Can con loss kill a player indirectly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can con loss kill a player indirectly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Senko
11-08-07, 06:48 AM I think this is the right place to post this as its combat related if not sorry.

I was wondering can con loss kill a player by lost hit points? The situation that brought this question on is my group was fighting a wyvern and one of them after already taking a fair amount of direct damage from attacks failed his save vs poison dropping his con to 4. This means tha with the -18 that results from that he'd drop from a couple of hitpoints (and about to attack again the poor brave fool) to more than -10 meaning he'd die and at higher levels the con loss would be even higher as you multiply the modifier by level.

So my question is if gets their con dropped to a low enough point that the negative hitpoints it confers would reduce you to negatives do you die/pass out or can it only reduce you to 1 hitpoint that then needs to be removed manually.

For the sake of example (worst case) assume your rolling 4d6 drop the lowest but must assign them as they are rolled and you get for 1's on con when playing a wizard you'd have 4 hitpoints and -4 from con meaning your first level wizard has 0 hitpoints, at 2nd level you get 1d4 hit points -4 meaning you could be straight into negatives.

I assumed but con loss could only drop you to 1 hitpoint regardless of how low it was but my players say otherwise. So can con loss kill a player indirectly (other than the auto-death at 0)?
Merestil Haye
11-08-07, 07:03 AM I think this is the right place to post this as its combat related if not sorry.

I was wondering can con loss kill a player by lost hit points? The situation that brought this question on is my group was fighting a wyvern and one of them after already taking a fair amount of direct damage from attacks failed his save vs poison dropping his con to 4. This means tha with the -18 that results from that he'd drop from a couple of hitpoints (and about to attack again the poor brave fool) to more than -10 meaning he'd die and at higher levels the con loss would be even higher as you multiply the modifier by level.

So my question is if gets their con dropped to a low enough point that the negative hitpoints it confers would reduce you to negatives do you die/pass out or can it only reduce you to 1 hitpoint that then needs to be removed manually.

For the sake of example (worst case) assume your rolling 4d6 drop the lowest but must assign them as they are rolled and you get for 1's on con when playing a wizard you'd have 4 hitpoints and -4 from con meaning your first level wizard has 0 hitpoints, at 2nd level you get 1d4 hit points -4 meaning you could be straight into negatives.

I assumed but con loss could only drop you to 1 hitpoint regardless of how low it was but my players say otherwise. So can con loss kill a player indirectly (other than the auto-death at 0)?If the Con loss reduces the character's Max HP to below his current damage then he immediately drops unconscious. If Max HP are reduced to current damage-10 or less then he dies immediately.

The best way to record any quantity like hitpoints (especially where Con-changing effects are in play) is not to count hitpoints left but to track Max HP and current damage. The character falls over when damage exceeds max HP and dies when damage reaches Max HP + 10. The downside is that it makes non-lethal damage harder to track but I think that's a small price, considering the huge downside of being caught by an unexpected death due to poison.
Rulebook
11-08-07, 12:34 PM yeah, con hp loss are taken off the top, not as wounds, so if you have 40 wounds, and your con makes you drop to 30 hp, you're now at -10 and dead.

be careful, as this applies to Barbarians especially. Those arent temp hp they get, they're real con-related hp... so dont get hurt too much and forget that!
blade265
11-08-07, 12:36 PM PHB p 304
Ability Damaged or Drained: You become unable to act when any ability score is reduced to 0. When your Constitution score falls to 0 you die . When your Strength score falls to 0 you collapse, limp as a rag doll. When your Dexterity falls to 0, you're paralyzed, unable to move a muscle. When your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma falls to 0, parts of your brain shuts down and you lose consciousness. While unconscious, you cannot act at all.
Rulebook
11-08-07, 01:18 PM which wasnt what the OP was asking about at all...
1 ton ghost
11-08-07, 01:27 PM you're guaranteed at least 1 HP/lvl no matter how bad your Con is i thought. it's just having a poor Con is going to cost you on those Fort checks and Con checks.
Finarin Panjoro
11-08-07, 01:41 PM you're guaranteed at least 1 HP/lvl no matter how bad your Con is i thought. it's just having a poor Con is going to cost you on those Fort checks and Con checks.

This is true, but if your hit points drop below how much damage you've already taken you still go into negatives or are dead. That is you still subtract all of your previously taken damage from your new, reduced, hit point total. So if you had 5 hit dice and 20 hit points and took 15 points of damage, then lost 2 points of con (-5 hit points) you'd now be at 0 hit points. This is because your new maximum is 15 hit points and you've already taken 15 points of damage.

For this reason Barbarians over 5th level need to be very careful about what their hit point total is when their rages end. If a 10th level barbarian ends a rage with less than 10 hit points he dies immediately because his Con dropping back to normall lowers his hit points by 20. So he'd drop to less than -10 and be dead.
Legdiwena
11-08-07, 04:52 PM You still have at least 1 hp per HD, regardless of how bad your Con mod is. Unless you get to a Con score of 0, in which case you die automatically.
weasel0
11-08-07, 05:08 PM They're already dead.

They just don't know it yet.
Rulebook
11-08-07, 05:13 PM i think 1 ton and led arent quite getting whats being said.

lets use a 10th lvl person with 100 hp, and 18con. class and whatever dont matter.

lets say that person took 70hp of wounds, then lost 8 con.

the con loss puts his HP TOTAL at 60

he still has 70 wounds.

his now current hp is -10

dead.
Khadmus
11-08-07, 05:16 PM i think 1 ton and led arent quite getting whats being said.

lets use a 10th lvl person with 100 hp, and 18con. class and whatever dont matter.

lets say that person took 70hp of wounds, then lost 8 con.

the con loss puts his HP TOTAL at 60

he still has 70 wounds.

his now current hp is -10

dead.

Then the CON damage didnt kill them, the damage did. The CON damage merely weakened him.
Merestil Haye
11-08-07, 05:21 PM You still have at least 1 hp per HD, regardless of how bad your Con mod is. Unless you get to a Con score of 0, in which case you die automatically.Yes, but that's not relevant.

Consider a 9th level Barbarian with Con 18. On average he will have a maximum of 100hp.

This character is travelling alone and gets into a fight. He takes 50hp damage in the first round, before he can act. On his turn he rages. His Max HP go up to 118, but he has still taken 50 damage.

During the second round of the combat he takes 35hp damage, meaning he is now taken 85hp. His max hp is still 118, so he can sustain (118-85) =33 more damage.

In the third round of the combat he takes 30 more damage, putting him on 115 damage (ie 3hp remain). In his next turn he slays the enemy.

What happens to the barbarian when his rage ends in 42 seconds time? he becomes a Barbarian who's Con drops from 22 to 18. His max HP drop from 118 to 100. Unfortunately, he still has 115hp damage. That is, he's at -15hp. He is dead.

This is the sort of situation the OP was asking about. Whether the change in max HP due to Con loss can kill. The answer to that is most certainly yes.
ChainLink
11-08-07, 08:03 PM Then the CON damage didnt kill them, the damage did. The CON damage merely weakened him.

Congratulations! That's exactly the point of the topic.

"Can con loss kill a player indirectly?"
1 ton ghost
11-08-07, 11:50 PM i think 1 ton and led arent quite getting whats being said.dead.

thanks professor rulebook.
actually i did, i was just validating another notion of related subtext. you guys have covered the death out of the obvious dmg component, so, gold star for 'ya.
Con dmg and all is pretty much a universal game mechanic since, God, how long has it been? Hell, even 1st or 2nd ed maybe? who knows/cares.
StevenO
11-09-07, 01:11 AM You can not have less than one hp/hit die reguardless of your CON score.

Until your MAX hp = # HD each CON modifier loss will reduce your hp.

Damage taken doesn't care what is happening to CON and is removed from whatever hp happen to be available. If damage taken exceeds the new hp total with an adjusted CON modifier a character will be in big trouble.
Rederik
11-09-07, 02:57 PM They're already dead.

They just don't know it yet.

It can't rain all the time...
Legdiwena
11-09-07, 03:02 PM It can't rain all the time...

except on Elemental Plane of Water
Keenath
11-09-07, 03:08 PM You meant character, right? I sincerely hope that CON damage can't kill players.

Or is that why I have so much trouble getting a group together...?
Keenath
11-09-07, 03:20 PM Okay, seriously though, here's the situation (if I understand correctly):

I'm a 10th level character, and I have 20 HP left. I get hit by an ability -- possibly the second hit of some poison -- that drains my CON by 6 points.

Now, my MAXIMUM HP has a minimum of 10 (1 per HD), but I'm about to lose 30 HP from the con damage, even if my maximum HP is still up in the 60s.

The question is: Do my current HPs bottom out at 10, or do I lose the full 30, dropping me to -10 and therefore dead?

The answer is: The minimum-1-per-HD rule is only about maximum HPs, which means it'll usually only come up for casters with d4 hit dice. You lose the full specified amount of your current HP, so yes -- in this situation my character would instantly die of the poison.

This is also the situation that leads to SBDS -- Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome, where you stop raging and instantly drop dead.

Some DMs houserule that if a reduction in CON would cause you to drop to -10 or fewer HP, you drop to -9 instead and have 1 turn to get help before you die.
risner
11-09-07, 06:15 PM I think this is the right place to post this as its combat related if not sorry.

I was wondering can con loss kill a player by lost hit points?

If you have 20 HD and are at 10 HP with CON 14, then lose 4 con points which cause a drop in HP of 4/2*20 = 40 hp, then you are at -30 HP no ifs, ands, or buts. Period.

You are dead, and there is no rule that even hints otherwise.
Nephlite
11-09-07, 07:12 PM This is also the situation that leads to SBDS -- Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome, where you stop raging and instantly drop dead.

Lucily, only Duration and Calm Emotions ends Rage so you just get healed.
Senko
11-09-07, 11:58 PM Okay thanks for the help that doesn't make a whole lot of sense that you can go from positive hp to dead because your constitution is now weaker than it was, making it easier to kill you yes, automatically killing you no. Ah well it doesn't really matter if the rules say player X dies when a drop of con causes their hp to go negative, be a nasty way to deal with a high level mage.

Mage has 48HP (20 from con mod + 28 rolled about average for a 10th level mage I think)
Mage has con of 14
Spell that drains con is cast, mage fails his save and takes 3d6 con damage.
Mage now as a con of 3.
Mages hitpoints are adjusted -20 (no positive con mod)
Mage now has 28 HP but we have to factor in the new con score. -4 * 10 = -40
28-40 = -12
Mage is now dead.
risner
11-10-07, 08:52 AM Mage has 48HP (20 from con mod + 28 rolled about average for a 10th level mage I think)
Mage has con of 14
Spell that drains con is cast, mage fails his save and takes 3d6 con damage.
Mage now as a con of 3.

14 -> 3 = -6 modifier.

1d4-4 = 1 (Max current die roll with CON 3)

Mage loses 60 (6*10) hp, which is more than his base max 28, so the rule of minimum 1 hp per die kicks in now.

10 hit die = 10 * 1 = 10 hp max. So his max hps drop to 10 hp right now from 28.

Since he was at max hitpoints when he suffered the CON damage, he is alive at 10 hp right now (the lowest he can go while at max hitpoints.)

Had he been suffering 11 to 19 hit points damage when he lost the CON, he would be bleeding (-1 to -9.) If he had 20 hit points damage when he lost the CON, he would be dead.
Senko
11-11-07, 09:10 AM Woops so its a lower modifer than I thought my bad so much for going from memory and for my developing plans to develop a set of dart coated with con poion and enchanted with a con drain spell.:weep: Ah well so you get at least 1hp per level interesting now if it were me doing this I'd say at least 1 hit point. As in if your constitutions bad enough that at 20th level you only have 1 hit point maybe adventuring's not for you.

Still that seems even stranger to me like this if your already injured con loss can kill you but if your healthy beforehand it can't. I guess I've just got a nasty streak but I wouldn't apply the 1hp per die rule when your affected by con draining abilities or poisons. If you can die from con loss when damaged and/or when its reduced to zero you should be able to die from it when fully healthy even it isn't reduced to zero.

Anyway my problems with the rules aside thanks for all the help.
Nom
11-11-07, 03:13 PM Still that seems even stranger to me like this if your already injured con loss can kill you but if your healthy beforehand it can't. I guess I've just got a nasty streak but I wouldn't apply the 1hp per die rule when your affected by con draining abilities or poisons. If you can die from con loss when damaged and/or when its reduced to zero you should be able to die from it when fully healthy even it isn't reduced to zero.I don't see that as inconsistent.

(1) Con loss can kill you directly too. By the time you can make use of the minimum rule, you've only got a few Con points anyway.

(2) It doesn't seem inconsistent to me that somehow who has taken damage is more vulnerable to death by poison than someone who is not.
1 ton ghost
11-12-07, 02:00 PM though i can't necessarilly agree w/ the attack mode, it was either Sage Advice or a FAQ that stipulated the following:

for purposes of Con dmg in conjunction w/ another attack, specifically one that calls for a Save, the attacker has final discretion on which is engaged first.

basically that mean for example 'A', an assassin can apply a Con based poison, do the whole stealth routine, and Death Attack his victim. upon connection, he may decide to engage the poison's debilitating FX first before the victim makes his/her FORT Save against the Death Attack. this is arguably one of the most deadly melee attacks you can level against an advesary, specifically one that does not have a good Con adj or FORT Save, ie)most non-tank classes and the like.
couple that w/ a Demoralize (Intimidate) Standard Action from your Ftr or a Doom or another "slag your Saves/checks/abilities" spell, and you are looking at a stacking attack that is terribly effective w/out the very large bang and collateral dmg you might get from similar methods. cheaper too.
Senko
11-13-07, 12:04 AM Hmmmm interesting I didn't know that.

I don't find it inconsistent that someone who's taken con damage is more vulnerable to poisons just that it could only kill you if you were already injured.
Finarin Panjoro
11-13-07, 10:28 AM It can only kill you indirectly if you're already injured. If the Con damage (from poison or whatever) drops your Con to 0 it kills you directly.

Con damage is one of the most lethal things in the game because characters very rapidly become very fragile.
Cifer
11-13-07, 11:04 AM so the rule of minimum 1 hp per die kicks in now.
I'd advise against using that rule when applying it to anything else than the level-up itself. Otherwise, you, as a wizard, can simply poison yourself and take off your con-enhancing items when getting a level-up reducing yourself to a -4 con modifier (easily and safely done with some 1 point con damage poisons) and get the 1 hp. When you then get your con back, you'd automatically increase in HP.
Sounds logical? No? Then I'd reccommend doing away with the "at least 1 HP" rule for anything it isn't really supposed to work on, like mean con damage.
Legdiwena
11-13-07, 12:54 PM I'd advise against using that rule when applying it to anything else than the level-up itself. Otherwise, you, as a wizard, can simply poison yourself and take off your con-enhancing items when getting a level-up reducing yourself to a -4 con modifier (easily and safely done with some 1 point con damage poisons) and get the 1 hp. When you then get your con back, you'd automatically increase in HP.
Sounds logical? No? Then I'd reccommend doing away with the "at least 1 HP" rule for anything it isn't really supposed to work on, like mean con damage.

Huh?
Keenath
11-13-07, 01:04 PM He's suggesting that you could heal yourself by damaging your CON until your HP max hits the minimum value, and then removing that damage to restore yourself to full health.

Which ignores the whole point of the thread, that CON damage HP minimums only apply to MAXIMUM HP, and not to your actual current HP.

And also ignores the fact that this would be a slow and painful way to heal, and you'd be better off simply natural-healing or spending the spell slot you used for Restoration on a cure spell.
Legdiwena
11-13-07, 01:41 PM Wouldn't healing potions be cheaper than the poisons?
Keenath
11-13-07, 01:47 PM Ayup.

I meant to mention that and forgot, there's just so much wrong with the whole concept...
Finarin Panjoro
11-13-07, 01:49 PM Cifer's suggesting that you could wind up with bonus hit points this way.

If you had a normal Con of 10, but had a -4 penalty at level up (say a Con of 2) and rolled 1d4 for new hit points you would subtract four to a minimum of 1 hp. So you gain 1 hit point at level up. Once your Con penalty is removed you gain 4 hit points. So a Wizard with Con 10 just gained 5 hit points for leveling up when his normal maximum should have been 4.

Mathematically it could get worse with higher Con penalties. If you have a Con of 18 you gain back 8 hit points if you have a Con of 2 at level up. So the wizard would gain 1 then add back in his 8 regained and gain 9.

It's clearly abusive and no DM in his right mind would allow it, but I think that's where he's going with it.
Legdiwena
11-13-07, 02:23 PM Just keep track of what roll really was. For example, wizard lvl 2, rolled 3 on 2nd HD. With Con of 2, he would have 2 hp (2 HD at 1 hp each). With a Con of 10, he would have 7 hp (4 from 1st HD, 3 from lvl 2 roll, no modifier from COn). With a Con of 18, he would have 15 hp (4 from 1st HD, 3 from lvl 2 roll, 8 from 2 HD with Con mod of 4).
1 ton ghost
11-13-07, 02:28 PM little clarification, aforementioned Con dmg and Con/FORT dependent threats:

long story short, you, as the applier of said poison, but more specifically, the attacker, may choose to engage the Con dmg first before target makes its save vs. alleged Death Attack/other debilitative action.

-means lower FORT save vs. incoming death attack or follow up saves that are Con dependent.

-my concern is it's not terribly realistic. the melee weapon in question is surely going to reach your heart/nerve plexus/brain stem/whatever faster, theoretically triggering the Death Attack Save first, than the wyvern poison can be introduced into your bloodstream and make its way through your circulatory system. chicken or the egg and all that...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Senko 11-08-07, 06:48 AM	I think this is the right place to post this as its combat related if not sorry. I was wondering can con loss kill a player by lost hit points? The situation that brought this question on is my group was fighting a wyvern and one of them after already taking a fair amount of direct damage from attacks failed his save vs poison dropping his con to 4. This means tha with the -18 that results from that he'd drop from a couple of hitpoints (and about to attack again the poor brave fool) to more than -10 meaning he'd die and at higher levels the con loss would be even higher as you multiply the modifier by level. So my question is if gets their con dropped to a low enough point that the negative hitpoints it confers would reduce you to negatives do you die/pass out or can it only reduce you to 1 hitpoint that then needs to be removed manually. For the sake of example (worst case) assume your rolling 4d6 drop the lowest but must assign them as they are rolled and you get for 1's on con when playing a wizard you'd have 4 hitpoints and -4 from con meaning your first level wizard has 0 hitpoints, at 2nd level you get 1d4 hit points -4 meaning you could be straight into negatives. I assumed but con loss could only drop you to 1 hitpoint regardless of how low it was but my players say otherwise. So can con loss kill a player indirectly (other than the auto-death at 0)?
Merestil Haye 11-08-07, 07:03 AM	I think this is the right place to post this as its combat related if not sorry. I was wondering can con loss kill a player by lost hit points? The situation that brought this question on is my group was fighting a wyvern and one of them after already taking a fair amount of direct damage from attacks failed his save vs poison dropping his con to 4. This means tha with the -18 that results from that he'd drop from a couple of hitpoints (and about to attack again the poor brave fool) to more than -10 meaning he'd die and at higher levels the con loss would be even higher as you multiply the modifier by level. So my question is if gets their con dropped to a low enough point that the negative hitpoints it confers would reduce you to negatives do you die/pass out or can it only reduce you to 1 hitpoint that then needs to be removed manually. For the sake of example (worst case) assume your rolling 4d6 drop the lowest but must assign them as they are rolled and you get for 1's on con when playing a wizard you'd have 4 hitpoints and -4 from con meaning your first level wizard has 0 hitpoints, at 2nd level you get 1d4 hit points -4 meaning you could be straight into negatives. I assumed but con loss could only drop you to 1 hitpoint regardless of how low it was but my players say otherwise. So can con loss kill a player indirectly (other than the auto-death at 0)?If the Con loss reduces the character's Max HP to below his current damage then he immediately drops unconscious. If Max HP are reduced to current damage-10 or less then he dies immediately. The best way to record any quantity like hitpoints (especially where Con-changing effects are in play) is not to count hitpoints left but to track Max HP and current damage. The character falls over when damage exceeds max HP and dies when damage reaches Max HP + 10. The downside is that it makes non-lethal damage harder to track but I think that's a small price, considering the huge downside of being caught by an unexpected death due to poison.
Rulebook 11-08-07, 12:34 PM	yeah, con hp loss are taken off the top, not as wounds, so if you have 40 wounds, and your con makes you drop to 30 hp, you're now at -10 and dead. be careful, as this applies to Barbarians especially. Those arent temp hp they get, they're real con-related hp... so dont get hurt too much and forget that!
blade265 11-08-07, 12:36 PM	PHB p 304 Ability Damaged or Drained: You become unable to act when any ability score is reduced to 0. When your Constitution score falls to 0 you die . When your Strength score falls to 0 you collapse, limp as a rag doll. When your Dexterity falls to 0, you're paralyzed, unable to move a muscle. When your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma falls to 0, parts of your brain shuts down and you lose consciousness. While unconscious, you cannot act at all.
Rulebook 11-08-07, 01:18 PM	which wasnt what the OP was asking about at all...
1 ton ghost 11-08-07, 01:27 PM	you're guaranteed at least 1 HP/lvl no matter how bad your Con is i thought. it's just having a poor Con is going to cost you on those Fort checks and Con checks.
Finarin Panjoro 11-08-07, 01:41 PM	you're guaranteed at least 1 HP/lvl no matter how bad your Con is i thought. it's just having a poor Con is going to cost you on those Fort checks and Con checks. This is true, but if your hit points drop below how much damage you've already taken you still go into negatives or are dead. That is you still subtract all of your previously taken damage from your new, reduced, hit point total. So if you had 5 hit dice and 20 hit points and took 15 points of damage, then lost 2 points of con (-5 hit points) you'd now be at 0 hit points. This is because your new maximum is 15 hit points and you've already taken 15 points of damage. For this reason Barbarians over 5th level need to be very careful about what their hit point total is when their rages end. If a 10th level barbarian ends a rage with less than 10 hit points he dies immediately because his Con dropping back to normall lowers his hit points by 20. So he'd drop to less than -10 and be dead.
Legdiwena 11-08-07, 04:52 PM	You still have at least 1 hp per HD, regardless of how bad your Con mod is. Unless you get to a Con score of 0, in which case you die automatically.
weasel0 11-08-07, 05:08 PM	They're already dead. They just don't know it yet.
Rulebook 11-08-07, 05:13 PM	i think 1 ton and led arent quite getting whats being said. lets use a 10th lvl person with 100 hp, and 18con. class and whatever dont matter. lets say that person took 70hp of wounds, then lost 8 con. the con loss puts his HP TOTAL at 60 he still has 70 wounds. his now current hp is -10 dead.
Khadmus 11-08-07, 05:16 PM	i think 1 ton and led arent quite getting whats being said. lets use a 10th lvl person with 100 hp, and 18con. class and whatever dont matter. lets say that person took 70hp of wounds, then lost 8 con. the con loss puts his HP TOTAL at 60 he still has 70 wounds. his now current hp is -10 dead. Then the CON damage didnt kill them, the damage did. The CON damage merely weakened him.
Merestil Haye 11-08-07, 05:21 PM	You still have at least 1 hp per HD, regardless of how bad your Con mod is. Unless you get to a Con score of 0, in which case you die automatically.Yes, but that's not relevant. Consider a 9th level Barbarian with Con 18. On average he will have a maximum of 100hp. This character is travelling alone and gets into a fight. He takes 50hp damage in the first round, before he can act. On his turn he rages. His Max HP go up to 118, but he has still taken 50 damage. During the second round of the combat he takes 35hp damage, meaning he is now taken 85hp. His max hp is still 118, so he can sustain (118-85) =33 more damage. In the third round of the combat he takes 30 more damage, putting him on 115 damage (ie 3hp remain). In his next turn he slays the enemy. What happens to the barbarian when his rage ends in 42 seconds time? he becomes a Barbarian who's Con drops from 22 to 18. His max HP drop from 118 to 100. Unfortunately, he still has 115hp damage. That is, he's at -15hp. He is dead. This is the sort of situation the OP was asking about. Whether the change in max HP due to Con loss can kill. The answer to that is most certainly yes.
ChainLink 11-08-07, 08:03 PM	Then the CON damage didnt kill them, the damage did. The CON damage merely weakened him. Congratulations! That's exactly the point of the topic. "Can con loss kill a player indirectly?"
1 ton ghost 11-08-07, 11:50 PM	i think 1 ton and led arent quite getting whats being said.dead. thanks professor rulebook. actually i did, i was just validating another notion of related subtext. you guys have covered the death out of the obvious dmg component, so, gold star for 'ya. Con dmg and all is pretty much a universal game mechanic since, God, how long has it been? Hell, even 1st or 2nd ed maybe? who knows/cares.
StevenO 11-09-07, 01:11 AM	You can not have less than one hp/hit die reguardless of your CON score. Until your MAX hp = # HD each CON modifier loss will reduce your hp. Damage taken doesn't care what is happening to CON and is removed from whatever hp happen to be available. If damage taken exceeds the new hp total with an adjusted CON modifier a character will be in big trouble.
Rederik 11-09-07, 02:57 PM	They're already dead. They just don't know it yet. It can't rain all the time...
Legdiwena 11-09-07, 03:02 PM	It can't rain all the time... except on Elemental Plane of Water
Keenath 11-09-07, 03:08 PM	You meant character, right? I sincerely hope that CON damage can't kill players. Or is that why I have so much trouble getting a group together...?
Keenath 11-09-07, 03:20 PM	Okay, seriously though, here's the situation (if I understand correctly): I'm a 10th level character, and I have 20 HP left. I get hit by an ability -- possibly the second hit of some poison -- that drains my CON by 6 points. Now, my MAXIMUM HP has a minimum of 10 (1 per HD), but I'm about to lose 30 HP from the con damage, even if my maximum HP is still up in the 60s. The question is: Do my current HPs bottom out at 10, or do I lose the full 30, dropping me to -10 and therefore dead? The answer is: The minimum-1-per-HD rule is only about maximum HPs, which means it'll usually only come up for casters with d4 hit dice. You lose the full specified amount of your current HP, so yes -- in this situation my character would instantly die of the poison. This is also the situation that leads to SBDS -- Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome, where you stop raging and instantly drop dead. Some DMs houserule that if a reduction in CON would cause you to drop to -10 or fewer HP, you drop to -9 instead and have 1 turn to get help before you die.
risner 11-09-07, 06:15 PM	I think this is the right place to post this as its combat related if not sorry. I was wondering can con loss kill a player by lost hit points? If you have 20 HD and are at 10 HP with CON 14, then lose 4 con points which cause a drop in HP of 4/2*20 = 40 hp, then you are at -30 HP no ifs, ands, or buts. Period. You are dead, and there is no rule that even hints otherwise.
Nephlite 11-09-07, 07:12 PM	This is also the situation that leads to SBDS -- Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome, where you stop raging and instantly drop dead. Lucily, only Duration and Calm Emotions ends Rage so you just get healed.
Senko 11-09-07, 11:58 PM	Okay thanks for the help that doesn't make a whole lot of sense that you can go from positive hp to dead because your constitution is now weaker than it was, making it easier to kill you yes, automatically killing you no. Ah well it doesn't really matter if the rules say player X dies when a drop of con causes their hp to go negative, be a nasty way to deal with a high level mage. Mage has 48HP (20 from con mod + 28 rolled about average for a 10th level mage I think) Mage has con of 14 Spell that drains con is cast, mage fails his save and takes 3d6 con damage. Mage now as a con of 3. Mages hitpoints are adjusted -20 (no positive con mod) Mage now has 28 HP but we have to factor in the new con score. -4 * 10 = -40 28-40 = -12 Mage is now dead.
risner 11-10-07, 08:52 AM	Mage has 48HP (20 from con mod + 28 rolled about average for a 10th level mage I think) Mage has con of 14 Spell that drains con is cast, mage fails his save and takes 3d6 con damage. Mage now as a con of 3. 14 -> 3 = -6 modifier. 1d4-4 = 1 (Max current die roll with CON 3) Mage loses 60 (610) hp, which is more than his base max 28, so the rule of minimum 1 hp per die kicks in now. 10 hit die = 10 1 = 10 hp max. So his max hps drop to 10 hp right now from 28. Since he was at max hitpoints when he suffered the CON damage, he is alive at 10 hp right now (the lowest he can go while at max hitpoints.) Had he been suffering 11 to 19 hit points damage when he lost the CON, he would be bleeding (-1 to -9.) If he had 20 hit points damage when he lost the CON, he would be dead.
Senko 11-11-07, 09:10 AM	Woops so its a lower modifer than I thought my bad so much for going from memory and for my developing plans to develop a set of dart coated with con poion and enchanted with a con drain spell.:weep: Ah well so you get at least 1hp per level interesting now if it were me doing this I'd say at least 1 hit point. As in if your constitutions bad enough that at 20th level you only have 1 hit point maybe adventuring's not for you. Still that seems even stranger to me like this if your already injured con loss can kill you but if your healthy beforehand it can't. I guess I've just got a nasty streak but I wouldn't apply the 1hp per die rule when your affected by con draining abilities or poisons. If you can die from con loss when damaged and/or when its reduced to zero you should be able to die from it when fully healthy even it isn't reduced to zero. Anyway my problems with the rules aside thanks for all the help.
Nom 11-11-07, 03:13 PM	Still that seems even stranger to me like this if your already injured con loss can kill you but if your healthy beforehand it can't. I guess I've just got a nasty streak but I wouldn't apply the 1hp per die rule when your affected by con draining abilities or poisons. If you can die from con loss when damaged and/or when its reduced to zero you should be able to die from it when fully healthy even it isn't reduced to zero.I don't see that as inconsistent. (1) Con loss can kill you directly too. By the time you can make use of the minimum rule, you've only got a few Con points anyway. (2) It doesn't seem inconsistent to me that somehow who has taken damage is more vulnerable to death by poison than someone who is not.
1 ton ghost 11-12-07, 02:00 PM	though i can't necessarilly agree w/ the attack mode, it was either Sage Advice or a FAQ that stipulated the following: for purposes of Con dmg in conjunction w/ another attack, specifically one that calls for a Save, the attacker has final discretion on which is engaged first. basically that mean for example 'A', an assassin can apply a Con based poison, do the whole stealth routine, and Death Attack his victim. upon connection, he may decide to engage the poison's debilitating FX first before the victim makes his/her FORT Save against the Death Attack. this is arguably one of the most deadly melee attacks you can level against an advesary, specifically one that does not have a good Con adj or FORT Save, ie)most non-tank classes and the like. couple that w/ a Demoralize (Intimidate) Standard Action from your Ftr or a Doom or another "slag your Saves/checks/abilities" spell, and you are looking at a stacking attack that is terribly effective w/out the very large bang and collateral dmg you might get from similar methods. cheaper too.
Senko 11-13-07, 12:04 AM	Hmmmm interesting I didn't know that. I don't find it inconsistent that someone who's taken con damage is more vulnerable to poisons just that it could only kill you if you were already injured.
Finarin Panjoro 11-13-07, 10:28 AM	It can only kill you indirectly if you're already injured. If the Con damage (from poison or whatever) drops your Con to 0 it kills you directly. Con damage is one of the most lethal things in the game because characters very rapidly become very fragile.
Cifer 11-13-07, 11:04 AM	so the rule of minimum 1 hp per die kicks in now. I'd advise against using that rule when applying it to anything else than the level-up itself. Otherwise, you, as a wizard, can simply poison yourself and take off your con-enhancing items when getting a level-up reducing yourself to a -4 con modifier (easily and safely done with some 1 point con damage poisons) and get the 1 hp. When you then get your con back, you'd automatically increase in HP. Sounds logical? No? Then I'd reccommend doing away with the "at least 1 HP" rule for anything it isn't really supposed to work on, like mean con damage.
Legdiwena 11-13-07, 12:54 PM	I'd advise against using that rule when applying it to anything else than the level-up itself. Otherwise, you, as a wizard, can simply poison yourself and take off your con-enhancing items when getting a level-up reducing yourself to a -4 con modifier (easily and safely done with some 1 point con damage poisons) and get the 1 hp. When you then get your con back, you'd automatically increase in HP. Sounds logical? No? Then I'd reccommend doing away with the "at least 1 HP" rule for anything it isn't really supposed to work on, like mean con damage. Huh?
Keenath 11-13-07, 01:04 PM	He's suggesting that you could heal yourself by damaging your CON until your HP max hits the minimum value, and then removing that damage to restore yourself to full health. Which ignores the whole point of the thread, that CON damage HP minimums only apply to MAXIMUM HP, and not to your actual current HP. And also ignores the fact that this would be a slow and painful way to heal, and you'd be better off simply natural-healing or spending the spell slot you used for Restoration on a cure spell.
Legdiwena 11-13-07, 01:41 PM	Wouldn't healing potions be cheaper than the poisons?
Keenath 11-13-07, 01:47 PM	Ayup. I meant to mention that and forgot, there's just so much wrong with the whole concept...
Finarin Panjoro 11-13-07, 01:49 PM	Cifer's suggesting that you could wind up with bonus hit points this way. If you had a normal Con of 10, but had a -4 penalty at level up (say a Con of 2) and rolled 1d4 for new hit points you would subtract four to a minimum of 1 hp. So you gain 1 hit point at level up. Once your Con penalty is removed you gain 4 hit points. So a Wizard with Con 10 just gained 5 hit points for leveling up when his normal maximum should have been 4. Mathematically it could get worse with higher Con penalties. If you have a Con of 18 you gain back 8 hit points if you have a Con of 2 at level up. So the wizard would gain 1 then add back in his 8 regained and gain 9. It's clearly abusive and no DM in his right mind would allow it, but I think that's where he's going with it.
Legdiwena 11-13-07, 02:23 PM	Just keep track of what roll really was. For example, wizard lvl 2, rolled 3 on 2nd HD. With Con of 2, he would have 2 hp (2 HD at 1 hp each). With a Con of 10, he would have 7 hp (4 from 1st HD, 3 from lvl 2 roll, no modifier from COn). With a Con of 18, he would have 15 hp (4 from 1st HD, 3 from lvl 2 roll, 8 from 2 HD with Con mod of 4).
1 ton ghost 11-13-07, 02:28 PM	little clarification, aforementioned Con dmg and Con/FORT dependent threats: long story short, you, as the applier of said poison, but more specifically, the attacker, may choose to engage the Con dmg first before target makes its save vs. alleged Death Attack/other debilitative action. -means lower FORT save vs. incoming death attack or follow up saves that are Con dependent. -my concern is it's not terribly realistic. the melee weapon in question is surely going to reach your heart/nerve plexus/brain stem/whatever faster, theoretically triggering the Death Attack Save first, than the wyvern poison can be introduced into your bloodstream and make its way through your circulatory system. chicken or the egg and all that...