Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 03-18-07, 10:44 PM	Ok, let's say you've used some mahic to make a really convincing image of yourself, and your enemy has NO idea which one is the real you. Logically, until he knows which one is real, if you move your image into a position that threatens him, he'd have to react as if you were actually there (unless he ignores you completely) correct? So, let's say you and your image take up position on opposite sides of the enemy. He should be flanked, since he really doesn't know which one to pay full attention to. And by extention, if you use this logic, then if you direct your image to feint (using your own Bluff ranks of course since you're the one controlling what the image does), then your image can actually make the enemy lose his dexterity bonus to AC against you! Anyone else think this is logical?
Chrono Nexus 03-18-07, 10:55 PM	You're talking about Mirror Image. There are a few reasons why flanking wouldn't work. 1. Images cannot threaten. If you cannot threaten, you cannot flank. 2. Illusory selves created by Mirror Image all have the same facing, they are reflections of the caster in every regard. 3. An illusion could perform a feint, I don't see why not. But there are some limitations to this. Such a degree of control of the illusion would require just as much effort by the controller of the illusion as if he had done it himself. Additionally, the feint would count as interaction, possibly allowing an additional save to disbelieve. Mirror Image doesn't allow for this kind of detailed control. The caster can't change the appearance of the images, they merely mirror his appearance.
FrostHammer 03-18-07, 11:07 PM	Not mirror image. Major Image. Beguiler using Major Image to feint wshile casting spells from a distance to get Surprise and Cloaked Casting to work.
ShinAkuma2 03-18-07, 11:09 PM	Well, if the image could feint, the enemy would lose his dex vs the image, not you.
Chrono Nexus 03-18-07, 11:12 PM	Not mirror image. Major Image. Beguiler using Major Image to feint wshile casting spells from a distance to get Surprise and Cloaked Casting to work. Sure. If you have improved feint, you can feint with the image in combat as a move action, which would grant another save and an opposed sense motive, which you could then follow with a spell. Hmm... I guess I should have thought it out. The image isn't the one performing the feint. Rather, Frosthammer would be performing the feint with the image. So I think it could work.
FrostHammer 03-18-07, 11:34 PM	I don't need Improved Feint. At 6th level, Beguilers automatically get to fent in combat as a move action instead of a standard action. It rocks. And I just think that *logically* a major image can flank because the opponent does not know which is which, and has to pay attention to both of them. I'll have to discuss this with my DM...
draconic_swine 03-19-07, 07:48 AM	Definitely talk to your DM about it. Major image doesn't talk about flanking, so anything related to this will have to be a DM call. Also, who exactly is going to be doing the feinting? You, or one of the major images? Because if its one of the images, there's no benefit - feinting only denies an opponent his Dexterity bonus to the person (or in this case, the image) who performed the feint, so it wouldn't help you.
mugguod 03-19-07, 08:41 AM	I have used a similar tactic before. Using Major Image, I create a copy of our party's Barbarian or Fighter to distract and draw off fire so to speak. I hadn't thought of the flanking possibility. About the Feint, I aggree with what has already been said, the opponent only looses his Dex bonus relative to the one who feints, nobody else. About the Flanking, yes it seems reasonable that opponent will have to respond to the image as if it is an actual threat. But the image could not just stand there. It would have to pretend to swing its weapon (feint?) just to maintain the illusion. If it were to Feint every round, the opponent should get suspicious (another Will-Save). If it were to take a swing that appears to hit, but does no damage, that's definitely "interacted with" (another Will-Save)
tarkin 03-19-07, 11:00 AM	It should be possible to flank with an image, but only ONE round per image. Flanking means that you are "threatening" someone. To threaten someone requires that you make a steady stream of constant jab attacks. (It is the ability to turn these jab attacks into real attacks when an opportunity exists that allows you to make AoO's.) If an image is making constant attacks, but never comes close to 'connecting', is not really threatening you. It is sort of like having a dog on a leash growling and snapping his jaws, but he never even looks like he is getting close enough to attack you. To convincingly get you to pay enough attention to the image, you should have to use something besides a Mirror Image (as that is not sufficiently controlled by you) and any round it gets that close should be considered 'interacting' with you, granting you a save to disbelieve it.