Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Visigo7h 10-08-07, 11:45 PM	I remember reading somewhere rules for called shots for 3.5 or the d20 system does anyone know where they are? thx.
Crimson_Concerto 10-08-07, 11:52 PM	You are mistaken. They do not exist, at least not outside of maneuvers such as tripping, disarming, sneak-attacking, critical hits, Power Attack, etc., and that's a good thing, really. Honestly, characters are always assumed to be aiming for vital places, etc., and if you WERE to implement house rules of called shots, they ALWAYS either have penalties too harsh to make them of any real use, or they're much too easily abused (True Strike, etc.).
zeratulcraft 10-08-07, 11:52 PM	Nope, called shots are not in 3.5 anymore. Some monsters (such as the Hydra) have a special set of rules for called shots detailed in their description, but aside from that, they don't exist anymore.
runestar 10-09-07, 12:50 AM	Called shots don't work in 3ed, which is why they were removed. Low lv PCs cannot make them, and higher lv PCs will always make them.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 10-09-07, 01:56 PM	I find the lack of called shots boring. Which is why my DND group refer to the 2nd edition called shot charts. Its not fun unless u get to use every realistic attack style u want to. Examples: I want to cut off the theifs hand, put an arrow through the beholders antimagic eye, throw a javelin threw the vampires heart, or send a warhammer towards somebodys nuts. If you have no reference material make up a chart for yourself and see if the DM will implement it. General rule is a -4 for limb called shots and a -8 for organ and artery shots (yes an eye is considered an organ). Negatives may vary due to creature size and anatomy such as the beholder central eye I'd rule a -4 to attack.
Vharuck 10-09-07, 06:08 PM	I find the lack of called shots boring. Which is why my DND group refer to the 2nd edition called shot charts. Its not fun unless u get to use every realistic attack style u want to. Examples: I want to cut off the theifs hand, put an arrow through the beholders antimagic eye, throw a javelin threw the vampires heart, or send a warhammer towards somebodys nuts. If you have no reference material make up a chart for yourself and see if the DM will implement it. General rule is a -4 for limb called shots and a -8 for organ and artery shots (yes an eye is considered an organ). Negatives may vary due to creature size and anatomy such as the beholder central eye I'd rule a -4 to attack. But what about "put an arrow in his eye?" I mean, it's unarmored. Sure it would have a big penalty but... true strike. Or heck, a full BAB class might not even need to boost its attack really. The first attack is almost a guaranteed hit, and if you're aiming at minions then everything's going down in one shot.
Meikle_641 10-09-07, 07:28 PM	There are called shots in D&D, just not the sort most think of. On pg 27 of the DMG it lists how you can attack a specific area on the body in return for a penalty to hit and the target getting a penalty to things like certain skills or speed.
Salla 10-09-07, 07:39 PM	I find the lack of called shots boring. Which is why my DND group refer to the 2nd edition called shot charts. Its not fun unless u get to use every realistic attack style u want to. I'd rather have the game be balanced. The problem with this is that the bad guys can do it as well. It's funny when Gobbo the Goblin gets a leg lopped off and starts making like Monty Python's black knight ("It's just a flesh wound."), but if that happens to a PC at a level before regeneration magic is available, that PC is as good as dead ... not in the 'bleed to death' way, but in the 'he's completely useless'. The PC has to be retired, because he can't pull his own weight, and the player has to go through the whole rigamarole of making, and introducing another character. And then it happens AGAIN. See also: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/calledshots.html
Bauglir 10-09-07, 07:39 PM	Meikle: Sort of. There's a table of what damage to specific areas does, but there's no listed penalty for attack rolls; it's just for such things as special traps or special situations that aren't likely to come up in combat.
Salla 10-09-07, 07:41 PM	Meikle: Sort of. There's a table of what damage to specific areas does, but there's no listed penalty for attack rolls; it's just for such things as special traps or special situations that aren't likely to come up in combat. Exactly, it's more for stuff like "I try to pluck the map out of the fireplace before it's completely destroyed" and your hand is burned.
Meikle_641 10-09-07, 07:54 PM	Well, given how most of the penalties are fairly minor, a simple -4 would be fair, I'd think.
groveborn 10-10-07, 03:40 AM	Sure, minor. I shoot the fighter in the hand. Ok, now he can't wield a weapon. Nice. I shoot the minitaur in the eye, now it can't see. It misses 50% of the time. No called shots. If you really want called shots, make it need a natural 20, and then have to have been called prior. If it's not a 20, then it misses altogether. That's balanced enough I think. Also, a side note, if a player is making several 20's, he's cheating. 20 is as likely as 1, and 3, and 19. :) I think 5 is more common, but I have to consult my very complex d20 chart of how to calculate a particular number.
deathbane 10-10-07, 04:53 AM	Well, given how most of the penalties are fairly minor, a simple -4 would be fair, I'd think. What if the NPC(giant or minotaur) makes a called shot to your neck. Who needs vorpal. <----rhetorical question
Cifer 10-10-07, 09:09 AM	The best rule for called shots I've found was this one: You can call a shot to whatever place you like with whatever result you want to. Make a normal attack. If it deals [current HP of your enemy +10] points of damage, it does exactly what you wanted it to do.
zeroorez 10-10-07, 09:51 AM	The best rule for called shots I've found was this one: You can call a shot to whatever place you like with whatever result you want to. Make a normal attack. If it deals [current HP of your enemy +10] points of damage, it does exactly what you wanted it to do. where is this from? wow this thread is really interesting, i remeber called shots from 2nd ed but i dont remeber people using them to offten. but without them why do we need to know regeneration can regrow or connect lost limbs, its just usless info if no one can loose a limb in the first place. but i guess if there is no rules for chopping of limbs the best it just go with sunder like you do with the hydra and other creatures with tenticals so you arms have 10hp and with a successful sunder i lop one off. maybe make the body parts have a hp that is dependent on the total hp of the creature so the arms are 20%(total hp) so a bigger creature get more hp for its limbs also any damage done with a sunder to a limb does not go towards the total wounds for the creature this means that players run the risk of wasting attacks. so then we need basic rules for what happens to limbless creatures i guess you lose a leg then you balance on the other leg or fall prone you lose an arm then no twf or two handed fighting you lose your head then blinded deff and cant speak
The_Wrath_of_Talos 10-10-07, 10:38 AM	I'd rather have the game be balanced. The problem with this is that the bad guys can do it as well. It's funny when Gobbo the Goblin gets a leg lopped off and starts making like Monty Python's black knight ("It's just a flesh wound."), but if that happens to a PC at a level before regeneration magic is available, that PC is as good as dead ... not in the 'bleed to death' way, but in the 'he's completely useless'. The PC has to be retired, because he can't pull his own weight, and the player has to go through the whole rigamarole of making, and introducing another character. And then it happens AGAIN. See also: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/calledshots.html Exactly thats what make things interesting and may even define your charector more. Lets say you loose a leg or an arm before regenerative magic is available and your cleric gets to you before all the blood flows out of your severed limb. Your charector isn't useless, their are plenty of artifical limbs or grafts available for your charector. His arm could be replaced with a stump knife and his leg could be replace by a fiendish, undead, or any other graft available on the market, if nothing else the peg leg option is open.
RobbyPants 10-10-07, 11:32 AM	Actually, there are called shots in 3.x, if you're creative. Sneak Attack - You strike a vital area for more damage. Your penalty comes in the form of needing an opportunity (opponent flanked or denied his Dex bonus to AC). Hamstring - This feat lets you sacrifice Sneak Attack damage to slow your opponent down. Atrerial Strike - This feat lets you sacrifice Sneak Attack damage to cause a bleeding wound (continuous damage). Death Attack - This ability allows you to kill an opponent after studying him. Power Attack - Granted, it's a liberal interpretation, but consider modifying the flavor. Any way you slice it, you take a penalty to hit to deal more damage. Trip - Your opponent is prone. Disarm - Your opponent has no weapon. Sunder - Called shot to a weapon or shield. And this is far from an exhaustive list. Just because you aren't premanently blinding someone or severing their head doesn't mean you aren't calling a shot. Remember that HP in D&D are deliberately kept abstract. Dealing extra HP damage is a faster way to disable your opponent. The game does support all sorts of variations to simply "I swing, I hit, I deal damage". Use them, and you will find combat less boring. Although, per the standard interpretation of called shots (i.e. -4 or -8 to hit to totally pwn some body part), I agree that they have no place in 3.x.
Cifer 10-10-07, 12:39 PM	but without them why do we need to know regeneration can regrow or connect lost limbs, its just usless info if no one can loose a limb in the first place. Because there may be situations (quite probably out of straight-forward combat) where losing a limb is an option. so you arms have 10hp and with a successful sunder i lop one off. maybe make the body parts have a hp that is dependent on the total hp of the creature so the arms are 20%(total hp) so a bigger creature get more hp for its limbs also any damage done with a sunder to a limb does not go towards the total wounds for the creature this means that players run the risk of wasting attacks. so then we need basic rules for what happens to limbless creatures i guess you lose a leg then you balance on the other leg or fall prone you lose an arm then no twf or two handed fighting you lose your head then blinded deff and cant speak 20%? Ok, forget sawing your way through the D12 of that pesky dragon - just lop off its head! Exactly thats what make things interesting and may even define your charector more. Lets say you loose a leg or an arm before regenerative magic is available and your cleric gets to you before all the blood flows out of your severed limb. Your charector isn't useless, their are plenty of artifical limbs or grafts available for your charector. His arm could be replaced with a stump knife and his leg could be replace by a fiendish, undead, or any other graft available on the market, if nothing else the peg leg option is open. Right. Except for the fact that most grafts are pretty much Evil-only and tend to begin at 6000 gp. And would you really have fun playing a character with a stump knife? More to the point, would you enjoy a fighter with a stump knife when you have Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus and Improved Critical for your trusty greatsword? And finally, would you enjoy playing that character during the session where he loses the limb and is deep in a dungeon? The problem with Called Shots becomes easily apparent when you're up against, say, 5 kobold sorcerers with crossbows and True Strike. Guess that's about 5 eyes less on your characters, pass out the eyepatches...
zeroorez 10-10-07, 02:32 PM	"Because there may be situations (quite probably out of straight-forward combat) where losing a limb is an option." where othere then the special creatures that allow for it. "20%? Ok, forget sawing your way through the D12 of that pesky dragon - just lop off its head!" i didnt say that head loss was instant kill
The_Wrath_of_Talos 10-10-07, 02:46 PM	Right. Except for the fact that most grafts are pretty much Evil-only and tend to begin at 6000 gp. And would you really have fun playing a character with a stump knife? More to the point, would you enjoy a fighter with a stump knife when you have Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Focus and Improved Critical for your trusty greatsword? And finally, would you enjoy playing that character during the session where he loses the limb and is deep in a dungeon? The problem with Called Shots becomes easily apparent when you're up against, say, 5 kobold sorcerers with crossbows and True Strike. Guess that's about 5 eyes less on your characters, pass out the eyepatches... Yes grafts can be spendy and a stump knife may not be your weapon of choice but a couple lvls in warblade will allow for a nice easy transaction for those specialized feats. Also a stump knife cant be that hard to craft even down in the dungeon. But you are correct an eyeless party wouldn't be that fun. Most DM's out there arent gonna be that big of dicks though, at least not the ones I've encountered. The only reason a DM would logically take out every sensory organ in the party would be to end the current campaign.
RobbyPants 10-10-07, 03:31 PM	i didnt say that head loss was instant kill Maybe not if you're a troll, undead, or a construct. Other than that, it seems pretty likely. :P
deathbane 10-10-07, 04:48 PM	Yes grafts can be spendy and a stump knife may not be your weapon of choice but a couple lvls in warblade will allow for a nice easy transaction for those specialized feats. Also a stump knife cant be that hard to craft even down in the dungeon. But you are correct an eyeless party wouldn't be that fun. Most DM's out there arent gonna be that big of dicks though, at least not the ones I've encountered. The only reason a DM would logically take out every sensory organ in the party would be to end the current campaign. If the PC's can it do then the NPC's can do it. One of the few reason DM's don't use instadeath spells to much is, other than tpking(sometimes) is because if the player makes the save, that is one round wasted, and they could have at least done a damaging spell, or a spell such as cloud kill that makes things difficult. With called shots you have many attacks per round so shooting at people's throats and missing is not as bad as losing a spell. Not only that, fortification armor protects from crits, but there is no protection from this. If I split your foot in half with an axe you wont be walking. If I ready an action to take off your elbow when you attack, your sword swinging days are over also. People would be one the boards complaining about how some hiding or invis'd enemies got the jump on then and took out certain body parts. Do you really want scorching ray or disintegrate directed at your throat? The people who are for this are not seeing all the bad things the DM could do to them, and be perfectly within the rules to do so. True strike would definitely become the spell of choice.
Cifer 10-10-07, 05:39 PM	where othere then the special creatures that allow for it. "You are convicted of stealing. Hangman, could you please sharpen that axe?" i didnt say that head loss was instant kill In this case, I revise my opinion: Called shots are not unbalancing - they're silly. Yes grafts can be spendy and a stump knife may not be your weapon of choice but a couple lvls in warblade will allow for a nice easy transaction for those specialized feats. Also a stump knife cant be that hard to craft even down in the dungeon. Oh, did I forget to say that I specialize in disarming, powerattacking and general two-handedness? When I create characters, I have a certain picture in my mind that I want them to become. There once was a character in another system whom I planned to have mutilated (lost his eyes and got cybernetic ones), which is why I talked about this with the DM. It's still one of my favorite characters. On the other hand side, there are also characters whom I would promptly retire if there was no way to regain use of their limbs in the foreseeable future. But you are correct an eyeless party wouldn't be that fun. Most DM's out there arent gonna be that big of dicks though, at least not the ones I've encountered. The only reason a DM would logically take out every sensory organ in the party would be to end the current campaign. I'd prefer if the DM would be able to use as many toys of his arsenal as possible. I already go somewhat easy on the save-or-die spells, but handing a party an easy way to disable enemies without being able to use that way myself without feeling guilty doesn't really sound good to me.
MnemonicSV 10-11-07, 04:43 AM	Here's a "called shot" system I came up with in the past (but alas, never had the chance to test out). It would be classified as a "special attack." ---------- Called Shot You can make a called shot attempt as a standard action (an attack). When you make a called shot, you attempt to damage a specific part of an opponent's body, instead of damaging whatever part of the opponent's body is most vulnerable at the moment. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you are making a called shot attempt against. (If you have the Improved Called Shot feat, you do not incur an attack of opportunity for making a called shot attempt.) If the defender's attack of opportunity deals any damage, your called shot attempt fails. Step 2: Attack Roll. You make an attack roll with a -4 penalty. (If you have the Improved Called Shot feat, you do not incur a -4 penalty to the attack roll.) The defender gains a special size bonus to AC (overiding it's usual size bonus to AC), depending on the size of the appendage you are attempting to strike. Use the following table to determine what the defender's special size bonus to AC is for that appendage (for non-humanoid creatures, the DM may need to make judgement calls): Arm or Leg: One size category smaller than creature's usual size. Hand, Foot, or Head: Two size categories smaller than creature's usual size. One Eye or One Ear: Three size categories smaller than creature's usual size. Step 3: Critical Hit? If the attack missed, you have failed to cause any damage to the creature. If the attack was successful (but did not result in a critical hit), resolve damage normally (the specific damage is cosmetic-only for game purposes). If the attack was successful and resulted in a critical hit, the specific appendage of the creature's body has sustained damage. In addition to resolving damage normally, refer to pg 27 of the Dungeon Master's Guide to determine what additional penalty should be applied to the defender, depending on the specific area damaged. Note: Any creature that is not subject to critical hits suffers no penalties to having a specific part of their body damaged. The DM always has the final say on what appendages may be targeted; For example: The DM may rule you cannot target an eye with a club (without simply hitting the head), or that a helmet prevents you from targeting an ear, or that an appendage may simply be out of reach (depending on creature size and position). ---------- I was thinking about adding a variant, by which a 20-20-hit would automatically sever/crush/impale the appendage, rendering it permanently damaged (requiring use of regeneration or a similar effect to repair), and would not instantly kill the creature (unless the head was targeted). Obviously, use of this special attack would be easier with an Improved Called Shot feat, which is in essence described above. Of course, I never had a chance to test out this system, so I may never know how well it works. Oh well.
ArcTan 10-12-07, 03:36 AM	where is this from? It's a joke. He means that the only safe time to actually roleplay it like your "called shot" did exactly what you said it did is if your attack actually kills the creature (in which case, sure, when the creature goes down to -10 HP and dies, it's specifically because you shot it through the eye or something). Otherwise it creates all kinds of problems. wow this thread is really interesting, i remeber called shots from 2nd ed but i dont remeber people using them to offten. but without them why do we need to know regeneration can regrow or connect lost limbs, its just usless info if no one can loose a limb in the first place. Because you can roleplay stuff happening outside the adventure and the framework of the combat system. It means you can have purely *fluff* events like meeting an old crippled man and offering to restore his leg if he tells you his secret. but i guess if there is no rules for chopping of limbs the best it just go with sunder like you do with the hydra and other creatures with tenticals so you arms have 10hp and with a successful sunder i lop one off. maybe make the body parts have a hp that is dependent on the total hp of the creature so the arms are 20%(total hp) so a bigger creature get more hp for its limbs also any damage done with a sunder to a limb does not go towards the total wounds for the creature this means that players run the risk of wasting attacks. so then we need basic rules for what happens to limbless creatures i guess you lose a leg then you balance on the other leg or fall prone you lose an arm then no twf or two handed fighting you lose your head then blinded deff and cant speak Generally, people without heads are dead. I'm aware that D&D is not meant to be "perfect realism" and that it's supposed to be "heroic fantasy", but surviving decapitation with no penalty other than being blinded and deaf crosses the line.
ArcTan 10-12-07, 03:39 AM	Here's a "called shot" system I came up with in the past (but alas, never had the chance to test out). It would be classified as a "special attack." ---------- Called Shot You can make a called shot attempt as a standard action (an attack). When you make a called shot, you attempt to damage a specific part of an opponent's body, instead of damaging whatever part of the opponent's body is most vulnerable at the moment. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you are making a called shot attempt against. (If you have the Improved Called Shot feat, you do not incur an attack of opportunity for making a called shot attempt.) If the defender's attack of opportunity deals any damage, your called shot attempt fails. Step 2: Attack Roll. You make an attack roll with a -4 penalty. (If you have the Improved Called Shot feat, you do not incur a -4 penalty to the attack roll.) The defender gains a special size bonus to AC (overiding it's usual size bonus to AC), depending on the size of the appendage you are attempting to strike. Use the following table to determine what the defender's special size bonus to AC is for that appendage (for non-humanoid creatures, the DM may need to make judgement calls): Arm or Leg: One size category smaller than creature's usual size. Hand, Foot, or Head: Two size categories smaller than creature's usual size. One Eye or One Ear: Three size categories smaller than creature's usual size. Step 3: Critical Hit? If the attack missed, you have failed to cause any damage to the creature. If the attack was successful (but did not result in a critical hit), resolve damage normally (the specific damage is cosmetic-only for game purposes). If the attack was successful and resulted in a critical hit, the specific appendage of the creature's body has sustained damage. In addition to resolving damage normally, refer to pg 27 of the Dungeon Master's Guide to determine what additional penalty should be applied to the defender, depending on the specific area damaged. Note: Any creature that is not subject to critical hits suffers no penalties to having a specific part of their body damaged. The DM always has the final say on what appendages may be targeted; For example: The DM may rule you cannot target an eye with a club (without simply hitting the head), or that a helmet prevents you from targeting an ear, or that an appendage may simply be out of reach (depending on creature size and position). ---------- I was thinking about adding a variant, by which a 20-20-hit would automatically sever/crush/impale the appendage, rendering it permanently damaged (requiring use of regeneration or a similar effect to repair), and would not instantly kill the creature (unless the head was targeted). Obviously, use of this special attack would be easier with an Improved Called Shot feat, which is in essence described above. Of course, I never had a chance to test out this system, so I may never know how well it works. Oh well. It seems okay, actually. Successful called shots through this system would simply not be common enough to make a difference in battle, so Improved Called Shot is one of those less-useful feats, but it's a good bone to throw to players who really really want to have a mechanical way to do this.
1 ton ghost 10-12-07, 12:11 PM	we never really used a specific system (in 3rd ed+) for called shots, though i do remember fondly the 2nd ed ones, particularly "stapling" (arrow through arm/clothes staples your to door, etc.) w/ all the attack actions, there is a bit of a called shot system though. tripping, sunder, grappling and so forth are all good things and i encourage that initiative when cries of "i just can't hit it" go up. you always have the option of disarming a specific item that is helping it out (spell component bag, holy symbol, cloak, etc) bullrushing a cold creature into a fired area, etc. there really should be a system though for specific damage to specific areas though. someone mentioned the "hand in fireplace" scenario. that's what i'm talkin' about! i have taken a rogue's hand when reaching through a trapped area before. a Ftr's foot for stepping into a lava tube, etc. these are non-combat situations however, but they were applicable at the time. i mean, apart from most NPC encounters, Regenerate isn't used a whole Hell of alot that i know of but a reason should exist. streamline combat for new PCs, veterans tend to be like God in that they want immense diversity rather than just hack n' slash. mo' options the mo' betta'. besides, you don't have to adopt them if you don't like. called shots in combat though, eh, i wish i had an easy out for you guys. iconic moments w/ some precident: (or maybe they were just lucky [crit] hits) david bested goliath w/ a called shot to head odyseus and the cyclops (called shot to eye) and of course, sauron's fingers a' flyin' to get ring after the opening credits... but, game balance is a must so i sympathize. no easy solution. perhaps there is a way to cannibalize the 2nd ed system into 3.5.
RysanMarquise 10-12-07, 04:14 PM	In our campaigns currently called shots a perfectly legal, they just never do full damage, are harder to hit with, and have some added effect. Their purpose isn't so much to munchkin as it is to give flexability. Example: I have a bola or whip and want to hit the unsuspecting guard in the throat wrapping around it so he cannot call out for help when we attack. The DM gives +4 to the DC to hit above the normal AC (even though there is no throat armor, I still have to make sure I do not hit the armor so the attack is successful). If the attack succeeds the guard cannot breath until he gets the bola off but can otherwise act normally. This means he has 3+ Con rounds where he can act normally before having to take fort saves. Before this he can take a full turn to take it off. Other examples include hitting a fleeing enemy's leg as he runs past me (attack of opportunity) so that he can't run quite as quickly and we can catch up with him, or stabbing someone in the eye (+8 AC above all normal AC) to blind them with no additional damage. Yes you are hitting them in potentially 'important' spots, but these indivudals are also potentially taking stabs to the guy and getting by ok. If your chest isn't full of vital organs to damage then I don't see how the headshot is much different. If you treat them as interesting effects that are always worse at dealing pure damage (otherwise it would be your normal attack) then you can include called shots without breaking the game.
Cifer 10-12-07, 07:45 PM	or stabbing someone in the eye (+8 AC above all normal AC) to blind them with no additional damage. Who cares about +8 when True Strike is just one Standard Action away?
Rustmonster 10-12-07, 07:53 PM	Other examples include hitting a fleeing enemy's leg as he runs past me (attack of opportunity) so that he can't run quite as quickly and we can catch up with him How bout using a trip on an attack of opertunity? Sounds good, plus you don't even have to make up stuff*. *Unless you can't trip on an AoO. I forgot.
Cifer 10-12-07, 07:59 PM	*Unless you can't trip on an AoO. I forgot. You can.
RysanMarquise 10-12-07, 08:05 PM	To my knowledge you cannot, and trip attempts in my experience have less that 50% chance of working. Who cares about +8? First of all you are assuming quite of bit of spell useage up there if you are willing to spend two true strikes to blind someone you are fighting instead of just trying to do the damage. Secondly, the hell is a paladin (I assume) doing putting out people's eyes?
Threefists 10-12-07, 08:21 PM	Had a house-rule running for nearly seven years now, involving the Sunder attack. You can sunder a limb, but instead of cutting off the limb, you instead put a penalty on it like on page 27 of the DMG. The only way you 'sunder' the limb is if you deal 1/4 the target's Hit-Points in damage with that single attack, or if you confirm a critical to the attack. Personally I like Called Shots, but it's just too powerful. Mind you, it'd be nice for Fighters, they need all the power they can get when Wizard can snap their fingers and disintergrate the Ogre Mage with a single spell. I honestly like MnemonicSV's idea, simply because it allows a bit of extra complexity to the combat, but without further slowing the game down with dozens of more dice needing to be rolled.
Cifer 10-12-07, 08:24 PM	To my knowledge you cannot, and trip attempts in my experience have less that 50% chance of working. You can use every kind of attack for an AoO that you could use as part of a full attack, including Sunder, Disarm and Trip. A trip attempt not working mainly means you aren't really trying. The touch attack shouldn't be really difficult. After that comes an opposed STR check on which you can easily get +4 (Improved Trip), meaning that you start with about 66 percent chances to win, assuming equal Strength scores and sizes. Work your way up from there. First of all you are assuming quite of bit of spell useage up there if you are willing to spend two true strikes to blind someone you are fighting instead of just trying to do the damage. Secondly, the hell is a paladin (I assume) doing putting out people's eyes? Why assume a paladin? They don't even have the spell. As I already mentioned, a malevolent DM can simply summon the 8 kobold sorcerers (each one equipped with a light crossbow and a True Strike). A somewhat less malevolent player could go into combat with a True Strike and Quicken a second one for the next round for what is essentially a Save-Or-Die (wait, this thingy hasn't got a save... only an attack roll which should be pretty easy at +12) against any monster that relies on sight. Say Good-Bye to your BBEG. As to who might use this, well, True Strike is a staple of pretty much any gish (warrior/mage hybrid) character. Two characters working together could thus disable pretty much any enemy within two rounds.
RysanMarquise 10-12-07, 08:44 PM	I have no idea why, but I was mixing up a spell, no matter. In any event, it is my belief that if your PCs are powergaming to that extent, it would be rather trivial to defeat them by having a BBG who used a bit of magical healing. Remind them that they can't solve all of their problems by one stupid trick, if they surivived the encounter after using a good amount of time and several first circle spells on a technique that was worse than fighting normally.
ArcTan 10-12-07, 08:48 PM	there really should be a system though for specific damage to specific areas though. someone mentioned the "hand in fireplace" scenario. that's what i'm talkin' about! i have taken a rogue's hand when reaching through a trapped area before. a Ftr's foot for stepping into a lava tube, etc. these are non-combat situations however, but they were applicable at the time. The system is in DMG pg. 27. It's a good system because it treats called-shot damage as a minor setback, not this huge thing. There's no such thing as "called shot to the eye for permanent blindness" or "called shot to the heart for instant death", just the idea that damaging someone's hand imposes a penalty on attack rolls and skill checks, damaging someone's legs imposes a penalty on Dex and movement, etc. iconic moments w/ some precident: (or maybe they were just lucky [crit] hits) david bested goliath w/ a called shot to head odyseus and the cyclops (called shot to eye) and of course, sauron's fingers a' flyin' to get ring after the opening credits... Every real-life fight depends a great deal on where you actually hit the guy. D&D doesn't work like that, though, and *combining* D&D's system of abstractly determining how many HP you take off on an "attack" with a more targeted, realistic way to do "attacks" on specific body parts is what doesn't work.
ArcTan 10-12-07, 08:51 PM	I have no idea why, but I was mixing up a spell, no matter. In any event, it is my belief that if your PCs are powergaming to that extent, it would be rather trivial to defeat them by having a BBG who used a bit of magical healing. Remind them that they can't solve all of their problems by one stupid trick, if they surivived the encounter after using a good amount of time and several first circle spells on a technique that was worse than fighting normally. The BBEG is actually going to be in a much worse spot if he has to keep using regenerate and remove blindness rather than simple cure spells.
Cifer 10-12-07, 10:22 PM	In any event, it is my belief that if your PCs are powergaming to that extent, Please tell me which one of the actions I proposed was powergaming. Using True Strike to make sure an important attack hits is the whole point of the spell, making a called shot to the eye has been your idea and coordinating your tactics with your buddies is what I'd call good teamwork. As ArcTan pointed out, the BBEG would need something more potent than a simple cure spell.
RysanMarquise 10-12-07, 10:51 PM	Consistantly using True Strike in order to shoot out your enemies eyes? Not that it matters though, you are likely correct in this regard, most the games that I play in don't have BBEGs, if we get to the point where we are facing someone that strong we are probobly all dead. By the nature of our campains we usually face enemies of equal level or higher as the standard mooks and do our best to avoid them. Likely is the nature of the games in this area that makes it not as broken.
ArcTan 10-12-07, 11:42 PM	Consistantly using True Strike in order to shoot out your enemies eyes? Look, it's simple. Any sort of called shot rule that makes a called shot have a far more devastating effect on a character than simply damaging them at the "cost" of being harder to hit breaks the game, because it's way too easy to bump up your attack bonus using true strike. The only good called shot rules are the ones where the effect of called shots are relatively minor -- a called shot against an eye merely nicks you across the eyelid and makes it harder to see for a few rounds, rather than putting out your eye and blinding you or shooting through your eyesocket into your skull and insta-killing you. It's not balanced to have *any* "Hit this AC and you insta-kill the bad guy" rule. Not that it matters though, you are likely correct in this regard, most the games that I play in don't have BBEGs, if we get to the point where we are facing someone that strong we are probobly all dead. By the nature of our campains we usually face enemies of equal level or higher as the standard mooks and do our best to avoid them. Likely is the nature of the games in this area that makes it not as broken. Well, then, both parties, if they're really trying to win, will be trying to shoot out each other's eyes as quickly as possible, since this is far more effective than simply doing damage to each other. (Whichever party gains the lead in the eye-gouging contest is going to be the one that inevitably wins, because it lets them turn an early advantage into an overpowering one by making your party weaker with every hit they score. *Far* more effective than simply doing HP damage, which doesn't actually weaken anyone until they die.)
Salla 10-13-07, 12:00 AM	Look, it's simple. Any sort of called shot rule that makes a called shot have a far more devastating effect on a character than simply damaging them at the "cost" of being harder to hit breaks the game, because it's way too easy to bump up your attack bonus using true strike. The only good called shot rules are the ones where the effect of called shots are relatively minor -- a called shot against an eye merely nicks you across the eyelid and makes it harder to see for a few rounds, rather than putting out your eye and blinding you or shooting through your eyesocket into your skull and insta-killing you. It's not balanced to have *any* "Hit this AC and you insta-kill the bad guy" rule. Well, then, both parties, if they're really trying to win, will be trying to shoot out each other's eyes as quickly as possible, since this is far more effective than simply doing damage to each other. (Whichever party gains the lead in the eye-gouging contest is going to be the one that inevitably wins, because it lets them turn an early advantage into an overpowering one by making your party weaker with every hit they score. *Far* more effective than simply doing HP damage, which doesn't actually weaken anyone until they die.) You, sir, have great win.
RobbyPants 10-13-07, 10:08 AM	This reminds me of another thread, where a player was complaining how he wanted to sneak up on someone and shoot them in the back of the head with a crossbow. He was mad when the DM had him simply roll for damage. The thread went on for several pages going over things similar to these. What many posters agreed on was the problem is that the player made an attack and attempted to dictate the results before making the roll. I agree that the HP system is rather simple and abstract, but it does prevent various abuses (such as True Strike eye shooting). If you want to shoot your enemy in the head and kill him, do enough damage to drop him to -10 HP. I know it sounds rather simple to just say it like that, but take the rogue for example. If you shoot him in the back of the head, that's implying you have the drop on him (i.e. he's denied his Dex bonus to AC). That's a sneak attack. It will do more damage and be more likely to kill the opponent. I guess where I'm going with all this rambling is that there are plenty of ways already built into the game to simulate the effects of called shots without resorting to trying to disable specific body parts.
1 ton ghost 10-13-07, 12:47 PM	apart from precision (against moving, viable targets) dmg via Sneak Attack or targeting and item in their stocks for Disarm/Sunder, we haven't used called shots since 2nd Ed. yeah, you're pretty much right in that HP/dmg system is a bit simplified and so forth w/ no easy way to specifically cite their physical condition apart from, "he screams in agonizing misery when you SA w/ the ballista in the back." did it hit his spine and paralyze? things like that...but alas, no. we just have to get creative elsewhere.
ArcTan 10-13-07, 02:21 PM	This reminds me of another thread, where a player was complaining how he wanted to sneak up on someone and shoot them in the back of the head with a crossbow. He was mad when the DM had him simply roll for damage. The thread went on for several pages going over things similar to these. What many posters agreed on was the problem is that the player made an attack and attempted to dictate the results before making the roll. Well, yeah. You can say "I *try* to shoot him in the back of the head", but you can't say "I shoot him in the back of the head". I mean, what if he misses? If he misses the target *entirely*, that negates his "I shoot him in the back of the head" description, right? So if he doesn't do enough damage to kill the NPC, then that also means he "missed". He did hit the guy, but he fired a little down and to the left and got him in the shoulder blade rather than the head. Simple. I mean, I *do* let players narrate what they're *trying* to do when they attack -- they just can't be guaranteed of success. "I stab him in the heart!" "He twists aside and your blade scores a bright line across his armor" (miss) or "He falls back, rolling with your blow, and your sword slams against his breastplate and turns aside -- you hear his ribs cracking" (normal damage) or "Your aim was slightly off -- you feel your blade slide between his ribs but turn aside, leaving a nasty, bleeding flesh wound as you pull your blade back out" (crit).
Nylanfs 10-13-07, 04:56 PM	Check out "Torn Asunder" (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=27822&it=1) originally by Bastion Press (now owned by Dragon Wing Games). It has a VERY balanced system for called shots, and it also takes into account different body types. It also has rules for limb loss and replacement, and makes the Heal skill useful.