Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Finarin Panjoro 09-27-07, 03:11 PM	In an upcoming adventure there is a good chance that the PCs will cause a cave-in to trap a large creature. Assuming the creature is buried would it be considered helpless (and thus subject to coup de grace)? It is possible to be buried in the slide zone of a cavern collapse (by failing a Reflex Save) which seems to indicate that you would not necessarily have to be completely buried to fall under that condition. It also doesn't state that suffucation is a danger of being trapped in a collapse (which is probably an oversight), but it also seems like you could apply that to anyone trapped in the bury zone, but that someone in the slide zone might still be able to breathe. Again this seems to imply that you could still make an attack on something that was considered buried. That being the case I suspect they will make a coup de grace attempt if they succeed in trapping the creature. As long as I'm on the subject can you coup de grace with a ray spell (say scorching ray) if you're adjacent to a helpless target?
tarkin 09-27-07, 03:46 PM	I would say you are helpless but have total cover from most people. Even someone that you don't have total cover from would probably have better than the standard +4 cover, maybe the +8. But I would say you are helpless with no cover from an incorporeal creature. No coup de Graces with rays. They are not melee weapons nor bows or crossbows. The PHB could have said "you can also use a ranged attack provided you are adjacent", but they did not do that. They also could have said bow, crossbow or spell. They did not do that, so you can not coup de grace with a ray or other spell.
Finarin Panjoro 09-27-07, 05:08 PM	Right, but coup de grace could still be attempted on someone even with advanced cover (+8). Cover isn't a factor in coup de graces because its an automatic hit. Someone buried up to their neck in sand for example, helpless and extremely killable, but also recieving a significant cover bonus to AC if you're trying to hit them from far away with an arrow. So someone in the spill zone is concievably vulnerable to coup de grace. I wondered if perhaps a Sage advice had addressed coup de grace with a ray spell. Since you can critical hit with one it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable house rule, but I do realize that it would be a house rule.
ScipioX 09-27-07, 05:38 PM	If you are completely buried, then you'd probably be considered helpless, but you'd have complete cover versus anything corporeal. If you are only partially buried, you are probably not going to be helpless. A creature buried up to its waist, for example, would still be able to defend itself enough to ward off a coup de grace.
war_thog 09-28-07, 08:05 AM	If you're buried in a cave in a coup de grace is probably not what you are most worried about. Being crushed and suffocating to death I think is more pertinent. If you feel that a coup de grace was applicable *say everything but the head was buried* then I would rule you could. If the vitals are covered, you can't. Can't exactly coup de grace a foot. Basically if its covered enough to get full cover, then you can't attack it. If it isn't covered enough to be considered helpless then you can't coup de grace it. Up to you to decide.
jaelis 09-28-07, 08:31 AM	But I would say you are helpless with no cover from an incorporeal creature. I agree, but most (anyway many) incorporeal touch attacks don't deal hp damage, so they wouldn't be of much use for a coup de grace. (The free crit would still be nice, of course.)
Finarin Panjoro 09-28-07, 10:08 AM	If you are only partially buried, you are probably not going to be helpless. A creature buried up to its waist, for example, would still be able to defend itself enough to ward off a coup de grace. I guess this is the crux of the issue because the RAW only provides rules for being buried, you either are or you're not. There is no state of partially buried, even in the spill zone you're buried if you fail the save with all the same effects that someone in the bury zone suffers. There's no difference as far as I can tell. This seems to imply to me that if you're pinned under tons of dirt and rock some parts of you could still be exposed, especially if the creature in question is in the spill zone and is larger than a normal person. But by the rules their still buried and the rules don't even mention suffucation as a danger in the bury zone (though this seems obvious) which implies that you're not necessarily completely buried even there. Which is what has me wondering if you should be considered helpless or not. The answer could mean a lot if you're fighting an earth elemental who can glide through the rock to finish you off. As it stands I'm leaning toward considering someone buried in the spill zone to be pinned and prone. They can't attack or cast and suffer a -4 penalty to AC (-4 pinned, -4 prone, +4 cover) until they free themselves with a DC 25 Strength Check or a DC 30 Escape Artist Check. Someone buried in the bury zone has total cover and is helpless (though hard to attack). Actually now that I think about it that's what I'll consider it if they are capable of making a DC 25 strength check or a DC 30 Escape Artist check. If they have no hope of freeing themselves (Strength mod less than +5, Escape Artist less than +10, no applicable special ability) than I will consider them helpless. Under these conditions allowing a coup de grace is the same principle as allowing a Take 20. The creature can't move, attack, or free itself, so not allowing a coup de grace is just making the players roll to hit and damage a dozen times until they eventually kill it which is a waste of time and no fun.
1 ton ghost 09-28-07, 12:59 PM	not sure "how helpless" given intensity of cave-in and slide zone. i'd probably consider pinned via grapple. you can try and dig your way out, but it's almost impossible. some sporting chance no matter what i guess. lots of cover, maybe concealment from all the dust (treat as fog), choking, etc.