Can any monster use a natural weapon as a secondary attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can any monster use a natural weapon as a secondary attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ranger-99
12-09-06, 03:13 AM Let's take the kolyarut as an example. The Monster Manual indicates that, for melee attacks, a kolyarut uses either a longsword or a slam attack. It does not indicate that the kolyarut can or will fight with both at the same time, using the slam as a secondary natural weapon attack.

Does this mean that the kolyarut cannot use the slam attack as a secondary natural weapon attack in addition to using the longsword? Or, does this merely mean that the kolyarut does not normally fight in that manner?

More generically, can any monster with a natural weapon use that weapon as a secondary attack in addition to a weapon attack even if the stats do not indicate this manner of attacking?
runestar
12-09-06, 03:28 AM Does this mean that the kolyarut cannot use the slam attack as a secondary natural weapon attack in addition to using the longsword?
Yup. It only has a single slam attack(hence the 1.5 str bonus). I think this implies that it uses both its fists in that single slam. Thus using a longsword in one hand would preclude the use of said hand, thus preventing it from using its slam attack.
Ranger-99
12-09-06, 11:05 AM Yup. It only has a single slam attack(hence the 1.5 str bonus). I think this implies that it uses both its fists in that single slam. Thus using a longsword in one hand would preclude the use of said hand, thus preventing it from using its slam attack.

Thank you for the reply, Runestar.

If that's true, what about the Balor as another example. It fights with either a longsword and a whip, or 2 slams. Clearly, each slam uses only 1 hand in this case since it gets a slam with each fist, and each slam adds only x1 Str bonus to damage.

What if the balor drops its whip? Would it be able to make a longsword attack plus a slam attack?
draconic_swine
12-09-06, 11:51 AM Does this mean that the kolyarut cannot use the slam attack as a secondary natural weapon attack in addition to using the longsword? Or, does this merely mean that the kolyarut does not normally fight in that manner?

More generically, can any monster with a natural weapon use that weapon as a secondary attack in addition to a weapon attack even if the stats do not indicate this manner of attacking?

I'm gonna say no. The MM is pretty explicit in the attack entries what a creature can and cannot do. Anything else would be a houserule (and probably warrant some bonus XP if you make a creature's full attack more deadly by adding attacks; not necessarily a CR bump, just some bonus XP).

If that's true, what about the Balor as another example. It fights with either a longsword and a whip, or 2 slams. Clearly, each slam uses only 1 hand in this case since it gets a slam with each fist, and each slam adds only x1 Str bonus to damage.

What if the balor drops its whip? Would it be able to make a longsword attack plus a slam attack?

Again, RAW I don't see this as being possible, but this (subbing one attack for another) would be a more than reasonable thing to do.
Ranger-99
12-09-06, 11:58 AM ...Again, RAW I don't see this as being possible, but this (subbing one attack for another) would be a more than reasonable thing to do.

Thank you for the reply, draconic. My question is answered, then. No secondary natural attacks for monsters unless the description specifically says so.

Thanks, folks!
jaelis
12-09-06, 03:00 PM I think draconic_swine's answer is too restrictive. I don't think the MM attack entries are meant in any way to be exhaustive, but rather to just reflect a creatures typical attack sequences. For instance, if you disarmed a balor of it's whip, you bet I'd give him a slam to make up for it.

Here's some evidence in favor of that:
- Elves are listed as longsword or longbow. Does that mean you can't arm an elf with anything else?
- The vampire monk's entry lists unarmed strike +14/+14/+9 or kama +16/+16/+11. Is that supposed to mean the vampire can't interchange kama and unarmed strikes in a flurry?
- No monster lists "grapple" in it's full attack entry. Does that mean that monster's can't initiate a grapple unless they have the Improved Grab feat?

But your kolyarut example is particularly odd, because it is listed as getting an iterative slam attack. (It says slam +11/+6.) It gets 1-1/2 x Str, which would indeed indicate that it has only a single slam weapon. But then, the longsword gets 1-1/2 x Str as well. I guess the simplest interpretation is that it just has one slam weapon, the second slam is an error, and it wields it's longsword in two hands. It thus wouldn't combine a slam and sword attack in the same round.
draconic_swine
12-09-06, 10:46 PM Here's some evidence in favor of that:
- Elves are listed as longsword or longbow. Does that mean you can't arm an elf with anything else?

If you're a stock level one elf warrior, well, I guess that does mean you're only able to use a longsword or longbow :P

Seriously, you're probably right that my previous answer was too restrictive. Like I said previously, it's reasonable to allow the DM to switch out attacks for other ones (especially if they're manufactured weapons). But I still think that adding attacks (such as the natural attack in addition to the weapon attack in the OP) shouldn't be allowed. Increasing a creature's full attack increases its deadliness which increases its difficulty. Swapping yes, adding no.
jaelis
12-10-06, 10:45 AM Sure, but you would assume that the MM doesn't ordinarily leave off attacks that a creature should have. And most of the time it doesn't. The kolyarut example is strange in several ways, but most monsters are pretty straightforward. I do agree you shouldn't simply add attacks to a creature, but almost always there's no reason to anyway.

But it's true that slams are the annoying thing, because you generally don't know what part of the body is being used. That has always bugged me about warforged... they get one natural slam attack. Can they make it if armed with a 1H weapon? What about a 2H weapon? (letting go of a weapon is a free action, remember!) What about a 1H weapon and buckler? What if they are a monk? If they make the slam with a fist, why don't they get two if unarmed? Not that these questions are hard to answer (personally, I say treat it just like a spiked gauntlet in terms of when you can attack with it), but still.
Derren S.
12-10-06, 10:48 AM Monsters can always use natural attacks as secondary attacks together with a normal weapon as long as the natural weapon is "free". Look in the FAQ for that.
jaelis
12-10-06, 12:04 PM Yeah, but it's not always clear when the weapon is "free". That's the issue.
Ranger-99
12-10-06, 01:22 PM Monsters can always use natural attacks as secondary attacks together with a normal weapon as long as the natural weapon is "free". Look in the FAQ for that.

I looked in the FAQ, and actually found evidence contrary to what you say, Derren.

Below is the relevant part of an answer to a question about centaur monks in the Main FAQ that is dated 11/22/06:

---
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks).
---

Note the bolded text. That indicates to me that unless the monster entry specifically states that the monster attacks with both natural weapons and manufactured weapons, the monster is unable to use both at the same time.

But it's true that slams are the annoying thing, because you generally don't know what part of the body is being used.

A slam is made with an arm or similar appendage. According to the SRD:

---
The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm).
---

Admittedly, the direct definition of Slam is a bit more vague:

---
Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
---

Still, I think the first quote makes it pretty clear.
NoldorForce
12-10-06, 02:17 PM I looked in the FAQ, and actually found evidence contrary to what you say, Derren.

Below is the relevant part of an answer to a question about centaur monks in the Main FAQ that is dated 11/22/06:

---
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks).
---

Note the bolded text. That indicates to me that unless the monster entry specifically states that the monster attacks with both natural weapons and manufactured weapons, the monster is unable to use both at the same time.The FAQ also has a quote dictating when you're allowed to use both:What happens when creatures use their natural weapons as secondary attacks along with a manufactured weapon? For example, lizardfolk have two claws that also serve as hands. What happens when they wield a one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do they lose both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks with the weapon?

Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural weapons are free.
The example lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the “hand” that holds its weapon, although it does get to attack with the weapon itself. But, if it’s using the full attack action, it can use its other claw as a natural secondary attack (–5 to attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and can also bite as a natural secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk is using its normal full attack routine with the manufactured weapon attack substituted for one claw attack.Bolding mine. There are additional questions and answers after this that reinforce it.

Thus we're back to the question of what determines if a natural weapon is "free". The above example seems to indicate that a natural weapon is "free" if it doesn't compete for space with manufactured weapons. As above, the kolyarut's slam seems to be two-handed and is thus not "free", as it competes with the use of its longsword.
Ranger-99
12-10-06, 03:05 PM The FAQ also has a quote dictating when you're allowed to use both:Bolding mine. There are additional questions and answers after this that reinforce it.

My bad; I somehow missed that entry in the FAQ.

Odd, then. Contradictory information in the FAQ.

I guess I'll take the Monster Manual entry, then, as indicating the creature's normal attack routine, but not the complete list of possible routines.
RavenDrake
12-11-06, 05:11 PM It's not contradictary. A creature is normally allowed to combine natural weapon attacks and manufactured weapon attacks if they take the full attack action and the natural weapon is free. (of course decideing when a "slam" is free is tricky)

As for the kolyarut and 1.5x Strength modifier:

A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.

A creature who combines it's sole natural attack with a manufactured weapon attack routine treats that attack as though it were a secondary natural attack, like all natural weapons added to a manufactured weapon attack routine(it suffers the -5 attack penalty[unless modified by Multiweapon fighting] and .5x Strength modifier to damage). For an example, see the Minotaur in the SRD:

Attack: Greataxe +9 melee (3d6+6/×3) or gore +9 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/×3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2)

Hmm... now that's wierd. His gore(if used as a sole natural weapon) should be doing 1.5x Strength, not 1x. That casts some unusual shadows on my interpretation, then, dosen't it, though it's also messed up that they have the Kolyarut using it's slam attack like a manufactured weapon getting iterative attacks, so I have no idea what's going in there...
Ranger-99
12-11-06, 05:50 PM It's not contradictary. A creature is normally allowed to combine natural weapon attacks and manufactured weapon attacks if they take the full attack action and the natural weapon is free. (of course decideing when a "slam" is free is tricky)

I said it was contradictory because the lizardfolk FAQ entry discussed in NoldorForce's reply talks about the lizardfolk using a weapon plus 2 natural weapons (claw and bite).

First, I thought a monster who can use a natural weapon along with a manufactured weapon can only get 1 natural weapon attack. In the case of the lizardfolk, either a bite or a claw, but not both.

Second, the lizardfolk Monster Manual entry does not indicate that a lizardfolk can fight with a manufactured weapon plus a natural weapon.

This second point contradicts the FAQ entry I used an example in a previous post, in which the wording makes it sound like a monster can only add a natural attack if that monster can normally fight with a manufactured weapon plus a natural weapon. That is, implying that not every monster with a natural weapon and a hand-like appendage can fight with both at the same time, unless the entry specifically states that the monster uses both with a full attack.

Hmm... now that's wierd. His gore(if used as a sole natural weapon) should be doing 1.5x Strength, not 1x. That casts some unusual shadows on my interpretation, then, dosen't it, though it's also messed up that they have the Kolyarut using it's slam attack like a manufactured weapon getting iterative attacks, so I have no idea what's going in there...

Those must be mistakes that haven't been errata'd yet. Or so I think.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ranger-99 12-09-06, 03:13 AM	Let's take the kolyarut as an example. The Monster Manual indicates that, for melee attacks, a kolyarut uses either a longsword or a slam attack. It does not indicate that the kolyarut can or will fight with both at the same time, using the slam as a secondary natural weapon attack. Does this mean that the kolyarut cannot use the slam attack as a secondary natural weapon attack in addition to using the longsword? Or, does this merely mean that the kolyarut does not normally fight in that manner? More generically, can any monster with a natural weapon use that weapon as a secondary attack in addition to a weapon attack even if the stats do not indicate this manner of attacking?
runestar 12-09-06, 03:28 AM	Does this mean that the kolyarut cannot use the slam attack as a secondary natural weapon attack in addition to using the longsword? Yup. It only has a single slam attack(hence the 1.5 str bonus). I think this implies that it uses both its fists in that single slam. Thus using a longsword in one hand would preclude the use of said hand, thus preventing it from using its slam attack.
Ranger-99 12-09-06, 11:05 AM	Yup. It only has a single slam attack(hence the 1.5 str bonus). I think this implies that it uses both its fists in that single slam. Thus using a longsword in one hand would preclude the use of said hand, thus preventing it from using its slam attack. Thank you for the reply, Runestar. If that's true, what about the Balor as another example. It fights with either a longsword and a whip, or 2 slams. Clearly, each slam uses only 1 hand in this case since it gets a slam with each fist, and each slam adds only x1 Str bonus to damage. What if the balor drops its whip? Would it be able to make a longsword attack plus a slam attack?
draconic_swine 12-09-06, 11:51 AM	Does this mean that the kolyarut cannot use the slam attack as a secondary natural weapon attack in addition to using the longsword? Or, does this merely mean that the kolyarut does not normally fight in that manner? More generically, can any monster with a natural weapon use that weapon as a secondary attack in addition to a weapon attack even if the stats do not indicate this manner of attacking? I'm gonna say no. The MM is pretty explicit in the attack entries what a creature can and cannot do. Anything else would be a houserule (and probably warrant some bonus XP if you make a creature's full attack more deadly by adding attacks; not necessarily a CR bump, just some bonus XP). If that's true, what about the Balor as another example. It fights with either a longsword and a whip, or 2 slams. Clearly, each slam uses only 1 hand in this case since it gets a slam with each fist, and each slam adds only x1 Str bonus to damage. What if the balor drops its whip? Would it be able to make a longsword attack plus a slam attack? Again, RAW I don't see this as being possible, but this (subbing one attack for another) would be a more than reasonable thing to do.
Ranger-99 12-09-06, 11:58 AM	...Again, RAW I don't see this as being possible, but this (subbing one attack for another) would be a more than reasonable thing to do. Thank you for the reply, draconic. My question is answered, then. No secondary natural attacks for monsters unless the description specifically says so. Thanks, folks!
jaelis 12-09-06, 03:00 PM	I think draconic_swine's answer is too restrictive. I don't think the MM attack entries are meant in any way to be exhaustive, but rather to just reflect a creatures typical attack sequences. For instance, if you disarmed a balor of it's whip, you bet I'd give him a slam to make up for it. Here's some evidence in favor of that: - Elves are listed as longsword or longbow. Does that mean you can't arm an elf with anything else? - The vampire monk's entry lists unarmed strike +14/+14/+9 or kama +16/+16/+11. Is that supposed to mean the vampire can't interchange kama and unarmed strikes in a flurry? - No monster lists "grapple" in it's full attack entry. Does that mean that monster's can't initiate a grapple unless they have the Improved Grab feat? But your kolyarut example is particularly odd, because it is listed as getting an iterative slam attack. (It says slam +11/+6.) It gets 1-1/2 x Str, which would indeed indicate that it has only a single slam weapon. But then, the longsword gets 1-1/2 x Str as well. I guess the simplest interpretation is that it just has one slam weapon, the second slam is an error, and it wields it's longsword in two hands. It thus wouldn't combine a slam and sword attack in the same round.
draconic_swine 12-09-06, 10:46 PM	Here's some evidence in favor of that: - Elves are listed as longsword or longbow. Does that mean you can't arm an elf with anything else? If you're a stock level one elf warrior, well, I guess that does mean you're only able to use a longsword or longbow :P Seriously, you're probably right that my previous answer was too restrictive. Like I said previously, it's reasonable to allow the DM to switch out attacks for other ones (especially if they're manufactured weapons). But I still think that adding attacks (such as the natural attack in addition to the weapon attack in the OP) shouldn't be allowed. Increasing a creature's full attack increases its deadliness which increases its difficulty. Swapping yes, adding no.
jaelis 12-10-06, 10:45 AM	Sure, but you would assume that the MM doesn't ordinarily leave off attacks that a creature should have. And most of the time it doesn't. The kolyarut example is strange in several ways, but most monsters are pretty straightforward. I do agree you shouldn't simply add attacks to a creature, but almost always there's no reason to anyway. But it's true that slams are the annoying thing, because you generally don't know what part of the body is being used. That has always bugged me about warforged... they get one natural slam attack. Can they make it if armed with a 1H weapon? What about a 2H weapon? (letting go of a weapon is a free action, remember!) What about a 1H weapon and buckler? What if they are a monk? If they make the slam with a fist, why don't they get two if unarmed? Not that these questions are hard to answer (personally, I say treat it just like a spiked gauntlet in terms of when you can attack with it), but still.
Derren S. 12-10-06, 10:48 AM	Monsters can always use natural attacks as secondary attacks together with a normal weapon as long as the natural weapon is "free". Look in the FAQ for that.
jaelis 12-10-06, 12:04 PM	Yeah, but it's not always clear when the weapon is "free". That's the issue.
Ranger-99 12-10-06, 01:22 PM	Monsters can always use natural attacks as secondary attacks together with a normal weapon as long as the natural weapon is "free". Look in the FAQ for that. I looked in the FAQ, and actually found evidence contrary to what you say, Derren. Below is the relevant part of an answer to a question about centaur monks in the Main FAQ that is dated 11/22/06: --- If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). --- Note the bolded text. That indicates to me that unless the monster entry specifically states that the monster attacks with both natural weapons and manufactured weapons, the monster is unable to use both at the same time. But it's true that slams are the annoying thing, because you generally don't know what part of the body is being used. A slam is made with an arm or similar appendage. According to the SRD: --- The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). --- Admittedly, the direct definition of Slam is a bit more vague: --- Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. --- Still, I think the first quote makes it pretty clear.
NoldorForce 12-10-06, 02:17 PM	I looked in the FAQ, and actually found evidence contrary to what you say, Derren. Below is the relevant part of an answer to a question about centaur monks in the Main FAQ that is dated 11/22/06: --- If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). --- Note the bolded text. That indicates to me that unless the monster entry specifically states that the monster attacks with both natural weapons and manufactured weapons, the monster is unable to use both at the same time.The FAQ also has a quote dictating when you're allowed to use both:What happens when creatures use their natural weapons as secondary attacks along with a manufactured weapon? For example, lizardfolk have two claws that also serve as hands. What happens when they wield a one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do they lose both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks with the weapon? Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural weapons are free. The example lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the “hand” that holds its weapon, although it does get to attack with the weapon itself. But, if it’s using the full attack action, it can use its other claw as a natural secondary attack (–5 to attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and can also bite as a natural secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk is using its normal full attack routine with the manufactured weapon attack substituted for one claw attack.Bolding mine. There are additional questions and answers after this that reinforce it. Thus we're back to the question of what determines if a natural weapon is "free". The above example seems to indicate that a natural weapon is "free" if it doesn't compete for space with manufactured weapons. As above, the kolyarut's slam seems to be two-handed and is thus not "free", as it competes with the use of its longsword.
Ranger-99 12-10-06, 03:05 PM	The FAQ also has a quote dictating when you're allowed to use both:Bolding mine. There are additional questions and answers after this that reinforce it. My bad; I somehow missed that entry in the FAQ. Odd, then. Contradictory information in the FAQ. I guess I'll take the Monster Manual entry, then, as indicating the creature's normal attack routine, but not the complete list of possible routines.
RavenDrake 12-11-06, 05:11 PM	It's not contradictary. A creature is normally allowed to combine natural weapon attacks and manufactured weapon attacks if they take the full attack action and the natural weapon is free. (of course decideing when a "slam" is free is tricky) As for the kolyarut and 1.5x Strength modifier: A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses. A creature who combines it's sole natural attack with a manufactured weapon attack routine treats that attack as though it were a secondary natural attack, like all natural weapons added to a manufactured weapon attack routine(it suffers the -5 attack penalty[unless modified by Multiweapon fighting] and .5x Strength modifier to damage). For an example, see the Minotaur in the SRD: Attack: Greataxe +9 melee (3d6+6/×3) or gore +9 melee (1d8+4) Full Attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/×3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2) Hmm... now that's wierd. His gore(if used as a sole natural weapon) should be doing 1.5x Strength, not 1x. That casts some unusual shadows on my interpretation, then, dosen't it, though it's also messed up that they have the Kolyarut using it's slam attack like a manufactured weapon getting iterative attacks, so I have no idea what's going in there...
Ranger-99 12-11-06, 05:50 PM	It's not contradictary. A creature is normally allowed to combine natural weapon attacks and manufactured weapon attacks if they take the full attack action and the natural weapon is free. (of course decideing when a "slam" is free is tricky) I said it was contradictory because the lizardfolk FAQ entry discussed in NoldorForce's reply talks about the lizardfolk using a weapon plus 2 natural weapons (claw and bite). First, I thought a monster who can use a natural weapon along with a manufactured weapon can only get 1 natural weapon attack. In the case of the lizardfolk, either a bite or a claw, but not both. Second, the lizardfolk Monster Manual entry does not indicate that a lizardfolk can fight with a manufactured weapon plus a natural weapon. This second point contradicts the FAQ entry I used an example in a previous post, in which the wording makes it sound like a monster can only add a natural attack if that monster can normally fight with a manufactured weapon plus a natural weapon. That is, implying that not every monster with a natural weapon and a hand-like appendage can fight with both at the same time, unless the entry specifically states that the monster uses both with a full attack. Hmm... now that's wierd. His gore(if used as a sole natural weapon) should be doing 1.5x Strength, not 1x. That casts some unusual shadows on my interpretation, then, dosen't it, though it's also messed up that they have the Kolyarut using it's slam attack like a manufactured weapon getting iterative attacks, so I have no idea what's going in there... Those must be mistakes that haven't been errata'd yet. Or so I think.