Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarknessEternal 08-09-05, 12:44 PM	We always assumed no because a bow isn't a slashing or piercing weapon: the arrows are. So if you wanted keen arrow attacks, you'd need magic ammunition. Is that correct?
Illion the Red 08-09-05, 12:49 PM	Yes.
Harliquinn 08-09-05, 12:51 PM	By the RAW, no you cannot have a Keen bow or crossbow.
tarkin 08-09-05, 02:03 PM	The core rules only allow you to use weapon enchantments on the appropriate chart. Some people ignore this rule. The major problem with that is that some (if not most) of the melee weapon only stuff is abusive if done on a ranged weapon. The most blatant are arrows of Spell Storing. For 8,300 gp you basically get 50 potions of up to 3rd level (ok, so you have to charge them up). That works out to 166 gp magic item containing any spell of upto 3rd level that can be targetted, AND you can use several of them in a single Full Round attack or Many shot. Compare with a potion of 3rd level: 750 gp and you can only use one per round, with a similar restriction on targetting. Obviously 50 arrows of Spell Storing is abusive. The only part of the core books that says no Spell storing is the chart that lists the ranged weapon enchantments. Therefore if you ignore that chart, you get abusive rules. Note, there are others that are also abusive, but the spell storing is the most blatant, munchkin abuse in the weapon to ammo rules.
Crox 08-09-05, 02:46 PM	Bow, of course, cannot be keen, but arrow can be treated as piercing light melee improvised weapon, that permits it to have a keen enchantment on it, but you must enchant single arrow as a single melee weapon, not 50 at once. So it will cost for you 8300 gp 5 cp per arrow.
Harliquinn 08-09-05, 03:01 PM	While it's not possible within the rules, I personally don't see anything unbalanced or unfair about letting a bow be enchanted with Keen that imparts that attribute onto the arrows or bolts it fires.
Vestigial_Thumb 08-09-05, 03:01 PM	But bows and crossbows bestow their enchantment on the ammunition. So a I can't make a keen shortbow, or can I but it just wouldn't be keen if I decided to bash someone's head in with it? This is a little bit over the top... :confused:
Navar 08-09-05, 04:06 PM	While it's not possible within the rules, I personally don't see anything unbalanced or unfair about letting a bow be enchanted with Keen that imparts that attribute onto the arrows or bolts it fires. I agree. I don't see a problem with letting a bow impart keen. It doesn't say you can't like Brilliant Energy does.
mvincent 08-09-05, 05:44 PM	The core rules only allow you to use weapon enchantments on the appropriate chart.Could you indicate where that is stated? I do not believe those random generation charts necessarily indicate all possible combinations, as there are indeed allowable combinations that are not on those charts. Examples include: very high str composite bows (long and short), any new weapons, unusually sized weapons, most spell/wand combinations, etc. Most weapon enchantments indicate in their text if they cannot be used with a specfic weapon type.
Galdor_Ester 08-09-05, 05:49 PM	I would disagee with those that say Keen cannot be added to a bow or crossbow. On page 223 of the DMG (3.5) there is a note to the keen ability that says reroll if it would be applied to a bludgeoning weapon. Page 221 states that Ammunition fired from a magical weapon is treated as a magic weapon. therefore a keen longbow would impart the keen ability on its ammunition but could not be used as a keen weapon itself.
mvincent 08-09-05, 05:59 PM	a keen longbow would impart the keen ability on its ammunition but could not be used as a keen weapon itself.Enchantments that can do this typically say so in their text with something like: "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the XXX upon their ammunition" The keen ability is one of the few abilities that does not contain this text. It's sorta a "exception that proves the rule" type of thing.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-09-05, 07:37 PM	I'm not so keen on ammo. {get it?} Technically, the tables are there for item generation. They don't really constitute the rule; the description does. And the description of keen says it has to be a slashing or piercing weapon. It didn't say it had to be a melee weapon. I'd be hesitant to let someone get a keen bow, but there's no reason you couldn't shell out for keen arrows. Just put 'em on the shopping list next to cold iron arrows, silvered arrows, mithral arrows, and novelty boxing glove arrows.
High Octane 08-09-05, 08:50 PM	Frankly Im surprised they did not add keen to the list of ranged weapon abilities. Its definitely not unbalancing to have it put it on the ammunition.
Rohano 08-09-05, 08:58 PM	I'm almost positive that the DMG says that ranged weapons with ammunition bestow their enhancements onto ammunition fired (like keen).
Graven 08-09-05, 09:38 PM	The phb equipment table states that bows do piercing damage, while having a dash for the arrows. Consulting the description for arrows it says that they do damage the same as daggers when used in melee, making them slashing/piercing. The table 7-15 in the DMG (ranged weapon special abilities) does not give Keen as an ability. The table 7-14 (DMG melee weapon special abilities) states that keen is for piercing or slashing weapons only. In the description of the ranged effects it states that bows crossbows, and slings bestow the effect upon its ammunition. Under keen it does not give that stipulation. Therefore I would rule that bows cannot be keened, that you would have to keen the arrows. Personally I'd tell the PC just to take improved crit for the bow and not worry about it since keen and improved crit don't stack anymore. Basically following the letter of the rule, I don't think bows can be keened, and that makes logical sense. You can't make a bow that would cause arrows that were fired by it to be extra sharp (the meaning of keen). The arrows could be keened, but that would be expensive since they would need to be +1 keened arrows, effectively a +2 bonus. Looking at table 7-9 in the dmg (weapons) it states that the base price is for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets, therefore you could keen 50 arrows at once for the price of 8000 gp. I think that pretty much covers everything
Tyler Do'Urden 08-09-05, 09:51 PM	Frankly Im surprised they did not add keen to the list of ranged weapon abilities. Its definitely not unbalancing to have it put it on the ammunition. You know what it is? If you roll an inappropriate ability (vorpal warhammer) you have to reroll. If you put keen on the ranged table with the intent that you sometimes generate keen arrows, chances are you'll roll keen bows a lot, and that's annoying. They don't wanna annoy people. They're trying to make money.
Tuah Shinguru 08-09-05, 10:46 PM	I would figure out the price of keen arrows, and increace the price of upkeep, and use the Keen Arrows normally.
mvincent 08-10-05, 12:22 AM	You know what it is? If you roll an inappropriate ability (vorpal warhammer) you have to reroll. If you put keen on the ranged table with the intent that you sometimes generate keen arrows, chances are you'll roll keen bows a lot, and that's annoying. They don't wanna annoy people.Well put*. I concur: it does seem like the writer's were attempting to make the table easy to use by weeding out the options that could've only applied to ammo. btw: kudos on your alias * Insert obligatory pun about a "keen observation"
Vaelan 08-10-05, 02:19 AM	Obviously 50 arrows of Spell Storing is abusive. The only part of the core books that says no Spell storing is the chart that lists the ranged weapon enchantments. Therefore if you ignore that chart, you get abusive rules. No, if you ignore that chart, you get an abusive rule. A Keen bow, on the other hand, is not abusive. Could we stay on the topic at hand?
Harliquinn 08-10-05, 08:42 AM	Well put*. I concur: it does seem like the writer's were attempting to make the table easy to use by weeding out the options that could've only applied to ammo. btw: kudos on your alias * Insert obligatory pun about a "keen observation" This is certainly not the case. Each table (barring typos or errata) lists what is allowed for that type. They break up armor and shield enhancements as well in a similar fashion. The list given for Melee weapons is the exhaustive list of melee weapon enhancements; likewise, the list given for Ranged weapons is the exhaustive list of ranged weapon enhancements. In the text, when an ability applies to a bow or crossbow's ammunition, it clearly and explicitly states it in within the text everytime. In fact, Brilliant Energy is written to explicitly only apply to ammunition (You can't put it on the bow), and is still included in the ranged chart. Therefore, keen wasn't left off because of space constraints or not wanting to have keen arrows be generated randomly a lot (If that were the case, they would merely assign it a low range of values). Keen, by the rules, is not meant for ranged weapons (or ammunition). However, as stated by most here, there isn't any game balance reason for excluding it and it could easily be allowed as a house rule without fear. Harliquinn
Algorithm_X 08-10-05, 10:13 AM	never mind
kam_Islash 08-10-05, 11:29 AM	Archers were already given the shaft. Why take away keen from them?
mvincent 08-10-05, 11:54 AM	the list given for Ranged weapons is the exhaustive list of ranged weapon enhancements. While I do not deny the possibility of that being the writer's intent, that is not explicitly stated, and (as demonstrated earlier), all the random generation charts are not exhaustive. That allows room for interpretation. If WotC had actually labelled those tables in the manner you are interpreting them, then this discussion would not be taking place. Brilliant Energy is written to explicitly only apply to ammunition (You can't put it on the bow), and is still included in the ranged chart.Excellent counter-point Keen, by the rules, is not meant for ranged weapons (or ammunition).As mentioned earlier, the rules don't actually say this. This is based on your interpretation and opinion. The rules are full of these sorts of things, and we debate them constantly... I try to respect other people's interpretations, but I give them more credit if they are able to notice when they are just that: interpretations.
Yak of Darkness 08-10-05, 11:55 AM	Since keen and the feat Improved Critical both do the same thing and don't stack (in 3.5), and since nobody's shouting to the rails that Improved Crit (longbow) is overpowered (while Improved Crit (longsword) is just fine), it seems we have proof in the rules that using keen, while not RAW, would also not be unbalancing.
Algorithm_X 08-10-05, 12:00 PM	-sarcasm- Because after just multiclassing in one level of sorcerer an archer can reach out to a potential of 3300ft blindfolded (with far shot feat, composite longbow and True strike) and effectively have the range modifiers negated by the insight bonus three times a day is pathetically weak. Yeah that is really underpowered, especially at considering at closer range he actually gets bonuses on top of his standard to hit. Especially elven archers, very weak... -sarcasm- But serious, simply being able to inflict damage before the opponent could inflict damage back is a very potent ability in both real life conflicts and within the mechanics of every game system I have ever played (including D&D 3.5). I dislike whining about how weak something is when it isn't weak. It is either a manipulative ploy to get what they want, or a lack of imagination/effort, niether of which I admire to any degree. However I must agree while not RAW it wouldn't turn the world upside down or out of wack if the keen was added to ranged weapons list with the appropriate modifications to the text, in homebrewed-errata.
mvincent 08-10-05, 12:29 PM	while not RAW, would also not be unbalancing.The debate isn't really over it's balance, but over RAW (of course both issues, like most debates, are of small consequence anyway, and unlikely to change anyones lives).
TheAngryRogue 08-10-05, 01:16 PM	I don't see what the problem is. The bow itself has a crit range,and it's considerer a piercing weapon. Keen doesn't unbalance the in any way. I''ve always allowed my players to put keen on a bow.
mvincent 08-10-05, 01:30 PM	I don't see what the problem is. The bow itself has a crit range,and it's considerer a piercing weapon. Keen doesn't unbalance the in any way. I''ve always allowed my players to put keen on a bow.While not unbalancing, the fact that the keen description doesn't say it bestows this ability on it's ammunition (like it does in other enhancements) makes this a less supported RAW interpretation.
Harliquinn 08-10-05, 02:11 PM	As mentioned earlier, the rules don't actually say this. This is based on your interpretation and opinion. The rules are full of these sorts of things, and we debate them constantly... I try to respect other people's interpretations, but I give them more credit if they are able to notice when they are just that: interpretations. Just to be clear, it is not my interpretation or opinion, it is a direct relaying of the rules as presented in the DMG/SRD. There are cases for which an interpretation is indeed what is being discussed (The monk's unarmed strike and Improved Natural Attack is one such discussion). However, in this case, it is quite clear. The RAW in the table and in the text are consistent and clear. The Tables are clearly labeled as to what they represent. They are combined when needed to make a point and separated when the separation is important. Table heading for Magical Enhancement Bonuses (Applies to all weapons) Table: Weapons Table headings for Common/Uncommon Weapon Types (Tables are separated into melee and ranged) Table: Common Melee Weapons Table: Common Ranged Weapons * We don't consider things on the Common Ranged Weapon table a melee weapon just because it doesn't explicitly exclude it on the Common Melee Weapon table. Table headings for Magical enchantments by Weapon Type (Tables are separated into melee and ranged) Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities The tables go up to 100%. There is a percent range for each of the special abilities and a 100 for "Roll again Twice". There isn't even a "DM Choice" option. The tables are clearly meant to represent all of the abilities available in the DMG for melee and ranged weapons. Because the tables are split into 2 distinct tables (one for melee and one for ranged) and any enchantment allowable on both is specifically listed in both tables, there is no reason to assume or interpret that to mean that if an ability isn't listed under ranged that it is still allowed by the rules. The text for each ability is clear and consistent with the table. Those abilities that are for ranged weapons state clearly Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the [insert power here] upon their ammunition. A good example of this is Vorpal. It is not listed under the ranged category. The description doesn't say melee only, but it does specify slashing only. One would obviously not allow Vorpoal on a bow that could fire arrows that did slashing damage. Brilliant Energy is a another good example (as noted) of an ammunition only enchantment and it clearly states: This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. Many weapon enchantments which are melee weapon only do not specify so in the description, because it is made clear by the title of the table which enchantments are for melee weapons and which are for ranged. (see Disruption or Ghost Touch). Some do specify, though there is no need to do so explicitly. The ability for Keen says Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. It does not say "All piercing or slashing weapons may be made keen". There is a big difference. I don't understand why this is considered just "my opinion" or "interpretation" when the rules are clearly spelled out in tabular and textual form within the rules. If there is an exception to these that would somehow allow Keen to be a melee weapon enchantment (by the RAW), please point it out. *Note: As stated before, I see no reason why Keen should not be allowed to be put on a ranged weapon, but that is a house rule. Harliquinn
mvincent 08-10-05, 02:58 PM	The Tables are clearly labeled as to what they represent.They do not say they are exhaustive, and other tables of that type (as has been noted) are not exhaustive. We already know that you can make weapons that can't be rolled up on those tables. The only actual description I've seen in regard to this debate is at the beginning of the "Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions" section, and it says "In addition to enhancement bonuses, weapons can have one or more of the special abilities detailed below." Evidently, there can be ranged, keen weapons because many keen weapons can be thrown. Your interpretation seems like it would prevent throwing axes from being keen, or daggers from being returning.
Enterik 08-10-05, 04:19 PM	We always assumed no because a bow isn't a slashing or piercing weapon: the arrows are. So if you wanted keen arrow attacks, you'd need magic ammunition. Is that correct? If you tie it right, any bow can look keen, I'd even go so far as to give a +1 regalia bonus to diplomacy checks when wearing a keen bow. Seriously, You could make a keen bow, and if you roll a natural 1 you cut your fingers on it. Wouldn' that be, well...keen?! Okay, not so seriously...
He Who Lurks 08-10-05, 05:30 PM	I would allow a keen bow, but it would only apply if the bow was used as a melee weapon (Note: Don't do this except when desperate). The bow would NOT apply the keen property to its ammunition. I would also allow keen ammunition. Those tables be damned. I never thought of them as more than random treasure generation anyway.
thedmstrikes 08-10-05, 07:33 PM	The DMG is rather clear on this entire matter. Each speacial ability has its own description. ;) That description clearly states any limitations, such as slaching weapons only, or bows and slings may bestow this property to their ammunition when fired. In this case, it gives the limitation of piercing and slashing weapons only. A bow, while in itself is not an actual weapon, it is a tool or a part of a weapon that can only be used effectively when combined with its other parts. If it were to be used alone, it would not qualify for the piercing or slashing limitation and since the bestows its ammunition limitation has not been given, it cannot be combined with the keen ability. Arrows, on the other hand, do qualify as they are piercing weapons, even on their own. :cool: :confused: The use of the random generation tables is mitigated by a phrase in the keen description that says to reroll the ability result if it is not a compatable result. Skip Williams (The Sage) would be a great person to send this question to since it has a broader meaning than just one small rules check... :rolleyes:
Cathon 08-10-05, 08:28 PM	Actually, Andy Collins does the Sage Advice these days.
thedmstrikes 08-10-05, 09:54 PM	That just goes to show what a year in the desert away from humanity will do to you.... :weep:
peanut35 08-11-05, 03:38 PM	So, i was looking through the Epic weapons, and it turns out that a Bow can bestow Keen. Check out Elven Great Bow under Epic Magic Armor and Weapons, from the SRD.
xver 08-11-05, 05:19 PM	The blasted tables argument be damned. It's bloody rubbish. Longswords can be keen. Arrows can be keen. (Actually, as arrows have no crit range, perhap they can't be keen. But it's debateable.) Bows can be keen, belive it or not. The keen ability doesn't bestow keen to the arrows. Perhaps, this is because if it did, you could theotretically fire fifty normal arrows with a keen bow at a target you can't hit and find twenty-five keen arrows nearby aftewards. Now that's abusive. (Not that I'd allow any such thing, even if keen said that.) The sharpness thing in keen is flavor. The magic weapon rules say piercing or slashing only and that the result is an increased crit range. The equipment rules say bows do peircing damage. And they crit on a 20, doing x3 damage. The end result is a bow that does 1d8 19-20/x3 piercing (1d6 small). That's all you need to know. And, on a mostly unrelated front, they never appear in a "by the books" random treasure hoard. And if you hit someone with your keen bow in melee, you get no keen, because it does bludgeoning damage. Cheers.
Yak of Darkness 08-11-05, 05:59 PM	The keen ability doesn't bestow keen to the arrows. Perhaps, this is because if it did, you could theotretically fire fifty normal arrows with a keen bow at a target you can't hit and find twenty-five keen arrows nearby aftewards. Now that's abusive.When a bow special ability bestows its powers on arrows fired, the arrows are not permanently enchanted afterwards. It doesn't work like that for flaming, shocking, or frost bows, why would you assume it worked that way for a hypothetical keen bow?
kam_Islash 08-11-05, 08:33 PM	Yeah, let archers have the dignity of the keen ability! they already are denied the right to threatening squares and making AOO.
xver 08-11-05, 09:28 PM	It doesn't work like that for flaming, shocking, or frost bows, why would you assume it worked that way for a hypothetical keen bow? Good point. Anyway, the weapon has the crit range expanded, not the ammo. No need to bestow at all.
mvincent 08-12-05, 12:34 PM	the weapon has the crit range expanded, not the ammo. No need to bestow at all.That's actually a good point, and the description in the SRD for keen doesn't contradict that. However, just the name "Keen" implies that the striking surface has been (magically) sharpened. While it's possible that the ability's title is misleading, the description of the Elven Greatbow seems to correspond to it.