Can a monk flurry with his natural attacks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a monk flurry with his natural attacks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bart
02-13-06, 05:12 AM I think the title says it all - are natural attacks included in 'unarmed attacks' for things like a monk's ability to flurry?

Does it matter if the monk is born with the natural attacks or he gains them by some sort of shapeshifting?

Thanks!
Rjo
02-13-06, 05:46 AM This is covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)

The relevant part:
When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
Tyler Do'Urden
02-13-06, 05:49 AM What he said. Besides, could you imagine a kata that contained a bite?
Bart
02-13-06, 07:13 AM This is covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)Thanks :)
Dragonteuthis
02-13-06, 07:55 AM What he said. Besides, could you imagine a kata that contained a bite?

That would be awesome
tiluvias99
02-13-06, 10:59 AM The natural weapon attacks cannot be made within a flurry, but they can be made outside of it.

Though the rules aren't 100% clear, you can also do this with non-monk off-hand weapons- For example, a monk wielding a longsword could do his full FoB with his feet, and then he could make an off hand longsword attack after the FoB.
If he had a bite attack, that could be made as well after the FoB.
mvincent
02-13-06, 03:27 PM This is covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)
Unfortunately, it's covered more than once in the FAQ, with seemingly conflicting answers:
"The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.

An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry)."
Branto
02-13-06, 04:38 PM A centaur monk giving a flurry of hoove attacks? ... Now that is just an amusing thought ;) Like the whole Xena flying multi-kick, but just rearing up. Heheheh.

If there isn't one somewhere already, I'd love to see a feat one could take that would allow them to use their natural attacks in a flurry.. and furthermore, I'd really like a way for a monk's natural attacks to be able to grow in strength along with their unarmed ones.. I mean, come on.. if I was a weretiger monk or something, why the heck should I be able to do 20's if I curl my paw into a fist, but never be able to do more than 1d4 or 1d6 or whatever with my claws.. or to make more than 1 or 2 attacks? (You can never gain extra uses of your natural attacks in a full attack, no matter how high your BaB. :( Retarded, huh?)
Ozymandias V.
02-13-06, 05:35 PM The problem seems to stem from the phrase "along with a flurry" instead of "as part of a flurry". That does imply that natural attacks cannot be used in addition to a flurry, but clearly is not what was meant. That is why the two things mentioned SEEM to conflict, but don't.

You can't use nat attacks AS PART OF a flurry, but you can use them IN ADDITION TO a flurry.
kam_Islash
02-13-06, 05:41 PM So wait, a werewolf monk can't use his claws rather than his fists in a flurry?
kraegor
02-13-06, 11:04 PM So wait, a werewolf monk can't use his claws rather than his fists in a flurry?

I think its a silly rule not to allow the claw damage. For instance, my house rule is as a monk, you can use your Unarmed Attack or your Claw damage, whichever is greater.

Soon enough your monk fists are going to be 1d10 or 2d6 or whatever and going to outpace your claw attacks.

I think that adding them as secondary attacks is just silly. I can see a BITE or a tail whip being added as a secondary, but regular claw attacks? No way..
kam_Islash
02-14-06, 01:21 AM Thats kind of what I was thinking.
Rjo
02-14-06, 02:12 AM So wait, a werewolf monk can't use his claws rather than his fists in a flurry?
Yes, because it is not uncommon for creatures to have special abilities tied to their natural attacks, such as poison damage. WotC decided that allowing the extra flurry attacks to be made with natural weapons (and thus the special abilities that might be present) would be too powerful, and limited Flurry of Blows to just unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bart 02-13-06, 05:12 AM	I think the title says it all - are natural attacks included in 'unarmed attacks' for things like a monk's ability to flurry? Does it matter if the monk is born with the natural attacks or he gains them by some sort of shapeshifting? Thanks!
Rjo 02-13-06, 05:46 AM	This is covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) The relevant part: When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
Tyler Do'Urden 02-13-06, 05:49 AM	What he said. Besides, could you imagine a kata that contained a bite?
Bart 02-13-06, 07:13 AM	This is covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)Thanks :)
Dragonteuthis 02-13-06, 07:55 AM	What he said. Besides, could you imagine a kata that contained a bite? That would be awesome
tiluvias99 02-13-06, 10:59 AM	The natural weapon attacks cannot be made within a flurry, but they can be made outside of it. Though the rules aren't 100% clear, you can also do this with non-monk off-hand weapons- For example, a monk wielding a longsword could do his full FoB with his feet, and then he could make an off hand longsword attack after the FoB. If he had a bite attack, that could be made as well after the FoB.
mvincent 02-13-06, 03:27 PM	This is covered in the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) Unfortunately, it's covered more than once in the FAQ, with seemingly conflicting answers: "The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry)."
Branto 02-13-06, 04:38 PM	A centaur monk giving a flurry of hoove attacks? ... Now that is just an amusing thought ;) Like the whole Xena flying multi-kick, but just rearing up. Heheheh. If there isn't one somewhere already, I'd love to see a feat one could take that would allow them to use their natural attacks in a flurry.. and furthermore, I'd really like a way for a monk's natural attacks to be able to grow in strength along with their unarmed ones.. I mean, come on.. if I was a weretiger monk or something, why the heck should I be able to do 20's if I curl my paw into a fist, but never be able to do more than 1d4 or 1d6 or whatever with my claws.. or to make more than 1 or 2 attacks? (You can never gain extra uses of your natural attacks in a full attack, no matter how high your BaB. :( Retarded, huh?)
Ozymandias V. 02-13-06, 05:35 PM	The problem seems to stem from the phrase "along with a flurry" instead of "as part of a flurry". That does imply that natural attacks cannot be used in addition to a flurry, but clearly is not what was meant. That is why the two things mentioned SEEM to conflict, but don't. You can't use nat attacks AS PART OF a flurry, but you can use them IN ADDITION TO a flurry.
kam_Islash 02-13-06, 05:41 PM	So wait, a werewolf monk can't use his claws rather than his fists in a flurry?
kraegor 02-13-06, 11:04 PM	So wait, a werewolf monk can't use his claws rather than his fists in a flurry? I think its a silly rule not to allow the claw damage. For instance, my house rule is as a monk, you can use your Unarmed Attack or your Claw damage, whichever is greater. Soon enough your monk fists are going to be 1d10 or 2d6 or whatever and going to outpace your claw attacks. I think that adding them as secondary attacks is just silly. I can see a BITE or a tail whip being added as a secondary, but regular claw attacks? No way..
kam_Islash 02-14-06, 01:21 AM	Thats kind of what I was thinking.
Rjo 02-14-06, 02:12 AM	So wait, a werewolf monk can't use his claws rather than his fists in a flurry? Yes, because it is not uncommon for creatures to have special abilities tied to their natural attacks, such as poison damage. WotC decided that allowing the extra flurry attacks to be made with natural weapons (and thus the special abilities that might be present) would be too powerful, and limited Flurry of Blows to just unarmed strikes and monk weapons.