Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bak 07-11-06, 03:48 AM	Some big monsters have Swallow Whole, which is very useful and powerful against someone who has no light weapons. A rogue, on the other hand, has a show time to Sneak Attack from inside. However, to be swallowed, a rogue must be hit, to be Improved Grab, to be grapple and Constrict (if any) on the first round, and another grapple and constrict on the second to be swallowed. It incurs plenty of damage which is really painful and deadly to a rogue. Now I have a question: can a Halfling rogue tumble into a Behir’s stomach or mouth voluntarily? This means the rogue only takes damage on the second round (by losing a grapple and being constrict) to be swallowed, in order to avoid being hit first. A high Jump and Tumble modifier is a must. So, can he ready an action to jump, when a big monster bites his ally, without provoking AoO and that like?
jaelis 07-11-06, 12:08 PM	By the 3.5 rules, you can't move into a creature's stomach, you have to go through the swallowing process. You could, however, initiate the grapple yourself I suppose. As a houserule, I wouldn't allow it in most cases. Creatures don't hang around with their throats open waiting for food to crawl in... eating is more of an active process. Whether a swallowed rogue can use sneak attack is yet another question. I know it's been debated, but I tend to say no because you can't target a vital spot. (A creature's stomach being not vital.)
Someone 07-11-06, 12:16 PM	Constrict and Swallow Whole are two different things, you don't have to do one to do the other. Each creature's Improved Grab says whether they can constrict or swallow as a result. I can't think of any creature that can do both at the same time. So, the behir could swallow the halfling without a constrict, provided it hit with the improved grab. Also, you generally can't sneak attack while inside a creature. They aren't flat footed when you're inside, you can't flank them while inside, so I can't see how you would get sneak attack damage.
Alynn 07-11-06, 12:19 PM	The swallowing process would have to happen, however there is nothting that says you HAVE to do the opposed grapple check, IE waiving your check and taking a 1, making it just about a guarentee. However, I can say that a stomach is vital, damage to the stomach can be a debilitating wound. Ask anyone with a bleeding ulcer. Now consider ulcers happening 2 to 3 times a round.
ShinAkuma2 07-11-06, 12:21 PM	Also, you generally can't sneak attack while inside a creature. They aren't flat footed when you're inside, you can't flank them while inside, so I can't see how you would get sneak attack damage. It isn't flat-footed, but the Swallow Whole rules do say it has "no modifiers for size or Dexterity". Some, and by "some" I mean "I", would say that's good enough for a Sneak Attack, since you are RIGHT NEXT TO its vital organs anyway.
Wonton2006 07-11-06, 12:29 PM	Also, you generally can't sneak attack while inside a creature. They aren't flat footed when you're inside, you can't flank them while inside, so I can't see how you would get sneak attack damage. :rofl: I just got the best idea! Improved Feint! Oh, yeah, stomach, I bet you thought I was gonna stab you there, well, now I'm going to stab you here! Combine with Dual Strike for double the sneak attack action. I've heard of something similar, and it involved a Shadowdancer shadowjumping into a gizzard.
chitzk0i 07-11-06, 12:48 PM	This makes me think of Agent Kay and the bug. "Eat me!"
Masterfulks 07-11-06, 01:22 PM	I'd say no and no. Sneak attack from the inside is kinda cheesy. It's not like you are standing on solid ground, flanking your opponent, and planning to hit that sweet spot. You are bouncing around inside a large beast with many nasty smells, and typically some kind of acid in the belly. Everything around you would be mushy and no real place to get a hold of anything. You can only attack with a small weapon (I think in many cases) because of the situation.
MerlintheTuna 07-11-06, 01:54 PM	So basically, you're positing that it makes perfect sense that stabbing vital organs from outside a creature, through tough hide deals extra damage, but stabbing vital organs from INSIDE, where it has absolutely no protection, should NOT deal extra damage. ...Interesting.
Masterfulks 07-11-06, 01:58 PM	AC determines the stabbing through hide. I could see a feat involved that allowed sneak attacks from inside a creature. Rogues practice their backstabs from the outside, doing so from the inside would be a lot different experience. I'd also argue that the rogue doesnt know exactly where he would be striking anyway. Lack of light, could be an issue as well. Sure he's inside (which also has an AC which is sometimes higher than the external AC, but the character should be pretty shaken up from just being swallowed.
mvincent 07-11-06, 02:14 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: "Does a character who has been swallowed whole treat the swallowing monster as flat-footed? The Sage thinks that’s a reasonable interpretation. The “swallow whole” entry on page 315 of the Monster Manual indicates that the AC of the interior of a swallowing creature has “no modifiers for . . . Dexterity.” While this isn’t necessarily quite the same as saying that the monster is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it’s pretty close. In addition, it certainly seems true that the swallowed character has total concealment from (i.e., is “invisible to”) the swallowing creature, which would allow the character to treat the creature as flat-footed against his attacks. Put together, this means that letting the rogue get gulped might make an effective way to defeat a swallowing monster . . . assuming the bite and ongoing damage doesn’t kill her."
dengarbountyhunter 07-11-06, 08:48 PM	And even if the rogue had 14 godzillion ranks in Knowledge (anatomy) and he knew EXACTLY where to strike from the stomach to get another vital spot, the stomach grants soft cover to the other organs. Cover= no sneak attack. Edit: hey just something I wondered; does DR apply to attacks made from the inside (by a swallowed rogue for example)?
ShinAkuma2 07-11-06, 10:25 PM	And even if the rogue had 14 godzillion ranks in Knowledge (anatomy) and he knew EXACTLY where to strike from the stomach to get another vital spot, the stomach grants soft cover to the other organs. Cover= no sneak attack. Since when? Perhaps you're thinking concealment? As for DR, I think it would still apply. The creature's guts are just as tough or regeneraty as the hide, I guess.
Juzzman 07-12-06, 12:26 AM	And even if the rogue had 14 godzillion ranks in Knowledge (anatomy) and he knew EXACTLY where to strike from the stomach to get another vital spot, the stomach grants soft cover to the other organs. Cover= no sneak attack. Much as i'd like to agree with you (Sneak attacking while being chewed, swallowed, bathed in ickyness and then digested, makes little sense to me), if you claim the stomach gives internal organs cover, then Skin would also give vital organs soft cover on the outside :-) Considering the relatively low chance of having to worry about the rogue tap dancing his way to stomachville for a acid soaked stabbing frenzy, i cant see the ability to sneak attack after ingestion being an issue. More a source of entertainment :-) <picturing a badly lacerated hafling rouge, covered in saliva and stomach acid, being violently shaken around as he tries to brace himself against the slimy acid oozing walls of the monster, gasping from lack of air, patting his pockest looking for his everburning candle cause he forgot it would be dark in there!> Juz
tak3thatback 07-12-06, 01:26 AM	Regardless, get DR 30/acid if you plan on doing such a silly thing.. and I suppose DR 10-15/magic. The stomach isn't a natural weapon, so I wouldn't consider it capable of beating magic DR. Acid and stomach compression handled this way. The cheaper route is called a Ring of Free Movement.
Derren S. 07-12-06, 01:48 AM	You can't sneak attack from the inside as when swallowed you are still considered grappling.
Nom 07-12-06, 02:28 AM	However, I can say that a stomach is vital, damage to the stomach can be a debilitating wound. Ask anyone with a bleeding ulcer. Now consider ulcers happening 2 to 3 times a round.Considering that the rules allow you to cut your way out through the stomach and abdomen without otherwise impeding the creature, I don't think the rules are with you on this one.
KmartKommando 07-12-06, 02:51 AM	You can still sneak attack someone who can't see you, even when you're grappled. If you're invisible, and someone manages to grapple you, you can still sneak attack them, at a -4, but still SA is available to you. Ditto, if you're invisble and grappled, but next to an enemy that can't see you. You don't threaten, but you can still attack them, and if they don't have uncanny dodge, they can take the SA. The creature that swallows you can't see you anymore, and if you can see in its stomach, you should be able to sneak attack, since you are fulfilling 1 of the two ways of getting sneak attack, namely, denying your target of their dex bonus (by having total concealment). If the creature that swallows the rogue has uncanny dodge, then the rogue wouldn't get to sneak attack. That is straight out of the rules, under sneak attack, concealment, uncanny dodge and grappling. The rule for cutting your way out is only there because of how the grapple rules are skewed so far toward the NPC creature. Not everyone has access to freedom of movement, dim door, or 50 ranks in escape artist. How fun would it be if the whole party got swallowed, with no chance of getting out? Hence the whole cutting-your-way-out clause.
Dragonteuthis 07-12-06, 07:09 AM	Regardless, get DR 30/acid if you plan on doing such a silly thing. Just a quick note, Damage Reduction doesn't work that way. I know everyone has different opinions about Swallow Whole and the repercussions. Personally, I rule that the swallowing creature cannot be sneak attacked by a swallowed victim. My logic is that a Rogue's sneak attack is entirely dependent on the Rogue knowing precisely where to strike...and being bounced around in a dark, undulating internal organ does not allow this. The Rogue is striking blindly, no more effective than a Fighter, simply because he has no idea where to strike for extra damage. If, somehow, a Rogue trained himself in the art of striking from inside a creature, then sure (assuming he can get past the darkness thing, too). But I really don't think that's something they'd teach at Thieve's school. Also, I feel that it's against the flavor of the game for a monster's ability to actually make the monster easier to defeat. In a case like this.
Rakasha#5 07-12-06, 10:27 AM	actually striking just about ANYWHERE inside a creature's stomach would be a vital place Vital Organs next to or near the stomach: Liver Intestines (large and small) gallbladder pancreas diaphragm (the muscle that pushes you're lungs) and a few others to which their names escape me That's quite a few, PLUS cutting open the stomach anywhere causes acid to spill onto your internal organs, MUCH worse that onto your skin from say acid breath. I'd say yes for sneak attack but it seems a bit of a kamakazie attack.
Derren S. 07-12-06, 12:35 PM	You can still sneak attack someone who can't see you, even when you're grappled. Thts wrong. When grappling don't loose their DEX bonus to each other so when you are grappling you can't sneak attack. Also when a creature is designed to swallow living creatures the stomach is certanly made that way so that fighting prey can't harm it that easily so it is not a vital organ.
ShinAkuma2 07-12-06, 02:03 PM	Thts wrong. When grappling don't loose their DEX bonus to each other so when you are grappling you can't sneak attack. You can still Sneak attack through pther methods: Being invisible, feinting, etc. They don't lose their dex vs you when grappling you, but that's as opposed to losing to everyone outside the grapple. It can still be denied through any means normal available. Also when a creature is designed to swallow living creatures the stomach is certanly made that way so that fighting prey can't harm it that easily so it is not a vital organ. I have a picture of a snake that swallowed an alligator that disgrees with you.
Dragonteuthis 07-12-06, 02:06 PM	actually striking just about ANYWHERE inside a creature's stomach would be a vital place. That's exactly my point. The Fighter then, by your logic, should be doing equal sneak attack damage.
Derren S. 07-12-06, 02:20 PM	I have a picture of a snake that swallowed an alligator that disgrees with you. Aliving, still fighting alligator?
ShinAkuma2 07-12-06, 08:09 PM	An alligator that burst through the snake's stomach. You can see the snake's body, with the alligator's tail and leg sticking out of the hole in his side. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_enl_1128575604/img/1.jpg) The snake swallowed the 'gator, which, from inside the snake, clawed at the snake until the stomach burst open. Both were dead by the time they were found, but clearly the 'gator was alive long enough to fight even while swallowed whole.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-12-06, 08:26 PM	You are inside a vital organ. It doesn't get much sneak attack ready than that.
Dark_Mime 07-12-06, 10:01 PM	The MM does say the creature doesn't get dex modifiers, so you should get sneak attack damage, there might be argument about no anatomy, but it says nowhere in the definition of swallow whole about the stomache being immune to crits and whatnot, so long as the critter could be sneaked before. And maybe I am a bit rusty on sneak attack but I think if you meet a requirement, you can sneak attack while being grappled. Although I wouldn't see why you would want to jump in a critters mouth, but hey I have seen weirder things done.
Derren S. 07-13-06, 01:42 AM	The MM does say the creature doesn't get dex modifiers The MM says teh creature doesn't has a Dex modifier to AC when attacked from inside, it doesn't loose it so no sneak attack. There is a difference between loosing dex to AC and having an special AC without dex modifier.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-13-06, 02:31 AM	Derren, its a sneak attack -- a deathly obvious one too. There's no reason to try to weasel out of it with semantics. Flanking will give more sneak attacks than being swallowed EVER will.
INeedNoSalt 07-13-06, 03:17 AM	I'd probably give the Rogue a pretty big penalty to hit if his intention was anything besides trying to hack a hole in the creature - and I'd disallow the sneak attack for this effort. Presumably, a sneak attack has to be an intentional sort of thing, and it's cool if he's intentionally trying to sneak attack from the inside - but the art of killing something from the inside is a lot different than from the outside, and between being crushed and eaten away at acid, as well as being on uneven footing for the majority of the effort... Of course, this is entirely houseruled, not RAW, but this is how I'd rule it anyway. Perhaps there could be a feat for this; Cyanide Halfling Prerequisite: Sneak attack ability, size small or smaller, must have escaped from a creature's stomache by stabbing it a bunch Benefit: You can deal sneak attack damage with no penalty to-hit while inside of a monster.
Dark_Mime 07-13-06, 03:56 AM	Originally Posted by Derren S. The MM says teh creature doesn't has a Dex modifier to AC when attacked from inside, it doesn't loose it so no sneak attack. There is a difference between loosing dex to AC and having an special AC without dex modifier. Alright given that, what about the rogue having concealment? I doubt the critter will have line of sight to it's stomache. Furthermore unless it states in the critters text criticals and sneak attacks are fair game. (As long as conditions are met) Originally Posted by INeedNoSalt Cyanide Halfling Prerequisite: Sneak attack ability, size small or smaller, must have escaped from a creature's stomache by stabbing it a bunch Benefit: You can deal sneak attack damage with no penalty to-hit while inside of a monster. I like the prereq. How about having to give the creature indegestion?
KmartKommando 07-13-06, 03:58 AM	Thts wrong. When grappling don't loose their DEX bonus to each other so when you are grappling you can't sneak attack. But you ignored the part where I said that the rogue was invisible (or the grappling enemy was blinded somehow). Total concealment and your target not being able to see you makes the sneak attack possible, by denying the target of its dex bonus, whether they have you in a headlock or have swallowed you whole.
Crimson_Concerto 07-13-06, 04:35 AM	Why is this argument still going on? The Sage has already solved it and quite correctly. The creature has no DEX modifier to its AC in relation to the swallowed creature for multiple reasons. It doesn't matter how you want to argue it, sneak attack is very obviously applicable, unless you want to say it's dark so he can't see anything he's striking (thus granting cover or conceilment or something like that), but either way, he is surrounded by vital organs. He can't not hit them if he tries. The MM says teh creature doesn't has a Dex modifier to AC when attacked from inside, it doesn't loose it so no sneak attack. There is a difference between loosing dex to AC and having an special AC without dex modifier.No, no there isn't. That's why you can sneak attack with a feint. In the feinting scenario, the creature still has its DEX modifier to its AC, just not against the attacker. Therefore, the attacker gets sneak attack. EDIT: Oh, right, but I forgot to answer the OP's question. >.< Well I think what I would make the rogue do is begin a grapple himself and then take a full-round action to make an opposed grapple check to force himself down the creature's throat. However, this is probably quite difficult to accomplish considering that a creature that can swallow the rogue whole will in all probability have a very substantial size modifier to the grapple... There's probably a better idea, but that's what I can think of off of the top of my head. I'd definitely say an opposed grapple check of some sort is in order. Skills don't seem like they would do it... EDIT #2:If the creature that swallows the rogue has uncanny dodge, then the rogue wouldn't get to sneak attack. That is straight out of the rules, under sneak attack, concealment, uncanny dodge and grappling.On a complete side note, this is incorrect. Uncanny Dodge makes one immune to flanking and being flat-footed. However, it does not make one immune to being denied their DEX modifier to AC, hence why feinting still works on such enemies as well. Being denied your DEX to AC is not always the same thing as being flat-footed.
jaelis 07-13-06, 09:51 AM	Why is this argument still going on? The Sage has already solved it and quite correctly. In my opinion, the Sage is wrong here, because he failed to consider the "abiltity to reach creature's vitals" clause. If you really think the creature's stomach is vital, then shouldn't every character get sneak attack damage? There is nothing else to hit in this situation.
Derren S. 07-13-06, 10:39 AM	The Sage didn't answer anything, he interpreted and said this quite clearly in his reply. And Crimson you are wrong. The stomach of a creature simply has no Dex in its AC calculation. Or if you like it better the Dex of the stomach is 10 and so it doesn't grant a dex bonus. Not having the dex bonus in its AC calculation doesn't mean that the stomach looses it. As for the line of sight, it is irrelevant. You are not attacking the creature but its stomach so that the creature can't see you doesn't matter. Sneak attacking while beeing swallowed is just wishfull thinking of some munchkins and not supported by any rules.
Dark_Mime 07-13-06, 05:02 PM	It is far from overpowered or effective, you are taking constant damage (plus 2 bite attacks from enetering). Lets look at an average behir (94 hp) and CR 8 so we will assume an 8th lvl rogue is inside lets say he is a halfling with a con of 14 (29-64 hp) he will be taking 2d8+8+8 dmg per round (18-32) he could last 2-4 rounds, not to mention the bite damage 2d4+12 (28-40 from two attacks cutting his time in half), now he prolly has a short sword or something close to it and 12 str and will deal 1d4+1 damage (2-5) which against the 25 hp of the stomache will take 5-13 (or 3-7 if he is full attacking) rounds . Now if he sneak attacks his damage goes up a bit 1d4+1+4d6 (6-29) which can take him 1-5 (1-3 if again full attacking) rounds to get free. But just my take on the matter.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-13-06, 05:16 PM	actually striking just about ANYWHERE inside a creature's stomach would be a vital place Vital Organs next to or near the stomach: Liver Intestines (large and small) gallbladder pancreas diaphragm (the muscle that pushes you're lungs) and a few others to which their names escape me That's quite a few, PLUS cutting open the stomach anywhere causes acid to spill onto your internal organs, MUCH worse that onto your skin from say acid breath. I'd say yes for sneak attack but it seems a bit of a kamakazie attack. The gallbladder is not a bloody vital organ. The pancreas is barely one. The intestines are not organs that damage to causes rapid death. Neither is the liver, which can lose 90% of it's mass and still work. The diaphragm doesn't push the lungs. It helps with breathing, but isn't necessary.
Bak 07-14-06, 12:54 PM	Thanks for all comments. I have never thought about this post would be so hot. My main interest for posting is that I am curious to know whether or not there is a “shortcut” to reach a big monster's stomach, without being damaged too much. And I got the answer “no” quite straight forward. I think my Rogue teammate would stop asking something like “tumble to avoid damage to go inside” etc. For the Sneak Attack part, although it is debatable, our game just uses common sense: Yes. If you swallow a needle and it strikes your stomach (movement caused by stomach’s normal activities), would it be deadly or more painful than it strikes your skin? Our entire group members say “yes”. And with the FAQ, we simply allow Sneak Attack from inside. The gallbladder is not a bloody vital organ. The pancreas is barely one. The intestines are not organs that damage to causes rapid death. Neither is the liver, which can lose 90% of it's mass and still work. The diaphragm doesn't push the lungs. It helps with breathing, but isn't necessary. I agree gallbladder and pancreas are not “vital” for the purpose of being attacked. But, if your intestines or liver is hurt by a blade directly, it does cause death. It may not be an instant death, that’s why it is just a “Sneak Attack”, not a “Death Attack”. Lastly, if your diaphragm gets hurt, you just simply can’t breathe. Yes it is not “pushing” your lung directly. It is “just” changing your pressure of chest (sorry I don’t know Bio terms in English, so I hope someone could rewrite these few sentences.). This is the breathing mechanism. Your lung is never “pushed” by your diaphragm or other organs, it is “pushed” by the air.
Crimson_Concerto 07-14-06, 02:01 PM	In my opinion, the Sage is wrong here, because he failed to consider the "abiltity to reach creature's vitals" clause. If you really think the creature's stomach is vital, then shouldn't every character get sneak attack damage? There is nothing else to hit in this situation.How is it that if you are inside of a creature, you are not able to hit its vital organs. You are a lot closer to them than you were when you were outside the thing, and here is so much less impeding you (less natural armor, no armor, shield, DEX modifier, etc.) it's not even funny. There's plenty of organs all around you just begging to be stabbed. Saying the stomach can be your only target is like saying when the rogue is outside the skin can be it's only target. Regardless of whether or not you consider the stomach a vital organ, a creature's head (where its brain is, and nobody will deny that is a vital organ) is always present, by your reasoning, shouldn't ever creature get sneak attack damage? It's right there, isn't it? No, of course not, that doesn't make any sense. It's not that a rogue is hitting something, it's how he's hitting it. Sneak attack has less to do with what the target is and more to do with how you're hitting it. And Crimson you are wrong. The stomach of a creature simply has no Dex in its AC calculation. Or if you like it better the Dex of the stomach is 10 and so it doesn't grant a dex bonus. Not having the dex bonus in its AC calculation doesn't mean that the stomach looses it.Well now, I don't happen to have the monster manual with me, so let's see what the srd says:Swallow Whole (Ex): If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.Well now I admit I can see where the wording on that might be a bit confusing. Does it mean it has no DEX modifier (I.e., DEX 10) or does it mean the AC has no DEX modifier (i.e., it doesn’t apply its DEX modifier to that AC)? This is unclear (unless it's clearer in the actual MM) now we have to ignore RAW and determine intent to continue the debate: A) In your theory, the inside of a creature has a DEX of 10, and a modifier of +0 is what they mean by “no modifier for DEX.” What are the flaws in this? The internal organs of a creature cannot logically be as dexterous as your average human. Organs have little power to move on their own, and even if they did, where would they dodge to? There’s not really anywhere for them to go to avoid a strike. B) In my theory, the inside of a creature does not get to apply its DEX modifier to AC. This is because the insides of the creature have nowhere to dodge to, even if they can dodge, which is unlikely. That are the flaws with this? Why isn’t there a DEX penalty applied to the AC? Those stay regardless of whether a creature is flat-footed or not, don’t they? In the end, we’re going to simply have to rely on logic, and I think B works a lot more logically than A. If you disagree please explain so I can try to see where you might be coming from. The diaphragm doesn't push the lungs. It helps with breathing, but isn't necessary.What? Bak is correct. I don't think the diaphragm does what you think it does. Without the diaphragm, breathing is impossible. The muscular action of the diaphragm is what causes the high and low air pressures in the lungs that translate into inhaling and exhaling. Check out wikipedia:It is critically important in respiration: in order to draw air into the lungs, the diaphragm contracts, thus enlarging the thoracic cavity and reducing intra-thoracic pressure (the external intercostals muscles also participate in this enlargement). When the diaphragm relaxes, air is exhaled by elastic recoil of the lung and the tissues lining the thoracic cavity. The diaphragm is also found in other vertebrates such as reptiles. The diaphragm also helps to expel vomit, feces, and urine from the body by increasing intra-abdominal pressure.
Derren S. 07-14-06, 02:49 PM	Does it mean it has no DEX modifier (I.e., DEX 10) or does it mean the AC has no DEX modifier (i.e., it doesn’t apply its DEX modifier to that AC)? And in both cases it doesn't allow for sneak attacks as the stomach needs ti loos its dex bonus to AC to be sneak attacked. Not having a Dex bonus to AC is not enough.
INeedNoSalt 07-14-06, 03:15 PM	And in both cases it doesn't allow for sneak attacks as the stomach needs ti loos its dex bonus to AC to be sneak attacked. Not having a Dex bonus to AC is not enough. Do you like, feed your party to enemies so often that this is some terrible unbalance in your campaign?
Derren S. 07-14-06, 03:21 PM	Read the first post. Its simply silly that being swallowed would be advantageous for some players and clearly not in the spirit of the rules..
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-14-06, 07:48 PM	What? Bak is correct. I don't think the diaphragm does what you think it does. Without the diaphragm, breathing is impossible. The muscular action of the diaphragm is what causes the high and low air pressures in the lungs that translate into inhaling and exhaling. Check out wikipedia: There are documented cases in which the diaphragm's connection to the lungs has been horribly damaged, even nearly completely severed in some of the cases, usually in a medical operation, and the person to whom this has happened has survived. They have difficulty breathing, but they live. I didn't make myself as clear as I should have. However, the diaphragm would have to be completely severed to kill the person, and that isn't possible within a stomach. Also note that it's quite possible that the Behir doesn't have a diaphragm in the first place.
INeedNoSalt 07-14-06, 09:04 PM	Read the first post. Its simply silly that being swallowed would be advantageous for some players and clearly not in the spirit of the rules.. You're missing the part where the rogue will invariably die trying this stunt anyway.
Crimson_Concerto 07-15-06, 12:09 AM	Also note that it's quite possible that the Behir doesn't have a diaphragm in the first place. :rofl: You may have a point there.
Crimson_Concerto 07-15-06, 12:19 AM	Does it mean it has no DEX modifier (I.e., DEX 10) or does it mean the AC has no DEX modifier (i.e., it doesn’t apply its DEX modifier to that AC)?And in both cases it doesn't allow for sneak attacks as the stomach needs ti loos its dex bonus to AC to be sneak attacked. Not having a Dex bonus to AC is not enough. :uh-huh: Umm, maybe you don't understand what I'm trying to say, so let me try rephrasing that sentence: "Does it mean it has no DEX modifier (i.e. DEX 10), or does it mean the AC does not include one at all (i.e. not even one of +0 because it doens't apply its DEX modifier to that AC)?" That better? Because the second one definitely allows you sneak attack, while the first one does not...
ShinAkuma2 07-15-06, 01:21 AM	You're missing the part where the rogue will invariably die trying this stunt anyway. I must say, D&D is supposed to be a game of heroes. What's more heroic than getting swallowed alive, only to burst through the monster's stomach in a particularly gory display?
Crimson_Concerto 07-15-06, 01:59 AM	I must say, D&D is supposed to be a game of heroes. What's more heroic than getting swallowed alive, only to burst through the monster's stomach in a particularly gory display?I am in complete agreement! :D
ShinAkuma2 07-15-06, 02:20 AM	Seriously, how cool would that be? The party comes up to a T-Rex (or other large beasty with Swallow Whole). Rogue: *smirks* Don't worry, I've got a plan. *runs up, is swallowed* Rest of Party: Oh Boccob! He's chow! [The T-Rex screeches, and *sklitch!* the rogue exits through a gory hole in the dino's hide] Rogue: You guys wanna skin this thing? Party: ...wtfHAX
Derren S. 07-15-06, 03:34 AM	"Does it mean it has no DEX modifier (i.e. DEX 10), or does it mean the AC does not include one at all (i.e. not even one of +0 because it doens't apply its DEX modifier to that AC)?" "Not include a Dex modifier" != "Loose Dex bonus to AC"
Crimson_Concerto 07-15-06, 03:47 AM	"Not include a Dex modifier" != "Loose Dex bonus to AC"Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. They work the same mechanically, exactly. Btw, what's with the random exclaimation point?
ShinAkuma2 07-15-06, 10:49 AM	Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. They work the same mechanically, exactly. Btw, what's with the random exclaimation point? Oh, the irony. He's using the exclamation point in place of the slash through the equal sign, which would mean "DOES NOT EQUAL". Oh, btw, they don't work exactly the same, because a monster with a Dex penalty keeps that when flat-footed, but not when it's swallowed you.
Crimson_Concerto 07-16-06, 04:17 AM	He's using the exclamation point in place of the slash through the equal sign, which would mean "DOES NOT EQUAL".Yes I feared as much but was hoping it was simply a typo so that I could save myself from having to ask how he could possibly think they aren't the same... Oh, btw, they don't work exactly the same, because a monster with a Dex penalty keeps that when flat-footed, but not when it's swallowed you.You make an interesting point, though I'm not sure if it's a valid one yet. I'll need to cross-reference with other DEX-loss circumstances that are not flat-footed such as feint, but for now I must sleep, as I am leaving to vacation in Las Vegas tomorrow! :ayyyy!: I will research and rebuttle when I return if this topic is still up.
DarkSoldier 07-16-06, 05:23 AM	If you really think the creature's stomach is vital, then shouldn't every character get sneak attack damage? Even characters that don't have the sneak attack ability? Joe Fighter, who was unlucky enough to get swallowed by a Giant Monster, suddenly does +2d6 damage to it when he stabs it with his trusty dagger from the inside?
FearzThug 07-16-06, 01:37 PM	Has anything been agreed on here at all? By the logic that everything that the rogue strikes is a vital organ when within the stomach, then by what logic can you deny anyone else a sneak attack there?
ShinAkuma2 07-16-06, 01:45 PM	The fact that they don't have the class ability Sneak Attack? Any doofus can hit a vital organ...Sneak Attack allows you to really make it count.
Crimson_Concerto 07-22-06, 02:30 AM	Back from Vegas! :D Anybody still care about this debate, or shall I just be moving right along? <.<
mvincent 07-24-06, 09:42 PM	Has anything been agreed on here at all?There was the previously mentioned FAQ answer that specifically answered the sneak attack issue.
KmartKommando 07-25-06, 02:34 AM	Unless a creature has X-ray vision, it can't see the rogue it just swallowed, hence the losing of its Dex bonus, whether it has one or not. Total concealment does that (effectively invisible, look up total concealment) Uncanny dodge creature retains its Dex bonus when attacked by an invisible creature (also total concealment). Therefore, creature with swallow whole and uncanny dodge = no sneak attack from within. otherwise, SA is fair game. Our DM ruled against SA from within by the dwarf rogue that got swallowed, even though it is allowed by multiple core rules. :rolleyes: He was the only one who ever ruled against it in our group (and not the only DM in our group).