Can anyone beat this critt range? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can anyone beat this critt range? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Llasnad
08-06-05, 05:29 AM This is 3.0 rules, i have never used nor do I like 3.5 rules. But if you can beat this using 3.5 go right ahead.

Star with a Falchion
Get Improved Critt: Falchion
Become a Weapon Master (Kensai) from the oriental adventure book and get to lvl 7, aquiring Ki Critical.
Keen the Weapon.

You get a 2d4 damage weapon, wielded in two hands, that was a x2 critt, a x3 critt using the Increased multiplyer ability of the Kensai, and a critt range of 10-20. starts 18-20, +3 from imp critt, +3 from keen, +2 from Ki Critt.

And that only requires you to get it to +3 magical. Just imagine what else you could do with this puppy.
peanut35
08-06-05, 10:00 AM 3.5 no longer allows crit multipliers to stack
rbrt_Spade
08-06-05, 10:43 AM the most ive gotten is the 15-20
a lot of dms house rule that keen + crit stack
but i play that it stacks
Zitchas
08-06-05, 11:23 AM Some rule that it stacks, some that it doesn't. I've seen a few that actually make things more complicated: It's a decreasing scale of effect. If your crit range is going up by 3 for each of those, they'd rule you get full effect from the first, then only +2 from the second, and only +1 from the third (and any subsequent ones).

Personally, I dislike the idea of weapons so sharp that they crit on such a massive scale. That's what vorpal weapons should be, honestly, not keen.
Surreal
08-06-05, 02:05 PM Look up the Disciple of Dispater from BoVD for more crit goodness.
Vaelan
08-06-05, 10:25 PM If we're going to go with 3.0 rules...

Bladed Gauntlets had a threat range of 17-20.

Add in Disciple of Dispater and triple the threat range.
Add in Improved Critical to double the threat range.
Add in Kensai (known as Weapon Master in Sword & Fist) to add two to the threat range.

The threat range comes out to 3-20. However, it is not possible to get all of this before epic levels.
Alamar Meric
08-06-05, 10:32 PM Just a thought...

I remember when my DM made a percentile chart and any time that a natural "20" was rolled he would have us role percentile dice and look up the effect. The scary part is that it worked in reverse. That was with the old 2nd edition (way back when).

It was more random, but at least not every combat was just a math problem. It made it possible for a kobold with a crossbow to do some pretty serious damage on a lucky shot (and scared the snot out of us players).

What are some thoughts on the matter? I don't think a crit system like the Rolemaster series is quite called for, but maybe something a little more interesting than simple multiplication?

-Alamar
kalstrand
08-07-05, 02:24 PM I had a DM use something similar in a 2E game. We were mid-level fighting a bunch of ordinary kobolds but there were prolly 100 or more. They could only hit on a 20. The end result was a TPK because with the sheer number they hit enough crits to eliminate us before we could kill them all.

edit: Most of the crit results were instant death or near enough that a single crit was enough to take a member out of the fight.
wonlee76
08-07-05, 02:35 PM If we're going to go with 3.0 rules...

Bladed Gauntlets had a threat range of 17-20.

Add in Disciple of Dispater and triple the threat range.
Add in Improved Critical to double the threat range.
Add in Kensai (known as Weapon Master in Sword & Fist) to add two to the threat range.

The threat range comes out to 3-20. However, it is not possible to get all of this before epic levels.

I think the Bladed Gauntlet got errataed to 18-20. Same threat range as a rapier.
Nuntius128
08-07-05, 02:47 PM This is 3.0 rules, i have never used nor do I like 3.5 rules. But if you can beat this using 3.5 go right ahead.

Oh noes... IRON GOLEMS!! And zombies!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
08-10-05, 07:57 PM It's possible to get a 1-20 crit range in 3.0. Take the Nimblewright from MMII, which had a 11-20 crit range on its rapier-hands in 3.0, give it a few levels of fighter, and take Improved Critical (rapier-hand). Viola! 1-20 crit range.
Galdor_Ester
08-10-05, 08:10 PM I had a DM use something similar in a 2E game. We were mid-level fighting a bunch of ordinary kobolds but there were prolly 100 or more. They could only hit on a 20. The end result was a TPK because with the sheer number they hit enough crits to eliminate us before we could kill them all.

edit: Most of the crit results were instant death or near enough that a single crit was enough to take a member out of the fight.

One thing to consider is to break up the hit points by body part (arms, legs, head, chest and abdomen) and use a percentile to determine the body part hit when a critical is scored. It allows a body part to be taken out by doing more damage than that part has. I have used this in the past to great effect as an alternate critical system. Since the majority of hits will land on the arms and legs it allows fun in game effects (cutting off a hand like in the books) while still allowing the NPC or character to still function on some level. You can break it down even further to upper, lower leg/arm, and front/back chest abdomen for the visual description if you want as well. That way a dagger that criticals has less chance of doing massive damage just as it does against a large hp pool.

Just realized I should have included an example:

Fighter with 100 hit points

Percentile roll Body Part Hit Hit points Calculation
01-10 Head 15 15%
11-15 left arm, upper 05 5%
16-20 left arm, lower 05 5%
21-25 right arm, upper 05 5%
26-30 right arm, lower 05 5%
31-40 Chest, front 20 20%
41-50 Chest, back 20 20%
51-60 Abdomen, Front 10 10%
61-70 Abdomen, Back 10 10%
71-78 Left Leg, upper 10 10%
79-86 Left Leg, lower 10 10%
87-93 Right Leg, upper 05 5%
94-00 Right Leg, lower 05 5%

This is based loosly on the burn percentages that each body part is assigned. Modified slightly based on the durability of a specific body part. Since each part is a basic percentage of the total HP it is what it takes to overcome that body part. Reducing a body part to 0 makes it useless. It is too cut up or banged up to work anymore. Doing more than twice the damage cleaves it off or crushes it off, etc. Any body part cut off causes a wound effect as well.
Arishem
08-11-05, 11:09 AM I had a DM use something similar in a 2E game. We were mid-level fighting a bunch of ordinary kobolds but there were prolly 100 or more. They could only hit on a 20. The end result was a TPK because with the sheer number they hit enough crits to eliminate us before we could kill them all.

edit: Most of the crit results were instant death or near enough that a single crit was enough to take a member out of the fight.

Just becasue of this kind of thing i added in a house rule when i DM'ed that if a hit requires a 20 to hit the opponent, it simply hits them and doesn't crit. All of my players agree's they wanted that rule after a simular horde of small creatures 10 lvls below them actually killing a few people from crit damage
Jaaz
08-11-05, 11:24 AM Under 3.0, why not forego the range and go for moderate range and insane crit damage? Take all the above crit expanders, but apply them to a monkey-gripped scythe. (2d6 for large version) The weapon master's abilities and the Kensai, expand it's crit to 15-20/x5 (10d6+5*(added points))! Not to mention the whole power attack/leap attack cheese.
Enterik
08-11-05, 12:11 PM If we're going to go with 3.0 rules...

Bladed Gauntlets had a threat range of 17-20.

Add in Disciple of Dispater and triple the threat range.
Add in Improved Critical to double the threat range.
Add in Kensai (known as Weapon Master in Sword & Fist) to add two to the threat range.

The threat range comes out to 3-20. However, it is not possible to get all of this before epic levels.

Better add some power critical feats as well, so that you can follow through on all that extra threat...
Thamius
08-12-05, 05:27 PM Just becasue of this kind of thing i added in a house rule when i DM'ed that if a hit requires a 20 to hit the opponent, it simply hits them and doesn't crit. All of my players agree's they wanted that rule after a simular horde of small creatures 10 lvls below them actually killing a few people from crit damage

Just rolling a 20 is not an automatic crit, of course, a kobold would have to roll two 20's in a row in order to threaten and then confirm a critical hit. Given that it's a 1-in-400 chance of any single attack turning into an actual crit I think the odds are still broadly in favor of the characters!
LichKnight
08-12-05, 05:40 PM This doesn't improve the crit range but get the power critical feet (i think the complete warrior) and get +4 to conferm the crit.
mvincent
08-12-05, 08:04 PM +4 to conferm the crit.Bless Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SpellsA-B.rtf) can work well here also:
"all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit"

And as long as you're racking up multiples, add spirited charge (x2), or deadly charge (x3, 3.0 prc cavalier)

And you can increase the base damage with truestrike & power attack (I've had this used on me with the 10-20 crit range when a party member got dominated). But then, WotC nerfed this combo exactly because of this sort of thing.
Jammin8915
08-12-05, 08:43 PM keen doubles the critical threat range (+2 MAX), improved critical also doubles critical threat (+2 MAX). dont know where you got the +3 from.
Merestil Haye
08-12-05, 09:14 PM keen doubles the critical threat range (+2 MAX), improved critical also doubles critical threat (+2 MAX). dont know where you got the +3 from.I'm not sure what you mean by this statement.

If you mean that expanded threat ranges are found on weapons that have a x2 multiplier, that is generally true as a design rule. It's not a rule of the game though.

If you mean that the feat or the magic weapon ability increase the threat range by two points, then no. A weapon with an 18-20 threat range that is Keened possesses a 15-20 threat range. Similarly Improved Critical. neither have any text about expanding the threat range by a maximum of 2 points.

While I think about it, the bladed gauntlet had its threat range reduced to 19-20 / *2 by errata to Sword and Fist, so you'll wind up with much less than 3-20, sorry.

(Kalstrand, I saw your post only after drafting this. What you get for skimming. I checked the errata file and it is 19-20.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llasnad 08-06-05, 05:29 AM	This is 3.0 rules, i have never used nor do I like 3.5 rules. But if you can beat this using 3.5 go right ahead. Star with a Falchion Get Improved Critt: Falchion Become a Weapon Master (Kensai) from the oriental adventure book and get to lvl 7, aquiring Ki Critical. Keen the Weapon. You get a 2d4 damage weapon, wielded in two hands, that was a x2 critt, a x3 critt using the Increased multiplyer ability of the Kensai, and a critt range of 10-20. starts 18-20, +3 from imp critt, +3 from keen, +2 from Ki Critt. And that only requires you to get it to +3 magical. Just imagine what else you could do with this puppy.
peanut35 08-06-05, 10:00 AM	3.5 no longer allows crit multipliers to stack
rbrt_Spade 08-06-05, 10:43 AM	the most ive gotten is the 15-20 a lot of dms house rule that keen + crit stack but i play that it stacks
Zitchas 08-06-05, 11:23 AM	Some rule that it stacks, some that it doesn't. I've seen a few that actually make things more complicated: It's a decreasing scale of effect. If your crit range is going up by 3 for each of those, they'd rule you get full effect from the first, then only +2 from the second, and only +1 from the third (and any subsequent ones). Personally, I dislike the idea of weapons so sharp that they crit on such a massive scale. That's what vorpal weapons should be, honestly, not keen.
Surreal 08-06-05, 02:05 PM	Look up the Disciple of Dispater from BoVD for more crit goodness.
Vaelan 08-06-05, 10:25 PM	If we're going to go with 3.0 rules... Bladed Gauntlets had a threat range of 17-20. Add in Disciple of Dispater and triple the threat range. Add in Improved Critical to double the threat range. Add in Kensai (known as Weapon Master in Sword & Fist) to add two to the threat range. The threat range comes out to 3-20. However, it is not possible to get all of this before epic levels.
Alamar Meric 08-06-05, 10:32 PM	Just a thought... I remember when my DM made a percentile chart and any time that a natural "20" was rolled he would have us role percentile dice and look up the effect. The scary part is that it worked in reverse. That was with the old 2nd edition (way back when). It was more random, but at least not every combat was just a math problem. It made it possible for a kobold with a crossbow to do some pretty serious damage on a lucky shot (and scared the snot out of us players). What are some thoughts on the matter? I don't think a crit system like the Rolemaster series is quite called for, but maybe something a little more interesting than simple multiplication? -Alamar
kalstrand 08-07-05, 02:24 PM	I had a DM use something similar in a 2E game. We were mid-level fighting a bunch of ordinary kobolds but there were prolly 100 or more. They could only hit on a 20. The end result was a TPK because with the sheer number they hit enough crits to eliminate us before we could kill them all. edit: Most of the crit results were instant death or near enough that a single crit was enough to take a member out of the fight.
wonlee76 08-07-05, 02:35 PM	If we're going to go with 3.0 rules... Bladed Gauntlets had a threat range of 17-20. Add in Disciple of Dispater and triple the threat range. Add in Improved Critical to double the threat range. Add in Kensai (known as Weapon Master in Sword & Fist) to add two to the threat range. The threat range comes out to 3-20. However, it is not possible to get all of this before epic levels. I think the Bladed Gauntlet got errataed to 18-20. Same threat range as a rapier.
Nuntius128 08-07-05, 02:47 PM	This is 3.0 rules, i have never used nor do I like 3.5 rules. But if you can beat this using 3.5 go right ahead. Oh noes... IRON GOLEMS!! And zombies!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-10-05, 07:57 PM	It's possible to get a 1-20 crit range in 3.0. Take the Nimblewright from MMII, which had a 11-20 crit range on its rapier-hands in 3.0, give it a few levels of fighter, and take Improved Critical (rapier-hand). Viola! 1-20 crit range.
Galdor_Ester 08-10-05, 08:10 PM	I had a DM use something similar in a 2E game. We were mid-level fighting a bunch of ordinary kobolds but there were prolly 100 or more. They could only hit on a 20. The end result was a TPK because with the sheer number they hit enough crits to eliminate us before we could kill them all. edit: Most of the crit results were instant death or near enough that a single crit was enough to take a member out of the fight. One thing to consider is to break up the hit points by body part (arms, legs, head, chest and abdomen) and use a percentile to determine the body part hit when a critical is scored. It allows a body part to be taken out by doing more damage than that part has. I have used this in the past to great effect as an alternate critical system. Since the majority of hits will land on the arms and legs it allows fun in game effects (cutting off a hand like in the books) while still allowing the NPC or character to still function on some level. You can break it down even further to upper, lower leg/arm, and front/back chest abdomen for the visual description if you want as well. That way a dagger that criticals has less chance of doing massive damage just as it does against a large hp pool. Just realized I should have included an example: Fighter with 100 hit points Percentile roll Body Part Hit Hit points Calculation 01-10 Head 15 15% 11-15 left arm, upper 05 5% 16-20 left arm, lower 05 5% 21-25 right arm, upper 05 5% 26-30 right arm, lower 05 5% 31-40 Chest, front 20 20% 41-50 Chest, back 20 20% 51-60 Abdomen, Front 10 10% 61-70 Abdomen, Back 10 10% 71-78 Left Leg, upper 10 10% 79-86 Left Leg, lower 10 10% 87-93 Right Leg, upper 05 5% 94-00 Right Leg, lower 05 5% This is based loosly on the burn percentages that each body part is assigned. Modified slightly based on the durability of a specific body part. Since each part is a basic percentage of the total HP it is what it takes to overcome that body part. Reducing a body part to 0 makes it useless. It is too cut up or banged up to work anymore. Doing more than twice the damage cleaves it off or crushes it off, etc. Any body part cut off causes a wound effect as well.
Arishem 08-11-05, 11:09 AM	I had a DM use something similar in a 2E game. We were mid-level fighting a bunch of ordinary kobolds but there were prolly 100 or more. They could only hit on a 20. The end result was a TPK because with the sheer number they hit enough crits to eliminate us before we could kill them all. edit: Most of the crit results were instant death or near enough that a single crit was enough to take a member out of the fight. Just becasue of this kind of thing i added in a house rule when i DM'ed that if a hit requires a 20 to hit the opponent, it simply hits them and doesn't crit. All of my players agree's they wanted that rule after a simular horde of small creatures 10 lvls below them actually killing a few people from crit damage
Jaaz 08-11-05, 11:24 AM	Under 3.0, why not forego the range and go for moderate range and insane crit damage? Take all the above crit expanders, but apply them to a monkey-gripped scythe. (2d6 for large version) The weapon master's abilities and the Kensai, expand it's crit to 15-20/x5 (10d6+5*(added points))! Not to mention the whole power attack/leap attack cheese.
Enterik 08-11-05, 12:11 PM	If we're going to go with 3.0 rules... Bladed Gauntlets had a threat range of 17-20. Add in Disciple of Dispater and triple the threat range. Add in Improved Critical to double the threat range. Add in Kensai (known as Weapon Master in Sword & Fist) to add two to the threat range. The threat range comes out to 3-20. However, it is not possible to get all of this before epic levels. Better add some power critical feats as well, so that you can follow through on all that extra threat...
Thamius 08-12-05, 05:27 PM	Just becasue of this kind of thing i added in a house rule when i DM'ed that if a hit requires a 20 to hit the opponent, it simply hits them and doesn't crit. All of my players agree's they wanted that rule after a simular horde of small creatures 10 lvls below them actually killing a few people from crit damage Just rolling a 20 is not an automatic crit, of course, a kobold would have to roll two 20's in a row in order to threaten and then confirm a critical hit. Given that it's a 1-in-400 chance of any single attack turning into an actual crit I think the odds are still broadly in favor of the characters!
LichKnight 08-12-05, 05:40 PM	This doesn't improve the crit range but get the power critical feet (i think the complete warrior) and get +4 to conferm the crit.
mvincent 08-12-05, 08:04 PM	+4 to conferm the crit.Bless Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SpellsA-B.rtf) can work well here also: "all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit" And as long as you're racking up multiples, add spirited charge (x2), or deadly charge (x3, 3.0 prc cavalier) And you can increase the base damage with truestrike & power attack (I've had this used on me with the 10-20 crit range when a party member got dominated). But then, WotC nerfed this combo exactly because of this sort of thing.
Jammin8915 08-12-05, 08:43 PM	keen doubles the critical threat range (+2 MAX), improved critical also doubles critical threat (+2 MAX). dont know where you got the +3 from.
Merestil Haye 08-12-05, 09:14 PM	keen doubles the critical threat range (+2 MAX), improved critical also doubles critical threat (+2 MAX). dont know where you got the +3 from.I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. If you mean that expanded threat ranges are found on weapons that have a x2 multiplier, that is generally true as a design rule. It's not a rule of the game though. If you mean that the feat or the magic weapon ability increase the threat range by two points, then no. A weapon with an 18-20 threat range that is Keened possesses a 15-20 threat range. Similarly Improved Critical. neither have any text about expanding the threat range by a maximum of 2 points. While I think about it, the bladed gauntlet had its threat range reduced to 19-20 / *2 by errata to Sword and Fist, so you'll wind up with much less than 3-20, sorry. (Kalstrand, I saw your post only after drafting this. What you get for skimming. I checked the errata file and it is 19-20.)