Bullrush and Powerful Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bullrush and Powerful Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
primemover003
06-25-07, 08:56 AM Can a creature with powerful build bullrush a Huge creature?

Bullrush says you can only attempt it on a creature up to one size larger.

Powerful Build says that you are treated as size large for size mods or special size mods to opposed checks (if that's advantageous to you). Now I read that last clause as meaning you get the +4 to the roll, but you're still only a medium creature. Is that right?
jaelis
06-25-07, 10:04 AM I agree, you're still treated as your real size for the purpose of determining whether you can bull rush. But note that you get to be treated as a size larger when deciding if someone can bull rush you.
risner
06-25-07, 11:08 AM I read that last clause as meaning you get the +4 to the roll, but you're still only a medium creature. Is that right?

/Agree

You are treated as Medium.
tarkin
06-25-07, 11:54 AM It might be Jotunbrand, but one of the "I am larger than normal" racial things specifically states you are counted as one size larger with regards to qualifing for special abilities like Swallow Whole or Bull Rush.

If Powerfull Build did not say that, then it should not be allowed. But it does (see Mvincent's quote below), so I think it should be legal.
mvincent
06-25-07, 05:20 PM Powerful Build says that you are treated as size large for size mods or special size mods to opposed checks (if that's advantageous to you). Now I read that last clause as meaning you get the +4 to the roll, but you're still only a medium creature. Is that right?Powerful build (as listed under half-giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants))* says:
"Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. ."

* This should be the same for all powerful build descriptions.

As I read that, someone with powerful build could bullrush a huge opponent.
tarkin
06-25-07, 05:37 PM I agree, but not from the words you underlined.

The part I think makes it legal is the part that says:

"A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him".

That seems to be exactly the question asked - Does Powerfull build count for figuring out if you can do the special attack, which I would consider Bull Rush to be.
ShinAkuma2
06-25-07, 06:13 PM It counts for someone's special attack against you, but it doesn't say it works the other way around.
mvincent
06-25-07, 06:24 PM It counts for someone's special attack against you, but it doesn't say it works the other way around.My underlined section appears to say that.
jaelis
06-25-07, 11:50 PM Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

As I read that, someone with powerful build could bullrush a huge opponent.

Being able to initiate a bull rush is not itself an opposed check, so the sentence above would not seem to apply. Certainly if the half-giant does get involved in a bull rush, he would be treated as large on the opposed check.
mvincent
06-26-07, 01:06 AM Being able to initiate a bull rush is not itself an opposed checkThis seems more a semantic argument (since I think we can agree on the writer's intent here), so if we going all semantic:
Technically an opposed check is made during the bull rush, so (strictly by the wording) the half-giant would be considered large sized during said bull rush.

i.e. "Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him."
can be parsed as:
"the half-giant is treated as one size larger during bull rush attempts"
jaelis
06-26-07, 01:15 AM Guess I just don't read it that way, not that it's a big deal. I read it as you are treated as one size larger for opposed checks during a bull rush, but not for everything to do with a bull rush.

Then the second part says that you are treated as larger when deciding if a creature can affect you, but not whether you can affect a creature. This seems pretty specific and clear, and I take that as a more direct statement of the designers' intent than the first part, in this case. You couldn't swallow whole a bigger creature than normal, use improved grab on a bigger creature than normal or (as I see it) bull rush a creature bigger than normal.

I guess it's because I'm interpreting a bull rush as a special attack, in the sense of a special thing you can do as an attack. If the designers meant the more technical sense of an ability listed in the creature entry, then your interpretation has more support. They certainly could have meant it that way.
primemover003
06-26-07, 10:29 AM I was also thinking that even though you get the benefit of being large during the bullrush you're still a medium creature. It's kinda like not being able to qualify for feats that require large size.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
primemover003 06-25-07, 08:56 AM	Can a creature with powerful build bullrush a Huge creature? Bullrush says you can only attempt it on a creature up to one size larger. Powerful Build says that you are treated as size large for size mods or special size mods to opposed checks (if that's advantageous to you). Now I read that last clause as meaning you get the +4 to the roll, but you're still only a medium creature. Is that right?
jaelis 06-25-07, 10:04 AM	I agree, you're still treated as your real size for the purpose of determining whether you can bull rush. But note that you get to be treated as a size larger when deciding if someone can bull rush you.
risner 06-25-07, 11:08 AM	I read that last clause as meaning you get the +4 to the roll, but you're still only a medium creature. Is that right? /Agree You are treated as Medium.
tarkin 06-25-07, 11:54 AM	It might be Jotunbrand, but one of the "I am larger than normal" racial things specifically states you are counted as one size larger with regards to qualifing for special abilities like Swallow Whole or Bull Rush. If Powerfull Build did not say that, then it should not be allowed. But it does (see Mvincent's quote below), so I think it should be legal.
mvincent 06-25-07, 05:20 PM	Powerful Build says that you are treated as size large for size mods or special size mods to opposed checks (if that's advantageous to you). Now I read that last clause as meaning you get the +4 to the roll, but you're still only a medium creature. Is that right?Powerful build (as listed under half-giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants))* says: "Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. ." * This should be the same for all powerful build descriptions. As I read that, someone with powerful build could bullrush a huge opponent.
tarkin 06-25-07, 05:37 PM	I agree, but not from the words you underlined. The part I think makes it legal is the part that says: "A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him". That seems to be exactly the question asked - Does Powerfull build count for figuring out if you can do the special attack, which I would consider Bull Rush to be.
ShinAkuma2 06-25-07, 06:13 PM	It counts for someone's special attack against you, but it doesn't say it works the other way around.
mvincent 06-25-07, 06:24 PM	It counts for someone's special attack against you, but it doesn't say it works the other way around.My underlined section appears to say that.
jaelis 06-25-07, 11:50 PM	Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. As I read that, someone with powerful build could bullrush a huge opponent. Being able to initiate a bull rush is not itself an opposed check, so the sentence above would not seem to apply. Certainly if the half-giant does get involved in a bull rush, he would be treated as large on the opposed check.
mvincent 06-26-07, 01:06 AM	Being able to initiate a bull rush is not itself an opposed checkThis seems more a semantic argument (since I think we can agree on the writer's intent here), so if we going all semantic: Technically an opposed check is made during the bull rush, so (strictly by the wording) the half-giant would be considered large sized during said bull rush. i.e. "Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him." can be parsed as: "the half-giant is treated as one size larger during bull rush attempts"
jaelis 06-26-07, 01:15 AM	Guess I just don't read it that way, not that it's a big deal. I read it as you are treated as one size larger for opposed checks during a bull rush, but not for everything to do with a bull rush. Then the second part says that you are treated as larger when deciding if a creature can affect you, but not whether you can affect a creature. This seems pretty specific and clear, and I take that as a more direct statement of the designers' intent than the first part, in this case. You couldn't swallow whole a bigger creature than normal, use improved grab on a bigger creature than normal or (as I see it) bull rush a creature bigger than normal. I guess it's because I'm interpreting a bull rush as a special attack, in the sense of a special thing you can do as an attack. If the designers meant the more technical sense of an ability listed in the creature entry, then your interpretation has more support. They certainly could have meant it that way.
primemover003 06-26-07, 10:29 AM	I was also thinking that even though you get the benefit of being large during the bullrush you're still a medium creature. It's kinda like not being able to qualify for feats that require large size.