Can faint cause sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can faint cause sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeadEye19
09-26-04, 06:59 AM If a rouge spends a round feinting his target(the bluff thing that DENIES THE ENEMY'S DEX MODIFIER TO AC),does he get a sneak attack next round?
and can a rouge sneak on each of his attacks on full round?
Egres
09-26-04, 08:24 AM 1)Yes.

2)Yes, but note that your Feint denies your opponent's Dex bonus to AC only for one attack, the first.
Grox
09-26-04, 04:07 PM And most DMs will agree that you can sneak attack an opponent who has fainted :D
Edymnion
09-26-04, 04:08 PM Yeah, thats kinda the whole point of being able to Feint in combat.
Lanoitakude
09-26-04, 07:43 PM Well, I've never heard of make-up feinting in combat, let alone sneak attacking!
KmartKommando
09-26-04, 08:02 PM Of course, if you don't have Improved Feint, an evil Meta-DM will just move the target you just feinted out of your reach or have him do something that negates sneak attacks, like cast blur or invisibility. :mad:
Edymnion
09-26-04, 08:26 PM Well, I've never heard of make-up feinting in combat, let alone sneak attacking!No no no, you missunderstand. Its the Avon lady that does the sneak attacking, she's just using a brush covered in rouge as a weapon. :P

"Now you'd look just lovely in this shade... Ha! Made you look, take this!"
Lanoitakude
09-26-04, 08:30 PM Haha, good stuff. I think "rogue" is the most misspelled word in D&D.
solace in fire
09-26-04, 09:38 PM ROUGE, ROUGE, ROUGE!!!

But yeah, Improved Feint is useful for Rogues. If you have the Complete Warrior, there is a PrC called the Invisible Blade. At 5th Level you can Feint as a Free action, thus allowing you to make a full attack against a foe that you feinted against, each one that hits giving Sneak Atk dmg. It pwns.
DeadEye19
09-27-04, 01:23 AM I find it strange a rouge,unless improved invisibility is cast on him,can sneak more than once per round.
how suprised or unpreapered can a guy be?Get out of the shock!
What do you think
Moon-Lancer
09-27-04, 07:53 AM I think of it more as twisting the knife, in a way.
Zelphi
09-27-04, 09:21 AM It's a poor tactic, you're better off going invisible then sneaking them anyway. Against tough opponents its not good, against weaker ones you need the improved version or its a waste, even then its only 1 attack.
Aethamyr
09-27-04, 04:23 PM I find it strange a rouge,unless improved invisibility is cast on him,can sneak more than once per round.
how suprised or unpreapered can a guy be?Get out of the shock!
What do you think

Sneak attacking doesn't really have to do with a suprised opponent. It's striking at vital organs, such as the kidneys or heart. Feinting tricks your opponent into defending the wrong spot, leaving a vital area open for you to strike at, and do sneak attack damage to.
malykoth
09-27-04, 04:33 PM But yeah, Improved Feint is useful for Rogues. If you have the Complete Warrior, there is a PrC called the Invisible Blade. At 5th Level you can Feint as a Free action, thus allowing you to make a full attack against a foe that you feinted against, each one that hits giving Sneak Atk dmg. It pwns.
Well, I just look over the class, and I must say that it doesn't specifically state that each and every attack of a full attack is granted the sneak attack damage. Since that would be a potentially devistating advantage, I would have to assume that having it apply to all attacks was not the intention of the ability. I would rule that it still only applies to the first attack in a round. It's still an awesome ability, as it can still be used (for free) each and every round. True, it is open to DM interpretation (since the description of free action is rather vague on exactly how many times it can be preformed in a round), but such a potent interpretation of the rules is usually stated, not implied...and let's face it, just about every time someone champions a more liberal interpretation of a rule, the good folks at WotC usually come down with a far more conservative errata/explanaition/etc. to remove said "super-kewl" ability from the hands of the players.
Edymnion
09-27-04, 04:34 PM I find it strange a rouge,unless improved invisibility is cast on him,can sneak more than once per round.
how suprised or unpreapered can a guy be?Get out of the shock!
What do you thinkSneak Attack has nothing at all to do with catching them unawares. That is one possible way to get a SA, but its the most uncommon way.

The following is perfectly legal, and should demonstrate this:

PC rogue is lying in ambush for an NPC.
NPC walks into range.

PC rogue jumps out of the shadow (surprise action), says "Hi, I'm going to shoot you!" as a free action, and fires his crossbow, getting sneak attack damage.

Surprise action over, both the NPC and the PC rogue roll for init. Thanks to Improved Init, the Rogue wins and goes first.

Rogue takes his move action to walk up to the NPC, drawing his knife. He then says, as a free action, "I'm gonna stab you now!", and proceeds to stab the NPC for sneak attack damage.

The NPC's init comes up, he's no longer flatfooted, attacks rogue, misses.

Rogue PC's flanking buddy Fighter runs up behind the NPC into flanking position.

Rogue's init comes up again, says "I'm gonna stab you some more!" as a free action, and proceeds to do a full attack, getting multiple sneak attacks.

Throughout this whole thing, the NPC knew the Rogue was there, and could see the attack coming. Doesn't matter though, this isn't second edition backstab, the target can know you're there, and know that you're attacking them, and still not be able to defend themselves well enough to prevent the Rogue from sneak attacking.

Ain't it fun? :D
FitzNighteyes
09-27-04, 05:24 PM Well, I just look over the class, and I must say that it doesn't specifically state that each and every attack of a full attack is granted the sneak attack damage.It doesn't say anything about it because that would be an additional restriction.

The way sneak attack works is: You attack. Is the opponent Denied Dex to AC vs this attack? If yes, sneak attack. Is the opponent Flanked when you make this attack? If yes, sneak attack. Rinse and repeat for any remaining attacks.

Sometimes your opponent is Denied Dex vs a limited number of your attacks (first attack when invisible, opponent was feinted), and other times they are Denied Dex vs each and every attack as it occurs in a round (opponent flat-footed), and sometimes they are typically Denied Dex vs all attacks, but potentially not (opponent Flanked).

As an example of the last one, a Readied action might occur between your first and second attack in a round that changes the Flanked status of your opponent.
malykoth
09-27-04, 05:24 PM Ignore my previous post on this thread...I got taken to school about this same point over on another thread, and apparently I couldn't be more wrong. By all means, sneak attack away to your heart's content! Sneak attacks for everyone! Wheee!!
(guess I'm the only one that thinks this is a tiny bit "bent"...if not actually broken)
Edymnion
09-27-04, 05:48 PM (guess I'm the only one that thinks this is a tiny bit "bent"...if not actually broken)Its just coming, I assume, from the fact that you haven't had any real experience with the Rogue in action.

Yes, Sneak Attack is a very powerful ability. However, it is also a trap that gets the majority of rogues (I'd wager) killed.

The Rogue only has a d6 for hitdice, and can only sneak attack within 30' of the target. That means the Rogue MUST enter melee range to pull the SA off, and generally, any full attack is going to cripple a Rogue, if not outright kill them.

Plus all the ways to be immune to Sneak Attack. Note that ANY amount of concealment makes it impossible to sneak attack. That means that anyone in the dark is essentially safe from Sneak Attacks, as low light conditions grant concealment. Smokey/foggy conditions grant concealment. That right there knocks out the two classic "rogue-ish" senarios.

Basically though, if the Rogue can't kill the target in the first hit, they're gonna die, no two ways about it. Add that in with all the simple ways to be immune to sneak attacks, add in the magic ways (blur comes to mind), and all of the immune creature types (construct, elemental, plant, undead...), and it essentially becomes the high point of the Rogue player's day when he actually gets to pull a sneak attack off.
Jinlong
09-28-04, 12:11 AM It comes down to whether you can do free actions in the middle of a Full Attack Action. There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me.
RealMad
09-28-04, 05:10 AM It comes down to whether you can do free actions in the middle of a Full Attack Action. There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me.

I dunno. Boxers feint, punch, feint, punch, punch, and so on... all the time. It never really struck me as strange to be able to feint, hit, feint, hit, feint, hit. Perhaps because I was on the receiving end of such tactics when I used to box amateur.

Really, sometimes you get caught watching a split second of a head wiggle and then BOOM, left hook. Funny thing is, you think you'd cover up and defend but you end up watching a quick shoulder feint and BOOM, right uppercut. Maybe I was just a bad boxer but mechanically-speaking, this is not strange. Watch any lightweight boxing match, particularly at the amateur level where many boxers can be feinted, and you'll see how this can be incorporated in the mere instants between punches.
mattmurdock
09-28-04, 06:33 AM It comes down to whether you can do free actions in the middle of a Full Attack Action. There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me.

I do agree that it seems broken, but there is rules precedent...you can use quick draw to draw daggers as a free action in order to throw a dagger with each iterative attack, so WOTC have pretty much stated that it is OK to use free actions between iterative attacks.
Zelphi
09-28-04, 09:31 AM Well yeah, they're free actions, and therefore free to take.

One side question, can you take a free action when its not your turn, say if I ready an action to sheath a reach weapon - can I also then quickdraw a melee weapon?
q'afuu
09-28-04, 10:08 AM There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me. It *is* unusual. You need a PrC ability to be able to pull it off.
q'afuu
09-28-04, 10:21 AM One side question, can you take a free action when its not your turn, say if I ready an action to sheath a reach weapon - can I also then quickdraw a melee weapon? Nope. Actions, even free actions, can only be taken on your turn. It's 'not an action' type thingies you can do on someone else's turn. There are exceptions, but they should note that they are (like, for instance, casting Featherfall).
malykoth
09-28-04, 10:22 AM There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling.
q'afuu
09-28-04, 10:37 AM That's what the rules say. It's up to what the DM thinks is reasonable.

Btw, Quickdraw doesn't let you sheathe a weapon as a free action and there's no 'Quicksheathe' feat that I know of. You might be able to draw a million weapons as a million free actions if your DM allows it, but you can't draw and sheathe the same weapon a million times per round.
Mirtek
09-28-04, 10:38 AM There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling.
Actually the rules do indeed say, that it's up ro each DM to make his individual ruling.

The only official limit about the number of free actions is "Only one spell per round as a free action".

Thus DM A might allow an invisible blade to do 4 feints between his four attacks, while DM B won't allow it.

Neither DM would be more wrong or more right.

Personally I would let the IB feint once per attack, but no more.
Beamup
09-28-04, 10:38 AM There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling.

There IS an officially listed limit. Said limit being DM's discretion. So your position is not only logical, it's explicitly in the rules.
Bane
09-28-04, 11:08 AM I had a Master of the Unseen Hand with quickdraw. My battles went mostly like this:
Round 1: Cast Telekinesis. Move to postition where I won't die or provoke AoO's before my next turn.
Round 2: Quickdraw and drop 15 greatswords as free actions. Use the Violent thrust to throw them all at some target who looks like he deserves 30d6 points of damage.
Round 3: If aforementioned target dies, move to his corpse, and more specifically, the 15 swords, and use Violent thrust to throw them at someone else. If the target survived, repeat step 2.
Round 4-15: Repeat round 3. If I become endangered, use telekinetic flight to leave, taking allies with me if necessary.
FitzNighteyes
09-28-04, 11:32 AM Round 2: Quickdraw and drop 15 greatswords as free actions.You are lucky your DM determined that it was possible to carry 15 greatswords in a manner they could be drawn. I wouldn't allow that (maybe 3-4 max).
malykoth
09-28-04, 12:04 PM You are lucky your DM determined that it was possible to carry 15 greatswords in a manner they could be drawn. I wouldn't allow that (maybe 3-4 max).
I was thinking the same thing...
BW0222
09-28-04, 02:05 PM >Of course, if you don't have Improved Feint, an evil Meta-DM will just move
>the target you just feinted out of your reach or have him do something that
>negates sneak attacks, like cast blur or invisibility

Doesn't work?

a) Your opponent draws a AoO from leaving the threatened square and would have no dexterity during that attack, unless he is fleeing.

b) If they tumble or double move away... on your next turn you can move up to them and they still have no dex against your attack.

c) Casting a spell (assuming you do) next to you would also invoke an AoO -- again with no dexterity. Not only would you be likely to hit (no dex), but it's almost ensured to disrupt the spell if you are adding sneak attack damage to it.

In any case, it can make your opponent do something on their initiative other than what they intended to do or is optimal.
DeadEye19
09-30-04, 03:59 AM Well, a spell can be easily cast on the defence.
Goreg Skullcrusher
10-01-04, 02:18 AM There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling.

Actually, I believe the designer of that PrC clarified that it was his intent that only one feint attempt be allowed per attack during a full-attack. House-ruling in that way makes it somewhat more reasonable.
FitzNighteyes
10-01-04, 10:00 AM Nope. A designer clarified that it was intended that an Invisible Blade PrC be allowed to Feint once before each attack in a full-attack (not once per round).

The reason he had to do that was people were asking: If an invisible blade can feint as a free action, can he feint an infinite number of times until he succeeds before each attack?

Edit: Goreg, I must be blind. ;)
Goreg Skullcrusher
10-01-04, 12:39 PM Nope. A designer clarified that it was intended that an Invisible Blade PrC be allowed to Feint once before each attack in a full-attack (not once per round).

The reason he had to do that was people were asking: If an invisible blade can feint as a free action, can he feint an infinite number of times until he succeeds before each attack?

Read my post again and you'll see that we've said the exact same thing. :)
Teltharis
10-02-04, 01:28 PM uhh, that whole 15 greatswords thing is really silly, I mean for goodness sakes, how can you carry 15 greatswords, much less draw them and what not, heck it would be darn near impossible to carry 4 of em. And your dm allowed this, what were you playing as, a were-elephant half dragon solar with the greater vampire bloodline or something? As for free actions I personally use a limit on case by case basis, within reason.
DeadEye19
10-03-04, 04:35 AM uhh, that whole 15 greatswords thing is really silly, I mean for goodness sakes, how can you carry 15 greatswords, much less draw them and what not, heck it would be darn near impossible to carry 4 of em. And your dm allowed this, what were you playing as, a were-elephant half dragon solar with the greater vampire bloodline or something? As for free actions I personally use a limit on case by case basis, within reason.
Would you say that its reasonable to carry a longsword,Longbow,and 2 nets?
And if the PC has quick draw,do you think its ok to,as part as a full attack,draw the net,throw,draw the sword,attack?
Escef
10-03-04, 05:25 AM This whole free action arguement would be easily solved if things classed as free actions (that are potentially game breaking if used repeatedly in a round) were reclassified as swift actions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadEye19 09-26-04, 06:59 AM	If a rouge spends a round feinting his target(the bluff thing that DENIES THE ENEMY'S DEX MODIFIER TO AC),does he get a sneak attack next round? and can a rouge sneak on each of his attacks on full round?
Egres 09-26-04, 08:24 AM	1)Yes. 2)Yes, but note that your Feint denies your opponent's Dex bonus to AC only for one attack, the first.
Grox 09-26-04, 04:07 PM	And most DMs will agree that you can sneak attack an opponent who has fainted :D
Edymnion 09-26-04, 04:08 PM	Yeah, thats kinda the whole point of being able to Feint in combat.
Lanoitakude 09-26-04, 07:43 PM	Well, I've never heard of make-up feinting in combat, let alone sneak attacking!
KmartKommando 09-26-04, 08:02 PM	Of course, if you don't have Improved Feint, an evil Meta-DM will just move the target you just feinted out of your reach or have him do something that negates sneak attacks, like cast blur or invisibility. :mad:
Edymnion 09-26-04, 08:26 PM	Well, I've never heard of make-up feinting in combat, let alone sneak attacking!No no no, you missunderstand. Its the Avon lady that does the sneak attacking, she's just using a brush covered in rouge as a weapon. :P "Now you'd look just lovely in this shade... Ha! Made you look, take this!"
Lanoitakude 09-26-04, 08:30 PM	Haha, good stuff. I think "rogue" is the most misspelled word in D&D.
solace in fire 09-26-04, 09:38 PM	ROUGE, ROUGE, ROUGE!!! But yeah, Improved Feint is useful for Rogues. If you have the Complete Warrior, there is a PrC called the Invisible Blade. At 5th Level you can Feint as a Free action, thus allowing you to make a full attack against a foe that you feinted against, each one that hits giving Sneak Atk dmg. It pwns.
DeadEye19 09-27-04, 01:23 AM	I find it strange a rouge,unless improved invisibility is cast on him,can sneak more than once per round. how suprised or unpreapered can a guy be?Get out of the shock! What do you think
Moon-Lancer 09-27-04, 07:53 AM	I think of it more as twisting the knife, in a way.
Zelphi 09-27-04, 09:21 AM	It's a poor tactic, you're better off going invisible then sneaking them anyway. Against tough opponents its not good, against weaker ones you need the improved version or its a waste, even then its only 1 attack.
Aethamyr 09-27-04, 04:23 PM	I find it strange a rouge,unless improved invisibility is cast on him,can sneak more than once per round. how suprised or unpreapered can a guy be?Get out of the shock! What do you think Sneak attacking doesn't really have to do with a suprised opponent. It's striking at vital organs, such as the kidneys or heart. Feinting tricks your opponent into defending the wrong spot, leaving a vital area open for you to strike at, and do sneak attack damage to.
malykoth 09-27-04, 04:33 PM	But yeah, Improved Feint is useful for Rogues. If you have the Complete Warrior, there is a PrC called the Invisible Blade. At 5th Level you can Feint as a Free action, thus allowing you to make a full attack against a foe that you feinted against, each one that hits giving Sneak Atk dmg. It pwns. Well, I just look over the class, and I must say that it doesn't specifically state that each and every attack of a full attack is granted the sneak attack damage. Since that would be a potentially devistating advantage, I would have to assume that having it apply to all attacks was not the intention of the ability. I would rule that it still only applies to the first attack in a round. It's still an awesome ability, as it can still be used (for free) each and every round. True, it is open to DM interpretation (since the description of free action is rather vague on exactly how many times it can be preformed in a round), but such a potent interpretation of the rules is usually stated, not implied...and let's face it, just about every time someone champions a more liberal interpretation of a rule, the good folks at WotC usually come down with a far more conservative errata/explanaition/etc. to remove said "super-kewl" ability from the hands of the players.
Edymnion 09-27-04, 04:34 PM	I find it strange a rouge,unless improved invisibility is cast on him,can sneak more than once per round. how suprised or unpreapered can a guy be?Get out of the shock! What do you thinkSneak Attack has nothing at all to do with catching them unawares. That is one possible way to get a SA, but its the most uncommon way. The following is perfectly legal, and should demonstrate this: PC rogue is lying in ambush for an NPC. NPC walks into range. PC rogue jumps out of the shadow (surprise action), says "Hi, I'm going to shoot you!" as a free action, and fires his crossbow, getting sneak attack damage. Surprise action over, both the NPC and the PC rogue roll for init. Thanks to Improved Init, the Rogue wins and goes first. Rogue takes his move action to walk up to the NPC, drawing his knife. He then says, as a free action, "I'm gonna stab you now!", and proceeds to stab the NPC for sneak attack damage. The NPC's init comes up, he's no longer flatfooted, attacks rogue, misses. Rogue PC's flanking buddy Fighter runs up behind the NPC into flanking position. Rogue's init comes up again, says "I'm gonna stab you some more!" as a free action, and proceeds to do a full attack, getting multiple sneak attacks. Throughout this whole thing, the NPC knew the Rogue was there, and could see the attack coming. Doesn't matter though, this isn't second edition backstab, the target can know you're there, and know that you're attacking them, and still not be able to defend themselves well enough to prevent the Rogue from sneak attacking. Ain't it fun? :D
FitzNighteyes 09-27-04, 05:24 PM	Well, I just look over the class, and I must say that it doesn't specifically state that each and every attack of a full attack is granted the sneak attack damage.It doesn't say anything about it because that would be an additional restriction. The way sneak attack works is: You attack. Is the opponent Denied Dex to AC vs this attack? If yes, sneak attack. Is the opponent Flanked when you make this attack? If yes, sneak attack. Rinse and repeat for any remaining attacks. Sometimes your opponent is Denied Dex vs a limited number of your attacks (first attack when invisible, opponent was feinted), and other times they are Denied Dex vs each and every attack as it occurs in a round (opponent flat-footed), and sometimes they are typically Denied Dex vs all attacks, but potentially not (opponent Flanked). As an example of the last one, a Readied action might occur between your first and second attack in a round that changes the Flanked status of your opponent.
malykoth 09-27-04, 05:24 PM	Ignore my previous post on this thread...I got taken to school about this same point over on another thread, and apparently I couldn't be more wrong. By all means, sneak attack away to your heart's content! Sneak attacks for everyone! Wheee!! (guess I'm the only one that thinks this is a tiny bit "bent"...if not actually broken)
Edymnion 09-27-04, 05:48 PM	(guess I'm the only one that thinks this is a tiny bit "bent"...if not actually broken)Its just coming, I assume, from the fact that you haven't had any real experience with the Rogue in action. Yes, Sneak Attack is a very powerful ability. However, it is also a trap that gets the majority of rogues (I'd wager) killed. The Rogue only has a d6 for hitdice, and can only sneak attack within 30' of the target. That means the Rogue MUST enter melee range to pull the SA off, and generally, any full attack is going to cripple a Rogue, if not outright kill them. Plus all the ways to be immune to Sneak Attack. Note that ANY amount of concealment makes it impossible to sneak attack. That means that anyone in the dark is essentially safe from Sneak Attacks, as low light conditions grant concealment. Smokey/foggy conditions grant concealment. That right there knocks out the two classic "rogue-ish" senarios. Basically though, if the Rogue can't kill the target in the first hit, they're gonna die, no two ways about it. Add that in with all the simple ways to be immune to sneak attacks, add in the magic ways (blur comes to mind), and all of the immune creature types (construct, elemental, plant, undead...), and it essentially becomes the high point of the Rogue player's day when he actually gets to pull a sneak attack off.
Jinlong 09-28-04, 12:11 AM	It comes down to whether you can do free actions in the middle of a Full Attack Action. There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me.
RealMad 09-28-04, 05:10 AM	It comes down to whether you can do free actions in the middle of a Full Attack Action. There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me. I dunno. Boxers feint, punch, feint, punch, punch, and so on... all the time. It never really struck me as strange to be able to feint, hit, feint, hit, feint, hit. Perhaps because I was on the receiving end of such tactics when I used to box amateur. Really, sometimes you get caught watching a split second of a head wiggle and then BOOM, left hook. Funny thing is, you think you'd cover up and defend but you end up watching a quick shoulder feint and BOOM, right uppercut. Maybe I was just a bad boxer but mechanically-speaking, this is not strange. Watch any lightweight boxing match, particularly at the amateur level where many boxers can be feinted, and you'll see how this can be incorporated in the mere instants between punches.
mattmurdock 09-28-04, 06:33 AM	It comes down to whether you can do free actions in the middle of a Full Attack Action. There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me. I do agree that it seems broken, but there is rules precedent...you can use quick draw to draw daggers as a free action in order to throw a dagger with each iterative attack, so WOTC have pretty much stated that it is OK to use free actions between iterative attacks.
Zelphi 09-28-04, 09:31 AM	Well yeah, they're free actions, and therefore free to take. One side question, can you take a free action when its not your turn, say if I ready an action to sheath a reach weapon - can I also then quickdraw a melee weapon?
q'afuu 09-28-04, 10:08 AM	There's nothing wrong with multiple SAs per turn, but multiple feints in between the iterative attacks sounds unusual to me. It is unusual. You need a PrC ability to be able to pull it off.
q'afuu 09-28-04, 10:21 AM	One side question, can you take a free action when its not your turn, say if I ready an action to sheath a reach weapon - can I also then quickdraw a melee weapon? Nope. Actions, even free actions, can only be taken on your turn. It's 'not an action' type thingies you can do on someone else's turn. There are exceptions, but they should note that they are (like, for instance, casting Featherfall).
malykoth 09-28-04, 10:22 AM	There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling.
q'afuu 09-28-04, 10:37 AM	That's what the rules say. It's up to what the DM thinks is reasonable. Btw, Quickdraw doesn't let you sheathe a weapon as a free action and there's no 'Quicksheathe' feat that I know of. You might be able to draw a million weapons as a million free actions if your DM allows it, but you can't draw and sheathe the same weapon a million times per round.
Mirtek 09-28-04, 10:38 AM	There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling. Actually the rules do indeed say, that it's up ro each DM to make his individual ruling. The only official limit about the number of free actions is "Only one spell per round as a free action". Thus DM A might allow an invisible blade to do 4 feints between his four attacks, while DM B won't allow it. Neither DM would be more wrong or more right. Personally I would let the IB feint once per attack, but no more.
Beamup 09-28-04, 10:38 AM	There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling. There IS an officially listed limit. Said limit being DM's discretion. So your position is not only logical, it's explicitly in the rules.
Bane 09-28-04, 11:08 AM	I had a Master of the Unseen Hand with quickdraw. My battles went mostly like this: Round 1: Cast Telekinesis. Move to postition where I won't die or provoke AoO's before my next turn. Round 2: Quickdraw and drop 15 greatswords as free actions. Use the Violent thrust to throw them all at some target who looks like he deserves 30d6 points of damage. Round 3: If aforementioned target dies, move to his corpse, and more specifically, the 15 swords, and use Violent thrust to throw them at someone else. If the target survived, repeat step 2. Round 4-15: Repeat round 3. If I become endangered, use telekinetic flight to leave, taking allies with me if necessary.
FitzNighteyes 09-28-04, 11:32 AM	Round 2: Quickdraw and drop 15 greatswords as free actions.You are lucky your DM determined that it was possible to carry 15 greatswords in a manner they could be drawn. I wouldn't allow that (maybe 3-4 max).
malykoth 09-28-04, 12:04 PM	You are lucky your DM determined that it was possible to carry 15 greatswords in a manner they could be drawn. I wouldn't allow that (maybe 3-4 max). I was thinking the same thing...
BW0222 09-28-04, 02:05 PM	>Of course, if you don't have Improved Feint, an evil Meta-DM will just move >the target you just feinted out of your reach or have him do something that >negates sneak attacks, like cast blur or invisibility Doesn't work? a) Your opponent draws a AoO from leaving the threatened square and would have no dexterity during that attack, unless he is fleeing. b) If they tumble or double move away... on your next turn you can move up to them and they still have no dex against your attack. c) Casting a spell (assuming you do) next to you would also invoke an AoO -- again with no dexterity. Not only would you be likely to hit (no dex), but it's almost ensured to disrupt the spell if you are adding sneak attack damage to it. In any case, it can make your opponent do something on their initiative other than what they intended to do or is optimal.
DeadEye19 09-30-04, 03:59 AM	Well, a spell can be easily cast on the defence.
Goreg Skullcrusher 10-01-04, 02:18 AM	There has to be some sort of limit to the number of free actions a character can take in one round, even if such a limit isn't "officially" listed. If the character has Quickdraw, can he draw and sheath a weapon 10...50...200...1,000 times in one round? Sounds ridiculous to me. If necessary, each DM should be willing to make a case by case ruling. Actually, I believe the designer of that PrC clarified that it was his intent that only one feint attempt be allowed per attack during a full-attack. House-ruling in that way makes it somewhat more reasonable.
FitzNighteyes 10-01-04, 10:00 AM	Nope. A designer clarified that it was intended that an Invisible Blade PrC be allowed to Feint once before each attack in a full-attack (not once per round). The reason he had to do that was people were asking: If an invisible blade can feint as a free action, can he feint an infinite number of times until he succeeds before each attack? Edit: Goreg, I must be blind. ;)
Goreg Skullcrusher 10-01-04, 12:39 PM	Nope. A designer clarified that it was intended that an Invisible Blade PrC be allowed to Feint once before each attack in a full-attack (not once per round). The reason he had to do that was people were asking: If an invisible blade can feint as a free action, can he feint an infinite number of times until he succeeds before each attack? Read my post again and you'll see that we've said the exact same thing. :)
Teltharis 10-02-04, 01:28 PM	uhh, that whole 15 greatswords thing is really silly, I mean for goodness sakes, how can you carry 15 greatswords, much less draw them and what not, heck it would be darn near impossible to carry 4 of em. And your dm allowed this, what were you playing as, a were-elephant half dragon solar with the greater vampire bloodline or something? As for free actions I personally use a limit on case by case basis, within reason.
DeadEye19 10-03-04, 04:35 AM	uhh, that whole 15 greatswords thing is really silly, I mean for goodness sakes, how can you carry 15 greatswords, much less draw them and what not, heck it would be darn near impossible to carry 4 of em. And your dm allowed this, what were you playing as, a were-elephant half dragon solar with the greater vampire bloodline or something? As for free actions I personally use a limit on case by case basis, within reason. Would you say that its reasonable to carry a longsword,Longbow,and 2 nets? And if the PC has quick draw,do you think its ok to,as part as a full attack,draw the net,throw,draw the sword,attack?
Escef 10-03-04, 05:25 AM	This whole free action arguement would be easily solved if things classed as free actions (that are potentially game breaking if used repeatedly in a round) were reclassified as swift actions.