Can a composite longbow have its Str bonus upgraded [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a composite longbow have its Str bonus upgraded [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dunamin
10-26-06, 03:09 PM Pretty much like the title says. For instance, can a composite longbow employing a +3 Str bonus be upgraded to a +4 Str bonus?
Dalthbar
10-26-06, 03:21 PM There's no rules for this that I've ever seen. I'd likely say no, that the strength bonus is a function of the materials used, the curve given to the bow and the construction process itself - not just something you can "tweak" and change.
Artector
10-26-06, 03:27 PM I'd say "no" too.
Dunamin
10-26-06, 08:45 PM Thanks for your advice.

The player whom this question relates to, really wants to employ an upgradeable bow, through additional magical enhancements as well as upgraded Str benefit. I've been suggested that the Wood Shape spell and a high Craft (Bowmaking) skill modifier might be a way to do this, so I've promised to consider it thoroughly.

If you were to houserule to allow this, what would you set the price at?
I was thinking that I should use the price of having Wood Shape cast, plus the prices of hiring a bowmaker specialist from DMG 2 (p155-157). The former price component would be 60 gp I suppose, but what about the latter?
primemover003
10-26-06, 08:46 PM Well you could charge the cost of the spell in addition to the regular difference... just to KISS.
StruckingFuggle
10-26-06, 08:49 PM There's no rules for this that I've ever seen. I'd likely say no, that the strength bonus is a function of the materials used, the curve given to the bow and the construction process itself - not just something you can "tweak" and change.

In the real world, yes ... but in the d&d'verse? Why not? There's warp wood, polymorph any object, fabricate, and that's just the first three ways I can think of offhand to have magic maybe do the necessary work.
jaelis
10-26-06, 10:58 PM Using wood shape is a good idea. I'd charge 60 gp for the spell, plus the normal difference in price based on the type of bow. (As per primemover)

That seems pretty fair. Being able to change the Str bonus on the fly would be a pretty powerful ability, probably a +1 enhancement. But I think it's fair to be able to upgrade it "offline" for a reasonable price.
bruiserdeck
10-26-06, 11:13 PM I have had this same issue in a game.

I have a composit +1 str +1 bow that i have made weapon familiar.

my DM said that using my bowcrafting skill i can modify my bow to raise the str bonus of the bow. to do so requires that I use my craft skill as if crafting an original +2str MW bow. (or in the case of +3 its the skill of crafting an original +3 str MW bow) and it advanses as such as much as i want to upgrade.

he does this for 2 main reasons.

1. you can always upgrade and modify a sword or armor or crossbow.. so why not a bow?

2. a composit is made of many laminated pieces of wood, bown or metal curved and recurved into the correct shape. so the craft check assumes that i simply dissasemble, modify, and reassemble the bow. since the majority of the new bow is from the origginal bow. it retains all properties and simply gainst str bonus
Dunamin
10-27-06, 08:07 AM Well you could charge the cost of the spell in addition to the regular difference... just to KISS.
Using wood shape is a good idea. I'd charge 60 gp for the spell, plus the normal difference in price based on the type of bow. (As per primemover)
Yes, those components of the price would be 60 gp for the spell and 100 gp for the price difference in market value. What I’m mostly having trouble figuring out is what I should charge for having someone with a high enough skill modifier to work in conjunction with the spellcasting.
The DC to craft a comp. bow [Str +4] is 23. By taking 10, a skill modifier of +13 is thus required to automatically succeed. According to DMG 2 p 155, this can be accomplished by a level 1 specialist.

So, by the crafting rules progress per week on taking 10 would be 23 (check result) x 23 (DC) = 529 sp worth of value. If the value is merely the price difference of 100 gp (rather than charging for building a comp. bow [+4 Str] from scratch), that would normally be 2 weeks of work for the expert. DMG 2 p 156 lists his daily rate to be skill modifier divided by 5, rounded down. That’s 13/5 = 2,6 -> 2 gp/day, or 14 days x 2 gp/day = 28 gp in total. Even though Wood Shape is an instantaneous spell, I suppose we could say a “special casting” of it leaves the bow just workable for the specialist for a prolonged period. Or perhaps just rule that the process is instantaneous, but the effort in directing the shaping of the bow by the specialist is still charged as if he’s made 2 weeks of work?

I suppose they ought to be the same person? A druid 3 / specialist 1 who specialized in Craft (bowmaking)?

There's warp wood, polymorph any object, fabricate, and that's just the first three ways I can think of offhand to have magic maybe do the necessary work.
Well, warp wood “cause wood to bend and warp, permanently destroying its straightness, form, and strength.” So that’s not it. Fabricate is level 5 and polymorph any object level 8 and neither can effect magical items (the bow is also magical).
So wood shape (level 2) seems to me to be the best way to go. Being magical, the bow would receive a save, but I assume the person attending the magical object can voluntarily fail the save, just as he can voluntarily fail his own.

you can always upgrade and modify a sword or armor or crossbow.. so why not a bow?
Could you elaborate? Are you referring to additional magical enhancements? Because this is not the issue at hand.

a crossbow is made of many laminated pieces of wood, bown or metal curved and recurved into the correct shape. so the craft check assumes that i simply dissasemble, modify, and reassemble the bow. since the majority of the new bow is from the origginal bow. it retains all properties and simply gainst str bonus
I’m no bowmaker expert, but it doesn’t seem to me to be as simple as that. I would think a more powerful bow generally would require at least a bigger piece of material for the main component, not simply “attaching” additional material on top.
However, I’m only considering how to fairly price this with magical aid, not whether it’s possible to do so without (by which I agree with Dalthbar).

So, I arrive at 60 gp for the spell + 100 gp for extra market value + 28 gp for the bowmaking expertise = 188 gp.
If later the player wants to further upgrade from Str +4 to Str +5, this would require a skill modifier of +15, to match DC 25 on take 10, which requires a level 2 specialist. Progress is now 25 x 25 = 625 sp per week or 625 cp per day. It would take 13 days work, costing 15 / 5 = 3 gp per day, or 39 gp in total. Final price would be 60 for the spell + 100 for extra market value + 39 for bowmaking expertise = 199 gp.

What do you guys think?
Sunrider
10-27-06, 08:08 AM Dispel Magic to make the bow temporarily nonmagical. Fabricate to shape the non-magical bow material into a new bow (requires appropriate Craft check). When the Dispel wears off, you now have a new, stronger bow.
jaelis
10-27-06, 08:20 AM Yes, those components of the price would be 60 gp for the spell and 100 gp for the price difference in market value. What I’m mostly having trouble figuring out is what I should charge for having someone with a high enough skill modifier to work in conjunction with the spellcasting....

This issue should be subsumed in the market price of the upgrade. If you want a masterwork sword, you don't have to seek out and specifcally pay a high-level weapon smith to make it... it is assumed that the price of the sword takes care of that. I'd use the same logic here. The price increase is enough to pay someone to make it in the first place, it should be enough to pay someone to do the upgrade.

What do you guys think?
I think you're thinking about it too much. If you want to allow upgrading a bow, this is a fair way to do it. If you don't want to, just don't... nothing in the rules says you can. Don't sweat the details.
Damned slayer
10-27-06, 09:18 AM I’m no bowmaker expert, but it doesn’t seem to me to be as simple as that. I would think a more powerful bow generally would require at least a bigger piece of material for the main component, not simply “attaching” additional material on top.
What do you guys think?

actually just by changing the what is it called rope?? or cord w/e
just by changing it you can alter the strenght of your bow (real life)
Steevo
10-27-06, 10:41 AM 1. you can always upgrade and modify a sword or armor or crossbow.. so why not a bow?

Upgrade and modify a sword, armor or crossbow how? Swords add your Str bonus because you apply the muscle to the blow, it has nothing to do with the weapon itself. Composite crossbows don't exist (that I'm aware of) and armor has nothing to be upgraded, aside from possibly resizing a suit of platemail, but that's another thread.

If you're talking about upgrading a sword to a masterwork sword, you're flat out wrong. Masterwork equipment must be forged as masterwork in the first place. Masterworking is integral to the entire weapon, not just specific components, so disassembling and reassembling will not change this aspect of a weapon. Unless, of course, you reassemble with all new components, in which case I am stupefied as to why you disassembled your old weapon in the first place.

If you're talking about adding magical enhancements to a masterwork weapon/armor, you're right, but that also has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Composite bows do not add Str to damage because of any kind of magical property.
DarkFern
10-27-06, 10:56 AM I'd have to say you can do it. You can totaly re-enforce the a bow with inlays or through magical means by toughening the wood. That said, it would be much easier (and cheaper) just making a new bow with a higher strength bonus.

:evillaugh
Tyler Do'Urden
10-27-06, 01:34 PM You can't make a nonmasterwork weapon masterwork. You can't make a noncomposite bow composite. You can't make a +1 Str bow a +2 Str bow. Not with a simple mundane Craft skill at least.

However, you could do all of the above with a fabricate spell and a sufficient Craft check, and probably some nebulous extra materials to make up the value difference.
Watchman
10-27-06, 05:36 PM Composite bows are better than all-wood self ones because they're made of more than wood. Sinew and horn, specifically.
Glued together.
With an absurd number of different glues all with their particular characteristics.
And apparently took around a year to dry properly, and the thing was kept "bent reverse" all the time.

I figure suitable magic - probably requiring a purpose-designed spell, but then what else do non-adventuring mages do except figure out ways to make a profit with their spellz ? - could do the job, but otherwise fuhgeddabouddit.
Dunamin
10-28-06, 05:25 AM Yes, those components of the price would be 60 gp for the spell and 100 gp for the price difference in market value. What I’m mostly having trouble figuring out is what I should charge for having someone with a high enough skill modifier to work in conjunction with the spellcasting....
This issue should be subsumed in the market price of the upgrade. If you want a masterwork sword, you don't have to seek out and specifcally pay a high-level weapon smith to make it... it is assumed that the price of the sword takes care of that. I'd use the same logic here. The price increase is enough to pay someone to make it in the first place, it should be enough to pay someone to do the upgrade.
You may be right, 160 gp just seems a bit low for what I had in mind...
Mahali Audran
10-30-06, 01:31 PM I'm a fan of the Dispell Magic, Woodshape method. problem is finding someone with a craft skill high enough that can cast the Woodshape.

Alternatively someone with a high craft skill and the time to do it. As mentioned compound bows are just bows made out of different layers, commonly with different materials as well. Recurves as someone said "bent reverse" is a bow design that be used with single wood or compound designs.

By adding another layer to the bow, possibly shaving it first so its not greatly increasing thickness, you could increase the Str bonus. I think this would require more skill than making one from scratch although it'd be a lot faster. Another 50% cost? A couple hundred gold seems appropriate when not using spells.
Zaistars69
10-30-06, 01:41 PM Composite longbows are made up of more than just wood. you would have to find a satisfatorly magical way to upgrade this or just suck it up and have a lower bow. Here is a good website that describes how you make a comp bow.
http://www.primitiveways.com/pt-composite_bow.html
Remember, they aren't the compound bows of today, very different.
Dunamin
11-06-06, 12:02 PM I'm a fan of the Dispell Magic, Woodshape method.
Hmm, I don't think Dispel Magic is a particular concern, since Wood Shape works on magic gear as well. Also, isn't this the case?:
I assume the person attending the magical object can voluntarily fail the save, just as he can voluntarily fail his own.
Mahali Audran
11-06-06, 03:08 PM Hmm, I don't think Dispel Magic is a particular concern, since Wood Shape works on magic gear as well. Also, isn't this the case?:
From previous suggestions I was thinking Wood Shape's target had to be nonmagical.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dunamin 10-26-06, 03:09 PM	Pretty much like the title says. For instance, can a composite longbow employing a +3 Str bonus be upgraded to a +4 Str bonus?
Dalthbar 10-26-06, 03:21 PM	There's no rules for this that I've ever seen. I'd likely say no, that the strength bonus is a function of the materials used, the curve given to the bow and the construction process itself - not just something you can "tweak" and change.
Artector 10-26-06, 03:27 PM	I'd say "no" too.
Dunamin 10-26-06, 08:45 PM	Thanks for your advice. The player whom this question relates to, really wants to employ an upgradeable bow, through additional magical enhancements as well as upgraded Str benefit. I've been suggested that the Wood Shape spell and a high Craft (Bowmaking) skill modifier might be a way to do this, so I've promised to consider it thoroughly. If you were to houserule to allow this, what would you set the price at? I was thinking that I should use the price of having Wood Shape cast, plus the prices of hiring a bowmaker specialist from DMG 2 (p155-157). The former price component would be 60 gp I suppose, but what about the latter?
primemover003 10-26-06, 08:46 PM	Well you could charge the cost of the spell in addition to the regular difference... just to KISS.
StruckingFuggle 10-26-06, 08:49 PM	There's no rules for this that I've ever seen. I'd likely say no, that the strength bonus is a function of the materials used, the curve given to the bow and the construction process itself - not just something you can "tweak" and change. In the real world, yes ... but in the d&d'verse? Why not? There's warp wood, polymorph any object, fabricate, and that's just the first three ways I can think of offhand to have magic maybe do the necessary work.
jaelis 10-26-06, 10:58 PM	Using wood shape is a good idea. I'd charge 60 gp for the spell, plus the normal difference in price based on the type of bow. (As per primemover) That seems pretty fair. Being able to change the Str bonus on the fly would be a pretty powerful ability, probably a +1 enhancement. But I think it's fair to be able to upgrade it "offline" for a reasonable price.
bruiserdeck 10-26-06, 11:13 PM	I have had this same issue in a game. I have a composit +1 str +1 bow that i have made weapon familiar. my DM said that using my bowcrafting skill i can modify my bow to raise the str bonus of the bow. to do so requires that I use my craft skill as if crafting an original +2str MW bow. (or in the case of +3 its the skill of crafting an original +3 str MW bow) and it advanses as such as much as i want to upgrade. he does this for 2 main reasons. 1. you can always upgrade and modify a sword or armor or crossbow.. so why not a bow? 2. a composit is made of many laminated pieces of wood, bown or metal curved and recurved into the correct shape. so the craft check assumes that i simply dissasemble, modify, and reassemble the bow. since the majority of the new bow is from the origginal bow. it retains all properties and simply gainst str bonus
Dunamin 10-27-06, 08:07 AM	Well you could charge the cost of the spell in addition to the regular difference... just to KISS. Using wood shape is a good idea. I'd charge 60 gp for the spell, plus the normal difference in price based on the type of bow. (As per primemover) Yes, those components of the price would be 60 gp for the spell and 100 gp for the price difference in market value. What I’m mostly having trouble figuring out is what I should charge for having someone with a high enough skill modifier to work in conjunction with the spellcasting. The DC to craft a comp. bow [Str +4] is 23. By taking 10, a skill modifier of +13 is thus required to automatically succeed. According to DMG 2 p 155, this can be accomplished by a level 1 specialist. So, by the crafting rules progress per week on taking 10 would be 23 (check result) x 23 (DC) = 529 sp worth of value. If the value is merely the price difference of 100 gp (rather than charging for building a comp. bow [+4 Str] from scratch), that would normally be 2 weeks of work for the expert. DMG 2 p 156 lists his daily rate to be skill modifier divided by 5, rounded down. That’s 13/5 = 2,6 -> 2 gp/day, or 14 days x 2 gp/day = 28 gp in total. Even though Wood Shape is an instantaneous spell, I suppose we could say a “special casting” of it leaves the bow just workable for the specialist for a prolonged period. Or perhaps just rule that the process is instantaneous, but the effort in directing the shaping of the bow by the specialist is still charged as if he’s made 2 weeks of work? I suppose they ought to be the same person? A druid 3 / specialist 1 who specialized in Craft (bowmaking)? There's warp wood, polymorph any object, fabricate, and that's just the first three ways I can think of offhand to have magic maybe do the necessary work. Well, warp wood “cause wood to bend and warp, permanently destroying its straightness, form, and strength.” So that’s not it. Fabricate is level 5 and polymorph any object level 8 and neither can effect magical items (the bow is also magical). So wood shape (level 2) seems to me to be the best way to go. Being magical, the bow would receive a save, but I assume the person attending the magical object can voluntarily fail the save, just as he can voluntarily fail his own. you can always upgrade and modify a sword or armor or crossbow.. so why not a bow? Could you elaborate? Are you referring to additional magical enhancements? Because this is not the issue at hand. a crossbow is made of many laminated pieces of wood, bown or metal curved and recurved into the correct shape. so the craft check assumes that i simply dissasemble, modify, and reassemble the bow. since the majority of the new bow is from the origginal bow. it retains all properties and simply gainst str bonus I’m no bowmaker expert, but it doesn’t seem to me to be as simple as that. I would think a more powerful bow generally would require at least a bigger piece of material for the main component, not simply “attaching” additional material on top. However, I’m only considering how to fairly price this with magical aid, not whether it’s possible to do so without (by which I agree with Dalthbar). So, I arrive at 60 gp for the spell + 100 gp for extra market value + 28 gp for the bowmaking expertise = 188 gp. If later the player wants to further upgrade from Str +4 to Str +5, this would require a skill modifier of +15, to match DC 25 on take 10, which requires a level 2 specialist. Progress is now 25 x 25 = 625 sp per week or 625 cp per day. It would take 13 days work, costing 15 / 5 = 3 gp per day, or 39 gp in total. Final price would be 60 for the spell + 100 for extra market value + 39 for bowmaking expertise = 199 gp. What do you guys think?
Sunrider 10-27-06, 08:08 AM	Dispel Magic to make the bow temporarily nonmagical. Fabricate to shape the non-magical bow material into a new bow (requires appropriate Craft check). When the Dispel wears off, you now have a new, stronger bow.
jaelis 10-27-06, 08:20 AM	Yes, those components of the price would be 60 gp for the spell and 100 gp for the price difference in market value. What I’m mostly having trouble figuring out is what I should charge for having someone with a high enough skill modifier to work in conjunction with the spellcasting.... This issue should be subsumed in the market price of the upgrade. If you want a masterwork sword, you don't have to seek out and specifcally pay a high-level weapon smith to make it... it is assumed that the price of the sword takes care of that. I'd use the same logic here. The price increase is enough to pay someone to make it in the first place, it should be enough to pay someone to do the upgrade. What do you guys think? I think you're thinking about it too much. If you want to allow upgrading a bow, this is a fair way to do it. If you don't want to, just don't... nothing in the rules says you can. Don't sweat the details.
Damned slayer 10-27-06, 09:18 AM	I’m no bowmaker expert, but it doesn’t seem to me to be as simple as that. I would think a more powerful bow generally would require at least a bigger piece of material for the main component, not simply “attaching” additional material on top. What do you guys think? actually just by changing the what is it called rope?? or cord w/e just by changing it you can alter the strenght of your bow (real life)
Steevo 10-27-06, 10:41 AM	1. you can always upgrade and modify a sword or armor or crossbow.. so why not a bow? Upgrade and modify a sword, armor or crossbow how? Swords add your Str bonus because you apply the muscle to the blow, it has nothing to do with the weapon itself. Composite crossbows don't exist (that I'm aware of) and armor has nothing to be upgraded, aside from possibly resizing a suit of platemail, but that's another thread. If you're talking about upgrading a sword to a masterwork sword, you're flat out wrong. Masterwork equipment must be forged as masterwork in the first place. Masterworking is integral to the entire weapon, not just specific components, so disassembling and reassembling will not change this aspect of a weapon. Unless, of course, you reassemble with all new components, in which case I am stupefied as to why you disassembled your old weapon in the first place. If you're talking about adding magical enhancements to a masterwork weapon/armor, you're right, but that also has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Composite bows do not add Str to damage because of any kind of magical property.
DarkFern 10-27-06, 10:56 AM	I'd have to say you can do it. You can totaly re-enforce the a bow with inlays or through magical means by toughening the wood. That said, it would be much easier (and cheaper) just making a new bow with a higher strength bonus. :evillaugh
Tyler Do'Urden 10-27-06, 01:34 PM	You can't make a nonmasterwork weapon masterwork. You can't make a noncomposite bow composite. You can't make a +1 Str bow a +2 Str bow. Not with a simple mundane Craft skill at least. However, you could do all of the above with a fabricate spell and a sufficient Craft check, and probably some nebulous extra materials to make up the value difference.
Watchman 10-27-06, 05:36 PM	Composite bows are better than all-wood self ones because they're made of more than wood. Sinew and horn, specifically. Glued together. With an absurd number of different glues all with their particular characteristics. And apparently took around a year to dry properly, and the thing was kept "bent reverse" all the time. I figure suitable magic - probably requiring a purpose-designed spell, but then what else do non-adventuring mages do except figure out ways to make a profit with their spellz ? - could do the job, but otherwise fuhgeddabouddit.
Dunamin 10-28-06, 05:25 AM	Yes, those components of the price would be 60 gp for the spell and 100 gp for the price difference in market value. What I’m mostly having trouble figuring out is what I should charge for having someone with a high enough skill modifier to work in conjunction with the spellcasting.... This issue should be subsumed in the market price of the upgrade. If you want a masterwork sword, you don't have to seek out and specifcally pay a high-level weapon smith to make it... it is assumed that the price of the sword takes care of that. I'd use the same logic here. The price increase is enough to pay someone to make it in the first place, it should be enough to pay someone to do the upgrade. You may be right, 160 gp just seems a bit low for what I had in mind...
Mahali Audran 10-30-06, 01:31 PM	I'm a fan of the Dispell Magic, Woodshape method. problem is finding someone with a craft skill high enough that can cast the Woodshape. Alternatively someone with a high craft skill and the time to do it. As mentioned compound bows are just bows made out of different layers, commonly with different materials as well. Recurves as someone said "bent reverse" is a bow design that be used with single wood or compound designs. By adding another layer to the bow, possibly shaving it first so its not greatly increasing thickness, you could increase the Str bonus. I think this would require more skill than making one from scratch although it'd be a lot faster. Another 50% cost? A couple hundred gold seems appropriate when not using spells.
Zaistars69 10-30-06, 01:41 PM	Composite longbows are made up of more than just wood. you would have to find a satisfatorly magical way to upgrade this or just suck it up and have a lower bow. Here is a good website that describes how you make a comp bow. http://www.primitiveways.com/pt-composite_bow.html Remember, they aren't the compound bows of today, very different.
Dunamin 11-06-06, 12:02 PM	I'm a fan of the Dispell Magic, Woodshape method. Hmm, I don't think Dispel Magic is a particular concern, since Wood Shape works on magic gear as well. Also, isn't this the case?: I assume the person attending the magical object can voluntarily fail the save, just as he can voluntarily fail his own.
Mahali Audran 11-06-06, 03:08 PM	Hmm, I don't think Dispel Magic is a particular concern, since Wood Shape works on magic gear as well. Also, isn't this the case?: From previous suggestions I was thinking Wood Shape's target had to be nonmagical.