Campaign without ability enhancing items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Campaign without ability enhancing items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zepherin
05-20-06, 12:40 PM If you were to remove all ability-enhancing items (like gloves of dexterity and belts of giant strength) from a campaign, what would you do to compensate? I would probably increase the number of times your abilities increase naturally (at every fourth level), but how much should it be increased? Once every second level? Hope you can help
Bohica
05-20-06, 01:36 PM Is there a reason there are no ability enhancing items but there are still regular magic items such as a +2 Longsword?

I've have nearly removed all magic items from campaigns before, but I added in a variant Defense Bonus to compensate for the lack of magic items, specifically armor.

If you are playing in a game where there are specifically just no ability enhancing items... then maybe you can gain an ability point when you gain a feat for character level.

Bohica
ShinAkuma2
05-20-06, 04:10 PM This is kind of hard to adjudicate...On the one hand, monster CRs are meant to take a certain amount of PC equipment into account when determining difficulty...so if you can't have one of the fundamental magic items that most people assume you'd have by certain points, it might be a tad more difficult...

On the other hand, if you're giving more 'natural' ability bumps, that means PCs can spend money on other things and still have the benefits of increased ability scores without losing slots...so they'd actually be more powerful.

Overall, I'd say give an extra 3 points over the course of 20 levels...Enough to counteract the lack of ability items, but not enough to make it strictly better.

Perhaps one every three levels (as was suggested), and then maybe an extra 2 points to start with?
Vaelan
05-20-06, 06:51 PM Consider that every class has at least three important ability scores.

You want to work out a baseline that will make ability score boosts essentially equal to that which a character would normally have. By the time most characters are level 20, I'm betting they'll have at least two +6 items and around +4-6 in inherent bonuses.

As such, I would go with around 15 additional bonuses from levels, which works out to one point each level.
Majick
05-21-06, 01:50 AM Well i might consider adding a few extra statistic increases, but you have to be careful not to improve your PC's to much or they will be literal gods by the time lvl 20 comes up and nothing will be able to touch them.

What about (and this is instead of normal increases):

every 3rd level, you gain a +1 increase to a statistic of your choice e.g. 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 etc.

Also, at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th lvl, you also gain a +1 bonus to a statistic of your choice.

So in total thats, what, like 10 increases by lvl 20? Thats not so bad, double the usual, but still wouldn't be so bad even if a character put all his points into one stat! :cool:
Vaelan
05-21-06, 01:56 AM So in total thats, what, like 10 increases by lvl 20? Thats not so bad, double the usual, but still wouldn't be so bad even if a character put all his points into one stat! :cool:
Yes, it is so bad. You can get more than that from two items. The goal here is to keep it balanced with the normal system and the normal system allows a lot more. Personally, I think 20 is low given how easy it is to get Enhancement bonuses.

You do make a good point about being able to put them all into the same stat though. I would recommend putting a cap on how much you can increase a single ability score. Preferably it would be 16 so that it emulates the normal system.
terrashand
05-21-06, 02:07 AM At lvl 1 have everyone pick 3 major ability score for their character. At each lvl (4,8,12,16,and 20) instead of getting 1 ability bonus and that's it. They can choose 2 of their major abilities to receive a +1. So, you still have double normal but it is restricted so a Cleric doesn't drop +10 into WIS etc etc.

...That paragraph makes sense to me because I know what I am trying to say does everyone else get it?
Millenia
05-21-06, 02:28 AM At lvl 1 have everyone pick 3 major ability score for their character. At each lvl (4,8,12,16,and 20) instead of getting 1 ability bonus and that's it. They can choose 2 of their major abilities to receive a +1. So, you still have double normal but it is restricted so a Cleric doesn't drop +10 into WIS etc etc.

...That paragraph makes sense to me because I know what I am trying to say does everyone else get it?
It's hard to understand with the somewhat bad grammar (I have the problem at times as well), but, to translate for those who cannot understand: at character creation, a player picks the three most important ability scores for their character. At every level when the character is entitled to an ability score increase, they instead increase two of the chosen ability scores by 1.
terrashand
05-21-06, 02:31 AM Thanks for the help man. I have been up a long while today and been drinkin now for about 4 hours. My buddy's birthday and we were playing Blood Bowl.
ManTimeForgot
05-21-06, 11:25 AM The premise of the thread does beg the question of "Does "ability enhancing items" include the tomes as well?" If it does then the suggestion below doesn't come close to approximating what is possible under the normal system.

Seeing as how a 1 point ability increase is close, if not dead on, in terms of power to a feat I think something like this would be better:

1 ability point every 3 levels.
1 feat ever 2 levels.
+1 to ability score is a feat.

And then call it a day.

Something to note about the above is that it is going to let classes with much more singular emphasis in terms of ability scores (like a barbarian only wanting to improve strength) do more than what they could under the normal system and is going to be slightly worse for classes like the monk which want to increase 4 separate ability scores by 6 each.

I'll be honest about the notion of removing just the ability score items; it seems silly when you consider that singular aspects of ability scores will still be available. Get an item which raises your will save or spells per day or fort save or hit points or... and so on and so forth and you will see that leaving items which perform partial functions of ability scores while removing full ability score increases doesn't make any sense. Perhaps ability score increases in your games has lead to some situations you couldn't control. But what is stopping someone from just crafting an item with "half-functions" and doing so twice?

MTF
GalaGalaxia
05-21-06, 11:57 AM No magic = no spellcasters :)
tiercel
05-21-06, 09:00 PM Well how much you'd have to adjust things would also depend on what stat generation method you used. If you use a particularly generous stat-roll method or very high point buy, characters in your game *without* enhancement bonuses may wind up with, in the long run, very nearly the same stats as characters in a "default stats" (somewhere around 25-28 point buy) game which allows enhancement bonuses.

Basically PCs would be significantly ahead of the curve during the low and mid game, and in the late game they would be roughly equivalent. Heck, they could even really be a little behind, since at high levels you can "afford" to replace enhancement equipment with spells more easily, unless those have been eliminated too....

In a regular game, you very often don't see mass cat's grace or mass bear's endurance cast simply because most PCs invest in at least +2, if not +4, enhancement to one or both stats by time you can cast these spells. In a "no stat boosting item" game, these spells (and their 2nd level forms) would be much more widely used.

Honestly, if you don't take the spells out, you could probably just allow slightly more generous stats at character generation and the game balance wouldn't be too far off. If you prefer to start with regular stats, one could look at the schedule of enhancement bonuses granted by Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds), since by its very nature the Vow excludes stat-boosting items.
Zepherin
05-22-06, 01:32 PM So all in all, should i double, triple or quadruple the number of ability increases?
Tony Vargas
05-22-06, 03:52 PM If you were to remove all ability-enhancing items (like gloves of dexterity and belts of giant strength) from a campaign, what would you do to compensate? Easy, restore the hrs/level durration that Bull's STR, Endurance & Cat's Grace had in 3.0 - they made stat-boosting items more of a convenience than a necessity. I wouldn't worry about not having mental-stat-boosting, at all - it helps reign in casters a bit.
risner
05-23-06, 12:27 AM If you were to remove all ability-enhancing items (like gloves of dexterity and belts of giant strength) from a campaign, what would you do to compensate? I would probably increase the number of times your abilities increase naturally (at every fourth level), but how much should it be increased? Once every second level? Hope you can help

I would find a new DM.

But if forced to use that DM, I would require raising the Inherent limit from 5 to 12 at level 0 to level 20. I would also require a +ability every 3 levels instead of every 4 levels.

But that is just me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zepherin 05-20-06, 12:40 PM	If you were to remove all ability-enhancing items (like gloves of dexterity and belts of giant strength) from a campaign, what would you do to compensate? I would probably increase the number of times your abilities increase naturally (at every fourth level), but how much should it be increased? Once every second level? Hope you can help
Bohica 05-20-06, 01:36 PM	Is there a reason there are no ability enhancing items but there are still regular magic items such as a +2 Longsword? I've have nearly removed all magic items from campaigns before, but I added in a variant Defense Bonus to compensate for the lack of magic items, specifically armor. If you are playing in a game where there are specifically just no ability enhancing items... then maybe you can gain an ability point when you gain a feat for character level. Bohica
ShinAkuma2 05-20-06, 04:10 PM	This is kind of hard to adjudicate...On the one hand, monster CRs are meant to take a certain amount of PC equipment into account when determining difficulty...so if you can't have one of the fundamental magic items that most people assume you'd have by certain points, it might be a tad more difficult... On the other hand, if you're giving more 'natural' ability bumps, that means PCs can spend money on other things and still have the benefits of increased ability scores without losing slots...so they'd actually be more powerful. Overall, I'd say give an extra 3 points over the course of 20 levels...Enough to counteract the lack of ability items, but not enough to make it strictly better. Perhaps one every three levels (as was suggested), and then maybe an extra 2 points to start with?
Vaelan 05-20-06, 06:51 PM	Consider that every class has at least three important ability scores. You want to work out a baseline that will make ability score boosts essentially equal to that which a character would normally have. By the time most characters are level 20, I'm betting they'll have at least two +6 items and around +4-6 in inherent bonuses. As such, I would go with around 15 additional bonuses from levels, which works out to one point each level.
Majick 05-21-06, 01:50 AM	Well i might consider adding a few extra statistic increases, but you have to be careful not to improve your PC's to much or they will be literal gods by the time lvl 20 comes up and nothing will be able to touch them. What about (and this is instead of normal increases): every 3rd level, you gain a +1 increase to a statistic of your choice e.g. 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 etc. Also, at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th lvl, you also gain a +1 bonus to a statistic of your choice. So in total thats, what, like 10 increases by lvl 20? Thats not so bad, double the usual, but still wouldn't be so bad even if a character put all his points into one stat! :cool:
Vaelan 05-21-06, 01:56 AM	So in total thats, what, like 10 increases by lvl 20? Thats not so bad, double the usual, but still wouldn't be so bad even if a character put all his points into one stat! :cool: Yes, it is so bad. You can get more than that from two items. The goal here is to keep it balanced with the normal system and the normal system allows a lot more. Personally, I think 20 is low given how easy it is to get Enhancement bonuses. You do make a good point about being able to put them all into the same stat though. I would recommend putting a cap on how much you can increase a single ability score. Preferably it would be 16 so that it emulates the normal system.
terrashand 05-21-06, 02:07 AM	At lvl 1 have everyone pick 3 major ability score for their character. At each lvl (4,8,12,16,and 20) instead of getting 1 ability bonus and that's it. They can choose 2 of their major abilities to receive a +1. So, you still have double normal but it is restricted so a Cleric doesn't drop +10 into WIS etc etc. ...That paragraph makes sense to me because I know what I am trying to say does everyone else get it?
Millenia 05-21-06, 02:28 AM	At lvl 1 have everyone pick 3 major ability score for their character. At each lvl (4,8,12,16,and 20) instead of getting 1 ability bonus and that's it. They can choose 2 of their major abilities to receive a +1. So, you still have double normal but it is restricted so a Cleric doesn't drop +10 into WIS etc etc. ...That paragraph makes sense to me because I know what I am trying to say does everyone else get it? It's hard to understand with the somewhat bad grammar (I have the problem at times as well), but, to translate for those who cannot understand: at character creation, a player picks the three most important ability scores for their character. At every level when the character is entitled to an ability score increase, they instead increase two of the chosen ability scores by 1.
terrashand 05-21-06, 02:31 AM	Thanks for the help man. I have been up a long while today and been drinkin now for about 4 hours. My buddy's birthday and we were playing Blood Bowl.
ManTimeForgot 05-21-06, 11:25 AM	The premise of the thread does beg the question of "Does "ability enhancing items" include the tomes as well?" If it does then the suggestion below doesn't come close to approximating what is possible under the normal system. Seeing as how a 1 point ability increase is close, if not dead on, in terms of power to a feat I think something like this would be better: 1 ability point every 3 levels. 1 feat ever 2 levels. +1 to ability score is a feat. And then call it a day. Something to note about the above is that it is going to let classes with much more singular emphasis in terms of ability scores (like a barbarian only wanting to improve strength) do more than what they could under the normal system and is going to be slightly worse for classes like the monk which want to increase 4 separate ability scores by 6 each. I'll be honest about the notion of removing just the ability score items; it seems silly when you consider that singular aspects of ability scores will still be available. Get an item which raises your will save or spells per day or fort save or hit points or... and so on and so forth and you will see that leaving items which perform partial functions of ability scores while removing full ability score increases doesn't make any sense. Perhaps ability score increases in your games has lead to some situations you couldn't control. But what is stopping someone from just crafting an item with "half-functions" and doing so twice? MTF
GalaGalaxia 05-21-06, 11:57 AM	No magic = no spellcasters :)
tiercel 05-21-06, 09:00 PM	Well how much you'd have to adjust things would also depend on what stat generation method you used. If you use a particularly generous stat-roll method or very high point buy, characters in your game without enhancement bonuses may wind up with, in the long run, very nearly the same stats as characters in a "default stats" (somewhere around 25-28 point buy) game which allows enhancement bonuses. Basically PCs would be significantly ahead of the curve during the low and mid game, and in the late game they would be roughly equivalent. Heck, they could even really be a little behind, since at high levels you can "afford" to replace enhancement equipment with spells more easily, unless those have been eliminated too.... In a regular game, you very often don't see mass cat's grace or mass bear's endurance cast simply because most PCs invest in at least +2, if not +4, enhancement to one or both stats by time you can cast these spells. In a "no stat boosting item" game, these spells (and their 2nd level forms) would be much more widely used. Honestly, if you don't take the spells out, you could probably just allow slightly more generous stats at character generation and the game balance wouldn't be too far off. If you prefer to start with regular stats, one could look at the schedule of enhancement bonuses granted by Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds), since by its very nature the Vow excludes stat-boosting items.
Zepherin 05-22-06, 01:32 PM	So all in all, should i double, triple or quadruple the number of ability increases?
Tony Vargas 05-22-06, 03:52 PM	If you were to remove all ability-enhancing items (like gloves of dexterity and belts of giant strength) from a campaign, what would you do to compensate? Easy, restore the hrs/level durration that Bull's STR, Endurance & Cat's Grace had in 3.0 - they made stat-boosting items more of a convenience than a necessity. I wouldn't worry about not having mental-stat-boosting, at all - it helps reign in casters a bit.
risner 05-23-06, 12:27 AM	If you were to remove all ability-enhancing items (like gloves of dexterity and belts of giant strength) from a campaign, what would you do to compensate? I would probably increase the number of times your abilities increase naturally (at every fourth level), but how much should it be increased? Once every second level? Hope you can help I would find a new DM. But if forced to use that DM, I would require raising the Inherent limit from 5 to 12 at level 0 to level 20. I would also require a +ability every 3 levels instead of every 4 levels. But that is just me.