Bullrushing Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bullrushing Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nate Jones
09-21-06, 11:13 PM I have two questions on bullrushing. Both arose last game session as one of my player's characters starting experimenting around with game mechanics. First, what happens when you bull-rush an opponent into a solid object? My player argued that the enemy is dealt 1d6 damage per 5 feet he should have gone, and I vaguely remember something to this effect, but I can find no mention of it in the rules. On a somewhat related note, how do you resolve bullrushing an opponent into another person?

Last game, the favored soul attempted to bull-rush his opponent off the edge of a 100 foot high bridge. The bridge, however, had a 3-foot high railing spanning its length. How would you resolve this? Assuming the attempt was successful enough to push the opponent back at least 5 feet, would he just topple over the edge (With a save?), or would he just stop where at the edge? For the sake of keeping the game moving, I ruled that he would plumet over the edge, but was allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to grab on to the lower lip as he well. However, both the player and I would like a more definite ruling on the matter. Has anyone had a similar occurrence come up during play?
__DnD4Life__
09-21-06, 11:32 PM look at telekinetic thrust in the XPH. It has rules for creatures geting thrown against solid objects. It is a little different though. As for bullrushing into another person's space, that provokes an AoO for entering a creature's square. Im not to sure about the rest though.
kjenks
09-22-06, 11:33 AM I have two questions on bullrushing. Both arose last game session as one of my player's characters starting experimenting around with game mechanics. First, what happens when you bull-rush an opponent into a solid object? My player argued that the enemy is dealt 1d6 damage per 5 feet he should have gone, and I vaguely remember something to this effect, but I can find no mention of it in the rules.

There is nothing like that in the rules. (Well, the Explosive Spell metamagic feat in Complete Arcane is a little like that, but nothing in the bull rush rules.)

When an attacker uses bull rush to push a defender into a solid object or other illegal square, use this rule:

SRD
===
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.
===

There are eight squares that are an equal distance from any given square (because the first diagonal is 5 ft. away). To determine the closest legal position:

SRD
===
Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
===

On a somewhat related note, how do you resolve bullrushing an opponent into another person?

Same way.

However, if the attacker has the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior), he can use the Domino Rush tactic to get a free trip attack on both defenders.

Last game, the favored soul attempted to bull-rush his opponent off the edge of a 100 foot high bridge. The bridge, however, had a 3-foot high railing spanning its length. How would you resolve this? Assuming the attempt was successful enough to push the opponent back at least 5 feet, would he just topple over the edge (With a save?), or would he just stop where at the edge? For the sake of keeping the game moving, I ruled that he would plumet over the edge, but was allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to grab on to the lower lip as he well. However, both the player and I would like a more definite ruling on the matter. Has anyone had a similar occurrence come up during play?

There are no rules explicitly for that. I'd say pushing someone over a 3-ft. high railing was attempting to push the defender into an illegal square, so nobody falls over the edge. But your solution was more dramatic.
deanruel
09-22-06, 01:05 PM There are no official rulings on either bullrushing into a wall or being pushed off of bridges (though there will inevitably be, one day). However I in my games would have used the exact same rules you have. I like the idea of a "crushing Bullrush" almost as much as I like the idea of someone getting tossed over a ledge. Both much more fun then simply putting up SRD restrictions and saying "no no". As a matter of interest in fact you will find that both of those rules (the bullrush and the rope-off) are covered explicitly by one rule in the D&D handbooks, a rule which in fact should be used more often than it is. Rule 0 is that you are the DM and what you think is fun and cool goes under the official ruling of "fun and cool" and has the full and total support of the entire Wizards Of The Coast company and it's affiliates.

It's fun to be right isn't it. Keep on bullrushin homie.
fatal error
09-22-06, 02:43 PM No official damages listed for bull rushing into objects.

As for the railing/low wall, I'd say give the defender a bonus (maybe +4?) to his roll, which may or may not save him.
Nate Jones
09-23-06, 01:26 AM Sounds good. As always, I prefer to have rules give way to dramatic tension, and allowing what isn't explicitly stated by RAW is the way I'll continue to do things. I found however, that allowing 1d6 damage per 5 feet of bullrushing seemed a little over the top, possibly even breakable. By RAW, it would mean the bullrusher is accelerating the enemy at an equivalent rate to gravity. I think in the future, I'll use something along the lines of 1d6 per 10 feet, reflect save for half damage. Unless the bullrusher has a specific feat (If none currently exists, possibly lumped under Improved Bullrush), I'll rule that bullrushing an opponent into another person has no extra effect beyond whats listed in the PHB.
ATynam
09-23-06, 02:32 AM Can't help with the first part of the question, but as to an official take on railings and bullrush:

A character who is next to a railing gains a +2 circumstance bonus on his or her opposed Strength check to avoid being bull rushed off the edge.
fatal error
09-23-06, 12:18 PM Can't help with the first part of the question, but as to an official take on railings and bullrush:

Oh to have my DMG back! Still, since it's a low wall it counts as +4, right? Right. ;)
ATynam
09-23-06, 02:10 PM From what I can see a low wall will provide cover to attackers within 30' of the wall as long as the target is closer.

It still only gives a +2 circumstance bonus as a railing does.

A secondary bonus of a railing/low wall is that it gives a +5 balance sheck modifier for moving along the edge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nate Jones 09-21-06, 11:13 PM	I have two questions on bullrushing. Both arose last game session as one of my player's characters starting experimenting around with game mechanics. First, what happens when you bull-rush an opponent into a solid object? My player argued that the enemy is dealt 1d6 damage per 5 feet he should have gone, and I vaguely remember something to this effect, but I can find no mention of it in the rules. On a somewhat related note, how do you resolve bullrushing an opponent into another person? Last game, the favored soul attempted to bull-rush his opponent off the edge of a 100 foot high bridge. The bridge, however, had a 3-foot high railing spanning its length. How would you resolve this? Assuming the attempt was successful enough to push the opponent back at least 5 feet, would he just topple over the edge (With a save?), or would he just stop where at the edge? For the sake of keeping the game moving, I ruled that he would plumet over the edge, but was allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to grab on to the lower lip as he well. However, both the player and I would like a more definite ruling on the matter. Has anyone had a similar occurrence come up during play?
__DnD4Life__ 09-21-06, 11:32 PM	look at telekinetic thrust in the XPH. It has rules for creatures geting thrown against solid objects. It is a little different though. As for bullrushing into another person's space, that provokes an AoO for entering a creature's square. Im not to sure about the rest though.
kjenks 09-22-06, 11:33 AM	I have two questions on bullrushing. Both arose last game session as one of my player's characters starting experimenting around with game mechanics. First, what happens when you bull-rush an opponent into a solid object? My player argued that the enemy is dealt 1d6 damage per 5 feet he should have gone, and I vaguely remember something to this effect, but I can find no mention of it in the rules. There is nothing like that in the rules. (Well, the Explosive Spell metamagic feat in Complete Arcane is a little like that, but nothing in the bull rush rules.) When an attacker uses bull rush to push a defender into a solid object or other illegal square, use this rule: SRD === Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. === There are eight squares that are an equal distance from any given square (because the first diagonal is 5 ft. away). To determine the closest legal position: SRD === Closest Creature: When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die. === On a somewhat related note, how do you resolve bullrushing an opponent into another person? Same way. However, if the attacker has the Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior), he can use the Domino Rush tactic to get a free trip attack on both defenders. Last game, the favored soul attempted to bull-rush his opponent off the edge of a 100 foot high bridge. The bridge, however, had a 3-foot high railing spanning its length. How would you resolve this? Assuming the attempt was successful enough to push the opponent back at least 5 feet, would he just topple over the edge (With a save?), or would he just stop where at the edge? For the sake of keeping the game moving, I ruled that he would plumet over the edge, but was allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to grab on to the lower lip as he well. However, both the player and I would like a more definite ruling on the matter. Has anyone had a similar occurrence come up during play? There are no rules explicitly for that. I'd say pushing someone over a 3-ft. high railing was attempting to push the defender into an illegal square, so nobody falls over the edge. But your solution was more dramatic.
deanruel 09-22-06, 01:05 PM	There are no official rulings on either bullrushing into a wall or being pushed off of bridges (though there will inevitably be, one day). However I in my games would have used the exact same rules you have. I like the idea of a "crushing Bullrush" almost as much as I like the idea of someone getting tossed over a ledge. Both much more fun then simply putting up SRD restrictions and saying "no no". As a matter of interest in fact you will find that both of those rules (the bullrush and the rope-off) are covered explicitly by one rule in the D&D handbooks, a rule which in fact should be used more often than it is. Rule 0 is that you are the DM and what you think is fun and cool goes under the official ruling of "fun and cool" and has the full and total support of the entire Wizards Of The Coast company and it's affiliates. It's fun to be right isn't it. Keep on bullrushin homie.
fatal error 09-22-06, 02:43 PM	No official damages listed for bull rushing into objects. As for the railing/low wall, I'd say give the defender a bonus (maybe +4?) to his roll, which may or may not save him.
Nate Jones 09-23-06, 01:26 AM	Sounds good. As always, I prefer to have rules give way to dramatic tension, and allowing what isn't explicitly stated by RAW is the way I'll continue to do things. I found however, that allowing 1d6 damage per 5 feet of bullrushing seemed a little over the top, possibly even breakable. By RAW, it would mean the bullrusher is accelerating the enemy at an equivalent rate to gravity. I think in the future, I'll use something along the lines of 1d6 per 10 feet, reflect save for half damage. Unless the bullrusher has a specific feat (If none currently exists, possibly lumped under Improved Bullrush), I'll rule that bullrushing an opponent into another person has no extra effect beyond whats listed in the PHB.
ATynam 09-23-06, 02:32 AM	Can't help with the first part of the question, but as to an official take on railings and bullrush: A character who is next to a railing gains a +2 circumstance bonus on his or her opposed Strength check to avoid being bull rushed off the edge.
fatal error 09-23-06, 12:18 PM	Can't help with the first part of the question, but as to an official take on railings and bullrush: Oh to have my DMG back! Still, since it's a low wall it counts as +4, right? Right. ;)
ATynam 09-23-06, 02:10 PM	From what I can see a low wall will provide cover to attackers within 30' of the wall as long as the target is closer. It still only gives a +2 circumstance bonus as a railing does. A secondary bonus of a railing/low wall is that it gives a +5 balance sheck modifier for moving along the edge.