Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paul9000 11-09-05, 03:17 PM	If you were given a long bow or even a great bow and had an 18 strength, what is the maximum damage you could do using skills/feats, class abilities or special non magic arrows with a bow? With a sword I can do all sorts of things like using power attack, skirmish, or sneak attack. What is available for sharp shooters? Also what does everyone think of the arcane archer prestige class? Paul
Sluagh 11-09-05, 03:42 PM	Ranged sneak attack is probably the easiest way to pile on damage.
elecgraystone 11-09-05, 03:48 PM	Targetteer12/rogue8 BAB=18 vital aim plunging shot rapid shot improved rapid shot point blank arrow swarm weapon focus gt. weapon focus weapon spec. gr. weapon spec staggering strike 1 extra feat not taken i'll go with a 20 dex. att=21/21/21/16/11/6 damage/arrow=D8+5d6 (or 5d8 on evil)+6
Keenath 11-09-05, 04:10 PM	Also what does everyone think of the arcane archer prestige class?Arcane Archer is somewhat weak, but it's an easy fix. For the Imbue Arrow ability, add that you can imbue touch spells, rays, and targetted spells as well as area effects, with the limitation that if you do so, only the creature or object struck takes the effect of the spell. For example, you could imbue Slow, which normally targets 1 creature per level, but it would only work on the one you hit, and leave the rest of his group alone. Also, the arrow's damage applies before the spell effect goes off. This gives a mild power boost, a major utility boost, and provides more purpose to the weak spellcasting (since almost everyone who gets into AA is going to be no more than a 5th level wizard, and gets no caster level improvement). The number of spells of 3rd level and below that are worth using in the current Imbue Arrow scheme is very small; most of the area effects are not worth shooting, due to already being long range, or are not particularly useful if you do (such as alarm).
00_Whupass 11-09-05, 04:33 PM	Targetteer12/rogue8What the heck is a targeteer, and where did you find it? I've a couple of ranged character Ideas I've been toying around with: The scout/OotBI, has good synergy both classes require you to forgo the full attack to take advantage of there primary class feature. with Scout 10/OotBI 10 you could do 6d8+3d6+4 with a mighty(+4) composite longbow, for an average of 37 damage, and a range of 13-70. I don't think you can combine the OotBI's standard action for Ranged Precision and the Standard Action for Greater Manyshot (from the XPH) however if you could that would double this for an average of 76, range of 26-140. I've also been toying around with the Idea of a halfling thrower. Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 1/Invisible blade 5/Whisperknife 6/Master Thrower 4, not quite in that order. The master throwers palm throw, coupled with quickdraw, rapid shot, and all three TWF feats nets you an awsome 16 thrown daggers per round in the form of 8 attacks each for 2d3, with improved initiative and a 24 dex (18 base +2 racial +4 from level) you have a +11 to initiative greatly incresing the likelihood that you can catch you opponents flat-footed, and dish out 8 attacks for 2d3+6d6, average of 22 per attack, range of 8-42, which in a full attack means average 176, range 64-336. Of course this is a very feat intesive build, but that is aided by the bonus TWF from ranger, Quickdraw from master thrower, Rapid shot from whisper knife and two fighter feats. Its also behind the power curve until the mid to high teen levels, due to small sized weapons and not yet having the feats to really crank up the number of attacks, but its something to think about. Edit: Also for throwers there is the Power attack, Brutal Throw, Power Throw feat tree that allows you to use Str for attack rolls with thrown weapons and use power attack with thrown weapons, wouldn't work for my thrower build but it is a way to really increase damage.
paul9000 11-09-05, 04:36 PM	Where is the Targetteer listed?
elecgraystone 11-09-05, 04:38 PM	Where is the Targetteer listed? Dragon 310, specialist fighters.
Cadfan 11-09-05, 05:05 PM	There's a few other ways to boost damage, even with a generic ranger base. With rapid shot, and improved rapid shot, you're basically shooting with an extra attack at your top base attack bonus. Extra attacks makes extra damage. Since you have range, and aren't limited to merely what you can reach, you can stand anywhere on the battlefield and shoot at almost anyone you choose. This means you can take your shots at someone with low armor class (enemy spellcasters), hit more often than the fighter in melee with an enemy melee character with a correspondingly high AC, and more hits makes extra damage. Individual arrows aren't usually very strong. But, the ability to stand still, and take a full round attack at range against the lowest armor class amongst the enemy, can give you a lot more hits per round, and much higher damage than you would otherwise have.
ShinAkuma2 11-09-05, 05:59 PM	All I know, is that I regularly play with two archers, both of which seem to get a kill a turn unless we fight something with large amounts of HP and/or DR.
tc12 11-09-05, 06:43 PM	I'd have to agree with the sentiment of others here that an archer doesn't *need* to have the same damage per hit as a melee fighter (or barb, etc). The ability to move and still get one shot off with some additional abiliity by class getting skirmish (scout), ranged precision (OoBI), manyshot (Ranger or other) -- is huge. Means you're not taking damage most rounds like the melee folks are. And you can generally choose from multiple targets, such as the spellcaster no one else can get to. Multiclass with rogue and surprize is vicious with less risk to you than a melee sneak. After all, to get quietly into position the stealthy types had to leave the fighters behind. Ranged sneak and if your rapid shot surprise round with sneak damage doesn't drop your target, then fall back to where the rest of your party is waiting to engage them at. Any way you go about it, death at a distance means less damage to you. So when things get bad, Archers are more likely than melee fighters to live to see another day. TC
Keenath 11-10-05, 12:23 AM	OBI is frankly not worth taking. A multi-arrow full attack is just barely balanced against an OBI's Ranged Precision -- adding magical enhancement makes the multi-arrow a better choice, and Rapid Shot is just about balanced (accuracy for damage) -- but if you slap haste on, the multi-arrow build deals a LOT more damage, and the haste doesn't even help the OBI who's making single shots anyway. OBI needs an overhaul before it's worth using, unless you're an archer with 8 Strength (and how often does that happen?) or some other strange situation.
tarkin 11-10-05, 10:29 AM	I think you are playing OBI incorrectly. They are an effective Prestige Class that does not have the weakensses you imply.
DragonDeadite 11-10-05, 11:37 AM	I have a player in my group who's going with the OotBI and is doing it VERY well. You've just got to remember that the point of the bonus damage (Ranged Precision??) is that it allows you to move and STILL do the bonus damage. Yes, if you're standing still you unload as much as you can, but if your party is having to move and fight then you're not going to be loosing that much damage-dealing abilities. It's a good class and he's having a blast with it! BTW: Arcane Archer... neh... I've tried doing a few different builds for it and I don't really see it being usefull until you're about level 15 or so and THEN starting taking levels in it. You need to have the decent spells from the magic user class so you might as well just keep going mage until you fill the requirements and then do a back and forth so you keep getting better with your mage.
Puca 11-10-05, 12:15 PM	I have a player in my group who's going with the OotBI and is doing it VERY well. You've just got to remember that the point of the bonus damage (Ranged Precision??) is that it allows you to move and STILL do the bonus damage. Yes, if you're standing still you unload as much as you can, but if your party is having to move and fight then you're not going to be loosing that much damage-dealing abilities. It's a good class and he's having a blast with it!Also look at the potential of this with something like Shot on the Run and an enhancement to speed. It is a tactical difference from standing still and making a full attack, which the OoBI can still do. what is the maximum damage you could do using skills/feats, class abilities or special non magic arrows with a bow? I understand your motivation for this limit, but in actual games these of course exist, and Id just like to point out the potential here. Lets say your fighter wants a magic longsword and has about 20,000 gp to spend. He can afford a +3 weapon, or a +2 weapon with something like a Flaming property, which is an extra 1d6 damage. For the same 20,000, and archer could get a +1 bow with the Flaming property and 50 +1 arrows with the Shocking property, doing an additional 2d6 damage per hit, and he still has over 3000 left over. Look at the effect when the weapons are +5 or +6 instead of +2 or 3 and the cost diference is staggering. You can stack a lot of those additional enhancements by having a bow of one type and arrows of another, cheaper than on a sword and you can have multiple arrow types available for diferent situations. Our partys OoBI has the (I think it is called) Exit Wound property on her bow, and then a cornucopia of differing arrows, silver Holy, cold iron Holy, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Seeking, etc. Shes prepared for damn near anything, and can always get through DR or take advantage of an energy vulnerability and she can do it all without having to switch weapons. In fact, she can overcome the DR of a Devil and Demon and a golem in the same round during full attack.
Zherog 11-10-05, 03:59 PM	I think you are playing OBI incorrectly. They are an effective Prestige Class that does not have the weakensses you imply. No, he's correct. The OBI's precision damage ability is extremely weak. It's so weak, grandmothers confined to wheelchairs regularly beat it up and take away it's lunch money.
paul9000 11-10-05, 04:01 PM	I agree that total damage from the arrows can stack up from several attacks but what I was concerned about was a single attacks damage. Once the enemy has a DR10, well it becomes a lot harder to hurt the enemy for a ranged attacker. If he also has some form of energy resistance then it becomes even harder. A melee weapon still has power attack, skirmish and sneak attacks to compensate for DR. How much can be done with a single arrow?
Puca 11-10-05, 04:16 PM	An OoBI (with a bow strength-rated to 20 and having the Precice Shot feat) who attacks within 30 feet and gets his 3d8 precision damage will average 24 points of damage with a single arrow and do a minimum of 10. He might not overcome DR, but he will probably get something.
woodwalker 11-10-05, 04:28 PM	you could crossclass rogue and scout at low level. you move 10 feet and fire on a flatfooted opponent for plus 2d6 dammage (assuming that you are rogue1/scout1). thats just a low level fix, though.
RisingZan 11-11-05, 06:55 PM	I agree that total damage from the arrows can stack up from several attacks but what I was concerned about was a single attacks damage. Once the enemy has a DR10, well it becomes a lot harder to hurt the enemy for a ranged attacker. If he also has some form of energy resistance then it becomes even harder. A melee weapon still has power attack, skirmish and sneak attacks to compensate for DR. How much can be done with a single arrow? Well this depends on the DR type. If its DR magic, get a magic bow. If its DR/silver or DR/Cold Iron, arrows of those types are fairly cheap. For alignment DRs, hopefully a party cleric can help handle that. One of the parties I'm in currently has a fallen elven Paladin (trying to atone) along as an NPC. He's something like level 17 with Precise shot, Rapid shot, Point Blank Shot, etc as well as Zen Archery I think. He wields a +2 Mighty +5 Composite LongBow and seems to do about 20 a shot. I'll try to take a look at the character sheet next time I get a chance and figure out exactly what he has, as he's maxed out for archery.
Rhomphaia 11-11-05, 08:12 PM	Everyone here is talking classes and prestige classes. There is something much easier. Might Composite (+4) Longbow. The original poster said the example character had an 18 Str, so he would get to use all of it with the longbow (1d8+4 damage, not bad). And if the bow is masterowkred, it can be enchanted. This works for any character, regardless of class. It also deals the same damage over and over again with rapid Shot, Manyshot or any of those other feats. Bottom line is Better Bow = Better Damage.
allenchan 11-11-05, 08:19 PM	Imo, a fighter/justice of weald and woe (stacks w/fighter for weapon spec. feats) is one of the best choices. A melee weapon still has power attack, skirmish and sneak attacks to compensate for DR. However, note nothing precludes ranged weapons from having skirmish or sneak attacks, and the peerless archer prc allows power attacking w/bow. Actually, Scout is a very solid choice with the Greater Manyshot feat.
savant_warlord13 11-11-05, 09:34 PM	Oh goody! This gives me a chance to brag about my character! His large masterwork Great Crossbow deals 3d8 points of damage, although it is exotic
Zetakya 11-11-05, 11:33 PM	Don't neglect Ranger in all of this. Favoured Enemy is very deadly when used with the Full Attack action, which Archers tend to get to use much more than melee combatants. The spells can be handy as well... Longstrider for enhanced skirmishing ability, Cat's Grace for 10% more accuracy and AC.
Atar 11-12-05, 01:57 AM	I'm surprised noone has mentioned the deepwood sniper yet. With that you have a x5 crit multiplier at PrC level 7 and always keen arrows and some other goodness. :D
legophreak 11-12-05, 07:31 AM	I'm surprised noone has mentioned the deepwood sniper yet. With that you have a x5 crit multiplier at PrC level 7 and always keen arrows and some other goodness. :D Isn't Deepwood Sniper a 3.0 prestige, or did it make the 3.5 cut?
JoshuaWilhoyte 11-12-05, 11:12 AM	Most Archer builds I've seen always end up with Weapon Focus (likely for those first few levels of Deepwood Sniper). There's a feat in the Draconomicon that lets you ignore the first five points of DR for the weapon you have Weapon Focus in. That helps the archer versus unexpected DRs and annoying ones like 5/Bludgeoning or Slashing (cursed skeletons or zombies). And it's certainly easier to use your kickass bows with a variety of Cold Iron, Silver, Byeshk, etc. arrow than it is to have a kickass Silver Longsword, kickass Cold Iron Warhammer and kickass Byeshk Greatsword. I believe that technically any 3.0 Prestige Class that hasn't been re-printed is (according to the update documentation from WotC when 3.5 was released) considered to still be applicable for 3.5. Not everyone will still allow 3.0 PrCs, but many will.
Telathidar_Mhaelin 11-12-05, 11:15 AM	shouldn't this be on the Character optimization boards?
Lord Welkerfan 11-12-05, 09:32 PM	When in doubt, most every arch-type has a corresponding and generally accepted build on the CO boards. KSB Snow Owl's Archer Builds (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183604) Highest damage with magical arrows: 750
zackforester 11-16-05, 11:50 PM	My DM and I are having a rules issue. I've waded through all the errata and looked through all the books I could find and he still claims that the highest bonuses you can get are +4 STR on a Longbow and +2 STR on a Shortbow. I've showed him the PhB excerpts and even given him examples from Complete Warrior. Is there anywhere I can go to prove that it is possible to craft bows with higher STR ratings than this?
Sunrider 11-17-05, 01:27 AM	Look at the stats for the Storm Giant. Composite longbow, +14 Str bonus. They aren't born with the bows, so they must have crafted them themselves, or bought them from someone else who crafted them.
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 01:33 AM	I've also been toying around with the Idea of a halfling thrower. Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 1/Invisible blade 5/Whisperknife 6/Master Thrower 4, not quite in that order. Do you realize with all those classes you will not only never go up any levels but it take forever (multiclass penalites)
Sunrider 11-17-05, 01:48 AM	Do you realize with all those classes you will not only never go up any levels but it take forever (multiclass penalites) Not true. Rogue is the favoured class for halflings, so it doesn't count. Invisible Blade, Whisperknife and Master Thrower are prestige classes, so they don't count either. This leaves Fighter and Ranger - since they are within one level of each other, there is no XP penalty.
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 01:59 AM	where does it state that prestige classes dont count.. phb 59 adding a second class is what you are doing... Prestige is just like a class but it has rules and requirements to have before you can gain 1 lvl in it..
allenchan 11-17-05, 02:16 AM	where does it state that prestige classes dont count.. phb 59 adding a second class is what you are doing... Prestige is just like a class but it has rules and requirements to have before you can gain 1 lvl in it.. You are most likely the only person to use that rule. Any time on the boards at all you will realize that nobody plays by that. The rule was in the 3.0 book, but wotc forget it in 3.5, however, they have publicly stated that it is still true they dont count towards xp penalties.
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 03:00 AM	that phb listing is the 3.5 edition.. and it talks about penalties in 3.5 so I have no idea what you are talking about...
Sunrider 11-17-05, 03:09 AM	SRD link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm "Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing."
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 03:27 AM	I agree to a point... With most prestige classes there is no going back.. So in a sense he isnt a multiclass character he involved into a new class.. But if you bounce from prestige to base then I would impose the multi-class penalties. Or even from one prestige to another prestige and want to go back to the original prestige. If you are Paladin of X and then move to Knight of Chalice X and want to go back to paladin for X+1 thats still okay since 1 you can do that with the KoC (normally leveling paladin you cant come back) and 2 you only have 1 other class.. But If you are Fighter X, Rogue Y, Assassin Z you have to many classes and if you want to go back to fighter or rogue I would have to impose the penalty (the actual spirit of the rule)
Sunrider 11-17-05, 03:46 AM	In that case you are playing by house-rules, and shouldn't use them as a basis by which to judge other characters. 3rd edition is all about multiclassing and customisation - it's like 2nd edition kits, only much more flexible. A multiclass fighter/cleric of Bane doesn't identify himself as a part-time warrior, part-time priest with a penchant for tyranny. He identifies himself as an unholy warrior, who happens to have some abilities from each class. A Ranger 2/Fighter 18 with the Able Learner feat and maxed out stealth/spotting.survival skills doesn't identify herself as such. She may identify herself as a guerilla warrior, a wilderness combat specialist or a special-forces type soldier, but not simply as a fighter/ranger. A typical thieves guild will consist largely of commoners, experts and warriors, not rogues. Base class names, as well as most prestige-class names, have no meaning beyond the character sheet - they are just game mechanics by which a particular character concept can be realised. It's what the character identifies as, and how he or she functions, that really matters, regardless of how many classes appear on the character sheet.
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 03:53 AM	You said house-rule But if you are able to take the prestige class and you do you stay in that.. You dont go back or take up another.. If anything it hasnt been address to state one way or the other.. But I would go with the spirit of what should happen till there is a ruling...
allenchan 11-17-05, 03:57 AM	You said house-rule But if you are able to take the prestige class and you do you stay in that.. You dont go back or take up another.. If anything it hasnt been address to state one way or the other.. But I would go with the spirit of what should happen till there is a ruling... What are you going off about? There is nothing that prevents characters from having multiple prestige classes, and nothing preventing (besides a DM's house rule) of dipping prestige classes. Seriously, a lot of times taking all 10 levels in a PrC makes a character drasticly weaker then had they taken something else, and considering the point of 3.x is all about customization, etc, I see no reason to go out of my way to penalize creative PCs.
Sunrider 11-17-05, 04:18 AM	A PrC isn't a career - it is simply a set of game mechanics defining a narrower, more specialised field, with its own special abilities and skill sets, than a base class. A fighter/blackguard/duellist could be a maurauding pirate, a nimble melee combatant in the service of an evil deity or many other things - he or she, however, is probably not someone who started off training as a melee fighter, then became evil and decided to become a demon's servant, then decided to try to emulate Zorro. The player and the backstory defines the character - classes, skills and feats merely provide a means to express the character's abilities in terms of game mechanics.
Zherog 11-17-05, 12:47 PM	So there's a few points of contention here. The first one is whether Prestige Classes invoke the multiclassing penalty rules. As Allenchan said, in the 3.0 DMG it clearly stated that PrCs did not count for this. When the upgraded the DMG to 3.5, they accidentally cut this one sentence. From the FAQ: In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels in a prestige class never caused you to pay the experience penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on prestige classes in the new Dungeon Master’s Guide no longer mentions that you don’t suffer an experience penalty for having levels in a prestige class. Is this a change or an error? It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give you an experience penalty. So that should resolve that problem. The second point of contention is whether or not a player can "dip" levels from a prestige class, and take multiple prestige classes in this way. This is completely valid - just like taking one level of each base class is valid. I've seen plenty of DM's - on this and other boards - who houserule otherwise; but it's just that -- a house rule.
kenoza 12-17-05, 02:08 AM	not sure if anyone stated this but the peerless archer prc has the power shot ability works just like power attack but for bows so anyone with a high bab in ranged weapons could do some real damage
Dev Vim 12-17-05, 02:52 AM	order of the bow initiate 1D8 Extra damage every other level. BIG damage