action." The only times that phrase appears in the rules, it is immediately preceded by "full". Things like disarm and grapple are essentially just melee attacks that do things other than damage. Don't believe me? Open up the Combat section of the SRD and search for "attack action."
Colmarr 10-30-05, 11:29 PM	There is no such thing in D&D as an "attack action." It's a somewhat moot point given previous posts, but I disagree with that. There is definitely an attack action. It is in fact the first action on the table of standard actions.
Grandor 10-31-05, 10:18 AM	Nothing about Bull Rush says you may exceed your normal movement restrictions. It also does not compel you to move at all. Indeed, quite the contrary: If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. The (attack) bit does seem confusing. Personally I think that if a Bull Rush is a complete Standard Action (i.e. not one of the character's 'attacks') then it's quite useless. However, it is a cool (and IMO not unbalancing) effect if you can push an opponent back 5' (by stepping into its square - using up all your allowed movement if you do a full attack), and then proceed to maul it with your remaining attacks. Effectively you 'trade' one of your attacks for a 5' terrain gain, but you can do this only once per round (due to the 5' step limit). If you want to move with your component, you'll have to do the Bull-rush as a standard action (and the move as a move action). But, the latter is my opinion - I think that the RAW say that a Bull-Rush is a standard action I'm afraid.
Plothos 10-31-05, 01:45 PM	It's pretty clear that bull rush is a standard action, and that this means, by the RAW, that you can't get any additional attacks in that round with the bull-rushing character, since getting any added attacks requires a full round action (to get iterative attacks or even to use TWF). The bull rush is not meant to be a major battle tactic, where you run in and whack the guy. That'd be charge or overrun. Rather, it's meant to be an option in some special situations that don't come up too often but can be crucial when they do. Say a huge high-AC fighter is about to clobber your sorc, but he's standing on the edge of a cliff. Or, say there's a bunch of archers up on a ledge while your party is pinned down below getting peppered, and the only way up is a flight of stairs, where a big ol' dwarf is using a tower shield to get full cover and bar your path. It has a very well-defined place in D&D battle tactics. You're trying to make it something it's not.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-31-05, 03:18 PM	It's a somewhat moot point given previous posts, but I disagree with that. There is definitely an attack action. It is in fact the first action on the table of standard actions. I'm saying "attack action" isn't an action type like standard, move, full, like many people seem to believe. A single attack is a standard action.
DarknessEternal 10-31-05, 03:24 PM	Indeed, quite the contrary: Uh, beg pardon? The part you quoted said you have a choice of moving or not, and also you cannot exceed your move limitations. That's exactly what I said, yet you quoted the SRD saying that I was wrong.
Colmarr 10-31-05, 07:08 PM	I'm saying "attack action" isn't an action type like standard, move, full, like many people seem to believe. A single attack is a standard action. I thought you might be :)
Ravag3r 10-31-05, 09:39 PM	Bull rush is a standard action. If it were not (ie. if it were able to be substituted for an attack in a full-attack action), a high level barbarian (and most of the larger monsters in the MM) would be able to move at double speed each round simply by taking full attack actions, pushing their opponents back, and following them with the free movement allowed to the winner of a Bull Rush. No, because using the bull rush doesn't grant you extra movement speed in a round - you'd still be limited by your maximum move.
Hairfoot 10-31-05, 10:14 PM	No, because using the bull rush doesn't grant you extra movement speed in a round - you'd still be limited by your maximum move. Bingo. The barbarian could bullrush an opponent 20' backward with attack no.1, then another 20' with attack no.2, but no further because that's his movement used up. If he's got more attacks he can still trip, disarm, or just strike.
Phantom Lord 10-31-05, 10:56 PM	Here's the problem - When the Barbarian pushes that Halfling Wizard back 40' in one round, what happens to the poor Halfling? He has already moved twice as far as he can normally move himself; does that mean the barbarian picked him up and moved him? Must be, because I doubt he could backpedal that quickly. But, just to point out my 'official' position: Per the RAW, you can't get any attacks in the same round you bull-rush. Per the logic set forth in this thread, bull-rushing as an 'attack action' makes my list of house-rules; it makes sense that you could, whilst engaged in a heated melee, push your opponent backward by sacrificing one of your attacks (only a maximum of 5' per round) yet still be pressing the attack at all times.
Colmarr 10-31-05, 11:17 PM	No, because using the bull rush doesn't grant you extra movement speed in a round - you'd still be limited by your maximum move. I've already addressed that argument. See the last paragraph of my second post (#8).
Hairfoot 11-01-05, 07:58 PM	Here's the problem - When the Barbarian pushes that Halfling Wizard back 40' in one round, what happens to the poor Halfling? Well, that's the point at which a sensible DM declares the bullrush an overrun to stop things getting ridiculous. Same with the movement per bullrush/per round business. Keep in mind that a bullrush isn't a one-size-fits-all attack. A bullrush against a halfling wizard might mean a one-handed shove, while the same manoeuvre against an ogre may require a full-strength shoulder barge.
Grandor 11-02-05, 03:38 AM	Uh, beg pardon? The part you quoted said you have a choice of moving or not, and also you cannot exceed your move limitations. That's exactly what I said, yet you quoted the SRD saying that I was wrong. Err... Ok, here's the confusing part: the 'Indeed' meant that I agreed with you and the quote was intended to back up your point :) So yes, I completely agreed with your statement.