Calculating Critical Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calculating Critical Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JAX
06-02-06, 11:07 PM Recently got into a debate on just how this works. Here's the text on Critcals

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

Ok now the scenerio;

Rhutgar is a 20STR Barbarian that wields a +2 Flaming greatsword.
Normally his damage is;
2D6 for the Greatsword
+1D6 for the Flame
+2 damage for enhancement
+4 damage for STR

The mighty barbarian scores a critical hit which is x2 for the greatsword. Whats effected by the multiplier? I KNOW the flame damage is out but what about the other modifiers?
jaelis
06-02-06, 11:31 PM Everything but the flaming damage is multiplied. Basically, you multiply everything except additional damage dice.
__DnD4Life__
06-03-06, 12:32 AM Everything but the flaming damage is multiplied. Basically, you multiply everything except additional damage dice.
And power attack is not multiplied. I thought the enhancement to the weapon wasnt multiplied either.
FlameLover
06-03-06, 12:40 AM Rhutgar is a 20STR Barbarian that wields a +2 Flaming greatsword.
...
+4 damage for STR
Either the Barbarian has 18 Strength and a +4 modifier, or 20 Strength and a +5 modifier. It doesn't affect your question, just thought i'd point it out.

Everything but the flaming damage is multiplied. Basically, you multiply everything except additional damage dice.
I play with this ruling, as do most other people i've seen post about the matter.

And power attack is not multiplied. I thought the enhancement to the weapon wasnt multiplied either.
I'm not sure about that. I don't have a rules text to back me up here, but I've always thought flat bonuses got multiplied and extra damage dice didn't. Anyway have a refference saying one way or the other on this one?
Bob Loblaw
06-03-06, 01:04 AM From the SRD:
Multiplying Damage
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Critical Hits
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
I don’t look at it as multiplying the damage. I see it as the number of times I roll damage and add all the results together.

So, in your example:
2D6 for the Greatsword
+1D6 for the Flame
+2 damage for enhancement
+4 damage for STR

Damage: 2d6 +2 +4 + 2d6 +2 +4 +1d6 fire = 4d6 +12 +1d6 fire. Power Attack would be added to each time I would roll the damage. So if I Power Attacked for 4 points, then I would add +8 (this is a two-handed weapon) twice for a total of +16 to the result (4d6 +28 +1d6 fire)
Dragonteuthis
06-03-06, 01:04 AM Flamelover, read just about any description of critical hit, and it's extremely clear that power attack damge is added in. For starters, there's pages 114, 140, and 306 of the PHB. So yes, the rules back you up at least 300% :)

The only exception ever listed for criticals is bonus damage dice. DND4life is incorrect.

Also, Jax left out relevant parts of the critical hit description, which is quite possibly a source of the confusion.
__DnD4Life__
06-03-06, 01:07 AM I'm not sure about that. I don't have a rules text to back me up here, but I've always thought flat bonuses got multiplied and extra damage dice didn't. Anyway have a refference saying one way or the other on this one?
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.Well, it seems that it is up to interpretation. 'Extra damage' could be Pa and weapon enhancements, as well as Strength modifier. But, the 'with all your usual bonuses' could be those as well. It seems a little confusing. Ill look the the FAQ and post later.
JAX
06-03-06, 01:10 AM But what about the text;

"Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

It does'nt seem jive with the;

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."

They seem to contradict each other. What's normal damage? The base weapon damage or the weapon plus modifiers (i.e. STR, Power Attack)?
__DnD4Life__
06-03-06, 01:20 AM But what about the text;

"Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

It does'nt seem jive with the;

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."

They seem to contradict each other. What's normal damage? The base weapon damage or the weapon plus modifiers (i.e. STR, Power Attack)?
Yes. Now, this is getting me interested. In my groups, we usually just roll the die more, and add everything afterwards. So, a greataxe would be 3d12+strx1.5+enhancements and bonus dice. Now i really want to know the answer.
Nom
06-03-06, 01:33 AM "Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."The definitive rules are on PH pg 134 (emphasis mine), and they are unambiguous: "Exception: extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or a flaming sword, are never multiplied.".
ibayboy
06-03-06, 05:47 AM So a 10th lvl rogue with the Craven feat, doing a critical with a bow while sneak attacking, would multiply the +10 from the feat but not the sneak attack d6's. ouchie
VonRichthofen
06-03-06, 06:46 AM So a 10th lvl rogue with the Craven feat, doing a critical with a bow while sneak attacking, would multiply the +10 from the feat but not the sneak attack d6's. ouchie

NO.

This is bonus sneak attack damage. Does not multiply.
Craven is already one of the most overpowered feats around. Don't make it worse by thinking along the lines you just did! ;)
Merestil Haye
06-03-06, 07:15 AM Speaking as someone who does not know the Craven feat, can someone please tell me (a) where it is and (b) post the text on the bonus damage?

From the evidence in the thread so far I'd have to conclude the bonus damage does get multiplied because it is a flat modifier and not extra dice, VonRichoften's power level concerns notwithstanding. (If the feat explicitly states that it does not multiply on a critical, that's another matter.)
ibayboy
06-03-06, 09:25 AM Speaking as someone who does not know the Craven feat, can someone please tell me (a) where it is and (b) post the text on the bonus damage?

From the evidence in the thread so far I'd have to conclude the bonus damage does get multiplied because it is a flat modifier and not extra dice, VonRichoften's power level concerns notwithstanding. (If the feat explicitly states that it does not multiply on a critical, that's another matter.)

The feat is from Champions of Ruin. You take a -2 on all fear saves and get a +1 sneak attack damage per character level. Yes it is very overpowered at high levels. And no the feat says nothing about what you do in a critical situation.
MingThing
06-03-06, 09:38 AM the +1/lvl bonus on sneak attack is a set value, not a dice, so i expect it to multiply.
Bulletproof_Condom
06-03-06, 10:09 AM And power attack is not multiplied.
Yes it is.

The base weapon damage and all straight numerical bonuses get multiplied. You double the bonuses and roll the dice again.

Extra damage dice do not get multiplied. You roll them only once.

Power Attack, favored enemy, enhancement bonuses, Strength, Weapon Specialization, and the collision special ability all grant numerical bonuses.

Psionic Weapon, sneak attack, flaming et. al., holy et. al., and Flying Kick all grant extra dice.

That's it.
Dragonteuthis
06-03-06, 10:56 AM I don't know the Craven feat either. It would depend whether it says "Sneak attack damage is increased by +1 per die" or "When sneak attacking, deal +1 damage per die of sneak attack damage"

The former would not be mutliplied, since sneak attack damage is rolled seperately.

The latter would be multiplied.
Zherog
06-03-06, 11:16 AM Rhutgar is a 20STR Barbarian that wields a +2 Flaming greatsword.
Normally his damage is;
2D6 for the Greatsword
+1D6 for the Flame
+2 damage for enhancement
+4 damage for STR

Flamelover pointed out that the bonus for a 20 Strength is +5, not +4. That means the damage bonus would be +7 - the greatsword is a two-handed weapon, and so it applies 1.5 the Strength modifier (rounded down, of course).

***

I don't have the book with the Craven feat, but based on what I see here it looks like it would multiply on a critical hit - it's a bonus number, not bonus dice.
Merestil Haye
06-03-06, 12:18 PM The feat is from Champions of Ruin. You take a -2 on all fear saves and get a +1 sneak attack damage per character level. Yes it is very overpowered at high levels. And no the feat says nothing about what you do in a critical situation.Thanks.

I'm convinced that the damage multiplies; it's a numerical increase rather than extra dice.

It certainly seems overpowered. I shudder to think of what my group would have made of it in my last campaign - which is intended to continue at epic levels sometime. But in general I don't allow FR stuff into my campaign, and no-one in my group has the book anyway.

I think I'd probably modify it a bit.

"If you are threatened in combat, you take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws and skill checks per enemy that threatens you. You also have a -5 morale penalty to resist Intimidate attempts." (Added : and maybe allow them a Will save to halve the penalty during their turn.)

Then attack with a kobold mob. :P

Also, characters with levels in classes which grant +1 BAB/level may not take the feat, and lose the feat if they ever gain any levels in such a class. The same prohibition applies to any cleric of a deity with portfolios including Courage or War (Heironious, ot Tempus from FR, would be examples).
Wood
06-03-06, 01:03 PM I've said it before, and I'll say it again. When it comes to critical hits you roll up your damage the way you normally would and then double it (or apply whatever multiplier is applicable to the weapon). Yeah yeah, I know, "well according to the rules..." I say rules schmules. Just double it and lets get on with the game.
jaelis
06-03-06, 02:13 PM Thanks.

I'm convinced that the damage multiplies; it's a numerical increase rather than extra dice.

It's ambiguous, but I would say that the bonus in this case is actually modifying the SA damage, which is not multiplied on a critical.

For instance, if SA were 2-5 pts (1d4+1) instead of 1-6 pts (1d6), you wouldn't be inclined to make it 1d4+2 on a critical.
Merestil Haye
06-03-06, 04:50 PM It's ambiguous, but I would say that the bonus in this case is actually modifying the SA damage, which is not multiplied on a critical.

For instance, if SA were 2-5 pts (1d4+1) instead of 1-6 pts (1d6), you wouldn't be inclined to make it 1d4+2 on a critical.I'm not sure of your analysis without reading the full text of the feat.

The fact that SA is not doubled on a critical is not some intrinsic property of SA; it's due to the fact that the Rogue's class ability expresses it as a number of extra damage dice.

Until I get hold of a copy of the feat (read : someone in my group buys it and / or I visit the games shoppe in town) I won't make up my mind.

The text as quoted does not modify the SA damage dice output though; if it did I'd agree that it's not multiplied on a critical. It seems (from the knowledge we have) to be a flat number. As such it would be multiplied on a crit. Particularly note tht it varies with character level, not rogue class level, levels of classes with SA, or number of SA dice the character deals.

I'll reserve judgement until I've read the feat for myself.
Harmony
06-03-06, 05:25 PM Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
(Bold emphasis mine!)

If the damage is classed as sneak attack damage, it dosen't get mutliplied by the defining rules of sneak attack. Likewise, if a feat of some sort would allow you to make each sneak attack die average, you wouldn't get to multply this static sum as sneak attack damage per its own rules dosen't allow it.
jaelis
06-03-06, 05:32 PM I'll reserve judgement until I've read the feat for myself.

Well, you're probably right to do that. I was going off the statement: "You take a -2 on all fear saves and get a +1 sneak attack damage per character level." If that's accurate, then I would say it is modifying your sneak attack roll. But the feat might well be worded differently.
ibayboy
06-03-06, 09:33 PM (Bold emphasis mine!)

If the damage is classed as sneak attack damage, it dosen't get mutliplied by the defining rules of sneak attack. Likewise, if a feat of some sort would allow you to make each sneak attack die average, you wouldn't get to multply this static sum as sneak attack damage per its own rules dosen't allow it.

This is a very good point and has me leaning the way of not multiplying the bonus damage from Craven.
Oliver D'Argent
06-04-06, 12:59 AM As far as the original scenario goes, it would look like this:

2d6 for the Greatsword
+2 damage for enhancement
+7 damage for STR
+1d6 for the Flame

Normal hit:
2d6 + 9 + 1d6[fire]
Which gives you:
Minimum: 11 pts + 1 pt[fire]
Average: 16 pts + 3.5 pts[fire]
Maximum: 21 pts + 6 pts[fire]

Critical hit:
4d6 + 18 + 1d6[fire]
Which gives you:
Minimum: 22 pts + 1 pt[fire]
Average: 32 pts + 3.5 pts[fire]
Maximum: 42 pts + 6 pts[fire]

If the Barbarian in the example is 10th level and has the Power Attack feat, he could reduce his attack rolls by 10 that round and increase any damage done by 20 (because it is a non-light melee weapon being wielded with two hands). If that were the case, the damage would look like this:

Normal hit:
2d6 + 29 + 1d6[fire]
Which gives you:
Minimum: 31 pts + 1 pt[fire]
Average: 36 pts + 3.5 pts[fire]
Maximum: 41 pts + 6 pts[fire]

Critical hit:
4d6 + 58 + 1d6[fire]
Which gives you:
Minimum: 62 pts + 1 pt[fire]
Average: 72 pts + 3.5 pts[fire]
Maximum: 82 pts + 6 pts[fire]

It would reduce his chance to hit by quite a bit (barring feats, class abilities, and spells that would increase that chance), but anything that did connect would do a lot of damage.
MADGator
06-04-06, 01:44 PM Ok, the PHB varies a bit on its wording. In some places it says extra damage is not multiplied, and in others, it says extra damage dice are not. In all the cases where it states extra damage, however, the examples stated are extra damage from dice. To me this implies that extra damage from dice is ignored, but other bonuses are not. A couple of pasages I think might be halpful are:

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once with all your usual bonuses, and add the roll together."* -3.5 PHB, pg. 140

"Critical hit damage is usually double damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times."* -3.5 PHB, pg. 307

*-Emphases mine.

Interpreting this as logically as possible, I believe the proper way to resolve critical damage is NOT to multily at all! You ADD! Let me explain the proccess as I see it. Once you have confirmed your critical hit, follow these steps.

Step 1: Roll for damage as if you had made a single, normal hit. Add in damage from all flat bonuses, such as strength, smiting, power attack, weapon enhancement, etc.

Step 2: Repeat Step 1 a number of time equal to the critical mulitplier-1. Add in all the same bonuses as in step 1.

Step 3: Add up the toal amount of damage from steps 1 through 2, and record it.

Step 4: Roll any extra damage dice you would recieve during a single attack of the type made, such as the dice from a sneak attacks or the flaming ability.

Step 5: Add the damage totals from step 3 and step 4. This sum is your critical damage.

That work for the rest of you guys?
Zherog
06-04-06, 02:10 PM Yep.
Merestil Haye
06-04-06, 07:15 PM I've had a chance to read the feat.

The feat modifies the character's sneak attack roll. A 5th level rogue with the Craven feat does not do 3d6 sneak attack; he does 3d6+5. This leads me to the opinion that the bonus is not multiplied, since the SA damage is (bonus dice + modifier)..

There is precedent for this; if you empower a spell which has a result expressed as a number of dice plus a constant, the constant is reckoned into the result prior to the 50% uplift for Empowerment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JAX 06-02-06, 11:07 PM	Recently got into a debate on just how this works. Here's the text on Critcals "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." Ok now the scenerio; Rhutgar is a 20STR Barbarian that wields a +2 Flaming greatsword. Normally his damage is; 2D6 for the Greatsword +1D6 for the Flame +2 damage for enhancement +4 damage for STR The mighty barbarian scores a critical hit which is x2 for the greatsword. Whats effected by the multiplier? I KNOW the flame damage is out but what about the other modifiers?
jaelis 06-02-06, 11:31 PM	Everything but the flaming damage is multiplied. Basically, you multiply everything except additional damage dice.
__DnD4Life__ 06-03-06, 12:32 AM	Everything but the flaming damage is multiplied. Basically, you multiply everything except additional damage dice. And power attack is not multiplied. I thought the enhancement to the weapon wasnt multiplied either.
FlameLover 06-03-06, 12:40 AM	Rhutgar is a 20STR Barbarian that wields a +2 Flaming greatsword. ... +4 damage for STR Either the Barbarian has 18 Strength and a +4 modifier, or 20 Strength and a +5 modifier. It doesn't affect your question, just thought i'd point it out. Everything but the flaming damage is multiplied. Basically, you multiply everything except additional damage dice. I play with this ruling, as do most other people i've seen post about the matter. And power attack is not multiplied. I thought the enhancement to the weapon wasnt multiplied either. I'm not sure about that. I don't have a rules text to back me up here, but I've always thought flat bonuses got multiplied and extra damage dice didn't. Anyway have a refference saying one way or the other on this one?
Bob Loblaw 06-03-06, 01:04 AM	From the SRD: Multiplying Damage Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. Critical Hits When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. I don’t look at it as multiplying the damage. I see it as the number of times I roll damage and add all the results together. So, in your example: 2D6 for the Greatsword +1D6 for the Flame +2 damage for enhancement +4 damage for STR Damage: 2d6 +2 +4 + 2d6 +2 +4 +1d6 fire = 4d6 +12 +1d6 fire. Power Attack would be added to each time I would roll the damage. So if I Power Attacked for 4 points, then I would add +8 (this is a two-handed weapon) twice for a total of +16 to the result (4d6 +28 +1d6 fire)
Dragonteuthis 06-03-06, 01:04 AM	Flamelover, read just about any description of critical hit, and it's extremely clear that power attack damge is added in. For starters, there's pages 114, 140, and 306 of the PHB. So yes, the rules back you up at least 300% :) The only exception ever listed for criticals is bonus damage dice. DND4life is incorrect. Also, Jax left out relevant parts of the critical hit description, which is quite possibly a source of the confusion.
__DnD4Life__ 06-03-06, 01:07 AM	I'm not sure about that. I don't have a rules text to back me up here, but I've always thought flat bonuses got multiplied and extra damage dice didn't. Anyway have a refference saying one way or the other on this one? A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.Well, it seems that it is up to interpretation. 'Extra damage' could be Pa and weapon enhancements, as well as Strength modifier. But, the 'with all your usual bonuses' could be those as well. It seems a little confusing. Ill look the the FAQ and post later.
JAX 06-03-06, 01:10 AM	But what about the text; "Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." It does'nt seem jive with the; "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." They seem to contradict each other. What's normal damage? The base weapon damage or the weapon plus modifiers (i.e. STR, Power Attack)?
__DnD4Life__ 06-03-06, 01:20 AM	But what about the text; "Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." It does'nt seem jive with the; "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." They seem to contradict each other. What's normal damage? The base weapon damage or the weapon plus modifiers (i.e. STR, Power Attack)? Yes. Now, this is getting me interested. In my groups, we usually just roll the die more, and add everything afterwards. So, a greataxe would be 3d12+strx1.5+enhancements and bonus dice. Now i really want to know the answer.
Nom 06-03-06, 01:33 AM	"Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."The definitive rules are on PH pg 134 (emphasis mine), and they are unambiguous: "Exception: extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or a flaming sword, are never multiplied.".
ibayboy 06-03-06, 05:47 AM	So a 10th lvl rogue with the Craven feat, doing a critical with a bow while sneak attacking, would multiply the +10 from the feat but not the sneak attack d6's. ouchie
VonRichthofen 06-03-06, 06:46 AM	So a 10th lvl rogue with the Craven feat, doing a critical with a bow while sneak attacking, would multiply the +10 from the feat but not the sneak attack d6's. ouchie NO. This is bonus sneak attack damage. Does not multiply. Craven is already one of the most overpowered feats around. Don't make it worse by thinking along the lines you just did! ;)
Merestil Haye 06-03-06, 07:15 AM	Speaking as someone who does not know the Craven feat, can someone please tell me (a) where it is and (b) post the text on the bonus damage? From the evidence in the thread so far I'd have to conclude the bonus damage does get multiplied because it is a flat modifier and not extra dice, VonRichoften's power level concerns notwithstanding. (If the feat explicitly states that it does not multiply on a critical, that's another matter.)
ibayboy 06-03-06, 09:25 AM	Speaking as someone who does not know the Craven feat, can someone please tell me (a) where it is and (b) post the text on the bonus damage? From the evidence in the thread so far I'd have to conclude the bonus damage does get multiplied because it is a flat modifier and not extra dice, VonRichoften's power level concerns notwithstanding. (If the feat explicitly states that it does not multiply on a critical, that's another matter.) The feat is from Champions of Ruin. You take a -2 on all fear saves and get a +1 sneak attack damage per character level. Yes it is very overpowered at high levels. And no the feat says nothing about what you do in a critical situation.
MingThing 06-03-06, 09:38 AM	the +1/lvl bonus on sneak attack is a set value, not a dice, so i expect it to multiply.
Bulletproof_Condom 06-03-06, 10:09 AM	And power attack is not multiplied. Yes it is. The base weapon damage and all straight numerical bonuses get multiplied. You double the bonuses and roll the dice again. Extra damage dice do not get multiplied. You roll them only once. Power Attack, favored enemy, enhancement bonuses, Strength, Weapon Specialization, and the collision special ability all grant numerical bonuses. Psionic Weapon, sneak attack, flaming et. al., holy et. al., and Flying Kick all grant extra dice. That's it.
Dragonteuthis 06-03-06, 10:56 AM	I don't know the Craven feat either. It would depend whether it says "Sneak attack damage is increased by +1 per die" or "When sneak attacking, deal +1 damage per die of sneak attack damage" The former would not be mutliplied, since sneak attack damage is rolled seperately. The latter would be multiplied.
Zherog 06-03-06, 11:16 AM	Rhutgar is a 20STR Barbarian that wields a +2 Flaming greatsword. Normally his damage is; 2D6 for the Greatsword +1D6 for the Flame +2 damage for enhancement +4 damage for STR Flamelover pointed out that the bonus for a 20 Strength is +5, not +4. That means the damage bonus would be +7 - the greatsword is a two-handed weapon, and so it applies 1.5 the Strength modifier (rounded down, of course). *** I don't have the book with the Craven feat, but based on what I see here it looks like it would multiply on a critical hit - it's a bonus number, not bonus dice.
Merestil Haye 06-03-06, 12:18 PM	The feat is from Champions of Ruin. You take a -2 on all fear saves and get a +1 sneak attack damage per character level. Yes it is very overpowered at high levels. And no the feat says nothing about what you do in a critical situation.Thanks. I'm convinced that the damage multiplies; it's a numerical increase rather than extra dice. It certainly seems overpowered. I shudder to think of what my group would have made of it in my last campaign - which is intended to continue at epic levels sometime. But in general I don't allow FR stuff into my campaign, and no-one in my group has the book anyway. I think I'd probably modify it a bit. "If you are threatened in combat, you take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws and skill checks per enemy that threatens you. You also have a -5 morale penalty to resist Intimidate attempts." (Added : and maybe allow them a Will save to halve the penalty during their turn.) Then attack with a kobold mob. :P Also, characters with levels in classes which grant +1 BAB/level may not take the feat, and lose the feat if they ever gain any levels in such a class. The same prohibition applies to any cleric of a deity with portfolios including Courage or War (Heironious, ot Tempus from FR, would be examples).
Wood 06-03-06, 01:03 PM	I've said it before, and I'll say it again. When it comes to critical hits you roll up your damage the way you normally would and then double it (or apply whatever multiplier is applicable to the weapon). Yeah yeah, I know, "well according to the rules..." I say rules schmules. Just double it and lets get on with the game.
jaelis 06-03-06, 02:13 PM	Thanks. I'm convinced that the damage multiplies; it's a numerical increase rather than extra dice. It's ambiguous, but I would say that the bonus in this case is actually modifying the SA damage, which is not multiplied on a critical. For instance, if SA were 2-5 pts (1d4+1) instead of 1-6 pts (1d6), you wouldn't be inclined to make it 1d4+2 on a critical.
Merestil Haye 06-03-06, 04:50 PM	It's ambiguous, but I would say that the bonus in this case is actually modifying the SA damage, which is not multiplied on a critical. For instance, if SA were 2-5 pts (1d4+1) instead of 1-6 pts (1d6), you wouldn't be inclined to make it 1d4+2 on a critical.I'm not sure of your analysis without reading the full text of the feat. The fact that SA is not doubled on a critical is not some intrinsic property of SA; it's due to the fact that the Rogue's class ability expresses it as a number of extra damage dice. Until I get hold of a copy of the feat (read : someone in my group buys it and / or I visit the games shoppe in town) I won't make up my mind. The text as quoted does not modify the SA damage dice output though; if it did I'd agree that it's not multiplied on a critical. It seems (from the knowledge we have) to be a flat number. As such it would be multiplied on a crit. Particularly note tht it varies with character level, not rogue class level, levels of classes with SA, or number of SA dice the character deals. I'll reserve judgement until I've read the feat for myself.
Harmony 06-03-06, 05:25 PM	Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. (Bold emphasis mine!) If the damage is classed as sneak attack damage, it dosen't get mutliplied by the defining rules of sneak attack. Likewise, if a feat of some sort would allow you to make each sneak attack die average, you wouldn't get to multply this static sum as sneak attack damage per its own rules dosen't allow it.
jaelis 06-03-06, 05:32 PM	I'll reserve judgement until I've read the feat for myself. Well, you're probably right to do that. I was going off the statement: "You take a -2 on all fear saves and get a +1 sneak attack damage per character level." If that's accurate, then I would say it is modifying your sneak attack roll. But the feat might well be worded differently.
ibayboy 06-03-06, 09:33 PM	(Bold emphasis mine!) If the damage is classed as sneak attack damage, it dosen't get mutliplied by the defining rules of sneak attack. Likewise, if a feat of some sort would allow you to make each sneak attack die average, you wouldn't get to multply this static sum as sneak attack damage per its own rules dosen't allow it. This is a very good point and has me leaning the way of not multiplying the bonus damage from Craven.
Oliver D'Argent 06-04-06, 12:59 AM	As far as the original scenario goes, it would look like this: 2d6 for the Greatsword +2 damage for enhancement +7 damage for STR +1d6 for the Flame Normal hit: 2d6 + 9 + 1d6[fire] Which gives you: Minimum: 11 pts + 1 pt[fire] Average: 16 pts + 3.5 pts[fire] Maximum: 21 pts + 6 pts[fire] Critical hit: 4d6 + 18 + 1d6[fire] Which gives you: Minimum: 22 pts + 1 pt[fire] Average: 32 pts + 3.5 pts[fire] Maximum: 42 pts + 6 pts[fire] If the Barbarian in the example is 10th level and has the Power Attack feat, he could reduce his attack rolls by 10 that round and increase any damage done by 20 (because it is a non-light melee weapon being wielded with two hands). If that were the case, the damage would look like this: Normal hit: 2d6 + 29 + 1d6[fire] Which gives you: Minimum: 31 pts + 1 pt[fire] Average: 36 pts + 3.5 pts[fire] Maximum: 41 pts + 6 pts[fire] Critical hit: 4d6 + 58 + 1d6[fire] Which gives you: Minimum: 62 pts + 1 pt[fire] Average: 72 pts + 3.5 pts[fire] Maximum: 82 pts + 6 pts[fire] It would reduce his chance to hit by quite a bit (barring feats, class abilities, and spells that would increase that chance), but anything that did connect would do a lot of damage.
MADGator 06-04-06, 01:44 PM	Ok, the PHB varies a bit on its wording. In some places it says extra damage is not multiplied, and in others, it says extra damage dice are not. In all the cases where it states extra damage, however, the examples stated are extra damage from dice. To me this implies that extra damage from dice is ignored, but other bonuses are not. A couple of pasages I think might be halpful are: "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once with all your usual bonuses, and add the roll together."* -3.5 PHB, pg. 140 "Critical hit damage is usually double damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times."* -3.5 PHB, pg. 307 *-Emphases mine. Interpreting this as logically as possible, I believe the proper way to resolve critical damage is NOT to multily at all! You ADD! Let me explain the proccess as I see it. Once you have confirmed your critical hit, follow these steps. Step 1: Roll for damage as if you had made a single, normal hit. Add in damage from all flat bonuses, such as strength, smiting, power attack, weapon enhancement, etc. Step 2: Repeat Step 1 a number of time equal to the critical mulitplier-1. Add in all the same bonuses as in step 1. Step 3: Add up the toal amount of damage from steps 1 through 2, and record it. Step 4: Roll any extra damage dice you would recieve during a single attack of the type made, such as the dice from a sneak attacks or the flaming ability. Step 5: Add the damage totals from step 3 and step 4. This sum is your critical damage. That work for the rest of you guys?
Zherog 06-04-06, 02:10 PM	Yep.
Merestil Haye 06-04-06, 07:15 PM	I've had a chance to read the feat. The feat modifies the character's sneak attack roll. A 5th level rogue with the Craven feat does not do 3d6 sneak attack; he does 3d6+5. This leads me to the opinion that the bonus is not multiplied, since the SA damage is (bonus dice + modifier).. There is precedent for this; if you empower a spell which has a result expressed as a number of dice plus a constant, the constant is reckoned into the result prior to the 50% uplift for Empowerment.