Can he do that!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can he do that!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Siegfriend
07-31-06, 05:41 AM Need a rule check on this but we have a Rogue who's uses an unusual way of fighting. He uses shurikens in combat, before he throws one he makes a Slight of Hand check so you dont see the attack comming after he Quick Draws it. This in turn doesn't give you your Dex to AC and give him his sneak attack damage, which hurts espically when your low-level. Is this even legit? and if so any advice on fighting against such a foe employing it?
runestar
07-31-06, 05:45 AM I thought that was a feint made using the bluff rules, and could only be used 1/round? :confused:
Plothos
07-31-06, 05:49 AM There's no rule that lets you do this. And any DM allowing it makes rogues far more powerful than they should be. Sleight of hand to conceal a weapon is not about making an attack surprising in this manner; it's to let you get a weapon into a jail cell or something like that. There's feint and improved feint, but they work differently. There you use a bluff check, and it's not nothing to do with hiding the weapon.
_Chaz_
07-31-06, 06:58 AM Unless he's got the Cloak Fighting feat in Complete Warrior...
Dragonteuthis
07-31-06, 08:45 AM No-where in the [core] rules does it say striking with a concealed weapon denies the target their dexterity bonus to AC.

Also, read the "Try Again" section of the Sleight of Hand skill.

Also, keep an eye on this player. It sounds like he might be a munchkin, and if so, don't be afraid to say "no" to his stupid made-up rules in the future. He'll still play, you just have to be firm and establish the fact that you're not afraid to keep him balanced with the rest of the party and the game in general.
Thorak
07-31-06, 08:46 AM Well, it is technically a rule. The rules for surprise. Which only apply at the very start of the combat. If they didn't notice him draw the weapon, due to the sleight of hand, he can attack them and begin combat, and all enemies are considered flatfooted at that point. After he goes, if he surprised his teammates too, then initiative is rolled, and like normal, each character (save the Rogue) remains flatfooted until their initiative comes up.

If you're doing this mid-combat, like the others said, it's a feint, and at best you're looking at once/round, with Improved Feint.
Dragonteuthis
07-31-06, 09:00 AM Well, it is technically a rule.

While concealing your weapon as a free action with a -20 penalty to Sleight of Hand is indeed a rule, the consequences of throwing a previously concealed weapon is not. The surprise rules are seperate and having absolutely nothing to do with concealed weaponry (i.e. the surprise rules work the exact same way whether your weapon is concealed or not).

Also, one thing I ommitted in my previous post; with Quick Draw it is a move action to draw a hidden weapon, so AT MOST he'd be doing this once per round.

So actually, if you rule that a concealed weapon denies the target their Dexterity bonus to AC, this guy would have to...

1) Make a Sleight of hand check at -16 (-20 for free action, +4 for shuriken) opposed by Spot checks.
2) Quick Draw as a move action
3) Make a single attack as a standard action
4) If he fails, the DC of future attempts increases by 10.

Given all that, I'd be tempted to allow it, just to avoid arguing. Honestly, Sneak Attack once per round is no big deal, and it's easier to do with Bluff and Improved Feint.

Sorry for double posting; my mind just won't stop working :P. Good luck!
MingThing
07-31-06, 10:40 AM how about the seraphim throw from planar handbook? (its not in srd, so i wont quote it :( )
Dheran
07-31-06, 01:20 PM The mechanic this Rogue is trying to use is similar to the "palm a dagger" use for Sleight of Hand detailed on page 122 of Complete Warrior. But there are some severe limitations to this skill use:
it's for melee attacks only
you need to attack the foe for 3 rounds to get one sneak attack attempt
it only works with an off-hand dagger; 2WF penalties apply
The feat that comes closest to this mechanic is Flick of the Wrist, also from Complete Warrior. There are limitations to this, too:
it's for melee attacks only
you get one sneak attack attempt per opponent, per combat
it only works with a light weapon
With shurikens the Rogue would be limited to 1-2 surprise rounds at the beginning of combat, having nothing to do with Sleight of Hand. Any house rule to allow some extra sneak attack attempts with Sleight of Hand should be no more powerful than these two mechanisms above, and should probably require a custom feat.
ShinAkuma2
07-31-06, 01:20 PM He could do that if he were a Master Thrower. I'd be wary about granting PrC abilities for free.
Siegfriend
08-01-06, 05:22 PM The Master Thrower is what started me on finding this out i nthe first place. Why should you be able to do this normally when it's a Master Thrower ability?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siegfriend 07-31-06, 05:41 AM	Need a rule check on this but we have a Rogue who's uses an unusual way of fighting. He uses shurikens in combat, before he throws one he makes a Slight of Hand check so you dont see the attack comming after he Quick Draws it. This in turn doesn't give you your Dex to AC and give him his sneak attack damage, which hurts espically when your low-level. Is this even legit? and if so any advice on fighting against such a foe employing it?
runestar 07-31-06, 05:45 AM	I thought that was a feint made using the bluff rules, and could only be used 1/round? :confused:
Plothos 07-31-06, 05:49 AM	There's no rule that lets you do this. And any DM allowing it makes rogues far more powerful than they should be. Sleight of hand to conceal a weapon is not about making an attack surprising in this manner; it's to let you get a weapon into a jail cell or something like that. There's feint and improved feint, but they work differently. There you use a bluff check, and it's not nothing to do with hiding the weapon.
_Chaz_ 07-31-06, 06:58 AM	Unless he's got the Cloak Fighting feat in Complete Warrior...
Dragonteuthis 07-31-06, 08:45 AM	No-where in the [core] rules does it say striking with a concealed weapon denies the target their dexterity bonus to AC. Also, read the "Try Again" section of the Sleight of Hand skill. Also, keep an eye on this player. It sounds like he might be a munchkin, and if so, don't be afraid to say "no" to his stupid made-up rules in the future. He'll still play, you just have to be firm and establish the fact that you're not afraid to keep him balanced with the rest of the party and the game in general.
Thorak 07-31-06, 08:46 AM	Well, it is technically a rule. The rules for surprise. Which only apply at the very start of the combat. If they didn't notice him draw the weapon, due to the sleight of hand, he can attack them and begin combat, and all enemies are considered flatfooted at that point. After he goes, if he surprised his teammates too, then initiative is rolled, and like normal, each character (save the Rogue) remains flatfooted until their initiative comes up. If you're doing this mid-combat, like the others said, it's a feint, and at best you're looking at once/round, with Improved Feint.
Dragonteuthis 07-31-06, 09:00 AM	Well, it is technically a rule. While concealing your weapon as a free action with a -20 penalty to Sleight of Hand is indeed a rule, the consequences of throwing a previously concealed weapon is not. The surprise rules are seperate and having absolutely nothing to do with concealed weaponry (i.e. the surprise rules work the exact same way whether your weapon is concealed or not). Also, one thing I ommitted in my previous post; with Quick Draw it is a move action to draw a hidden weapon, so AT MOST he'd be doing this once per round. So actually, if you rule that a concealed weapon denies the target their Dexterity bonus to AC, this guy would have to... 1) Make a Sleight of hand check at -16 (-20 for free action, +4 for shuriken) opposed by Spot checks. 2) Quick Draw as a move action 3) Make a single attack as a standard action 4) If he fails, the DC of future attempts increases by 10. Given all that, I'd be tempted to allow it, just to avoid arguing. Honestly, Sneak Attack once per round is no big deal, and it's easier to do with Bluff and Improved Feint. Sorry for double posting; my mind just won't stop working :P. Good luck!
MingThing 07-31-06, 10:40 AM	how about the seraphim throw from planar handbook? (its not in srd, so i wont quote it :( )
Dheran 07-31-06, 01:20 PM	The mechanic this Rogue is trying to use is similar to the "palm a dagger" use for Sleight of Hand detailed on page 122 of Complete Warrior. But there are some severe limitations to this skill use: it's for melee attacks only you need to attack the foe for 3 rounds to get one sneak attack attempt it only works with an off-hand dagger; 2WF penalties apply The feat that comes closest to this mechanic is Flick of the Wrist, also from Complete Warrior. There are limitations to this, too: it's for melee attacks only you get one sneak attack attempt per opponent, per combat it only works with a light weapon With shurikens the Rogue would be limited to 1-2 surprise rounds at the beginning of combat, having nothing to do with Sleight of Hand. Any house rule to allow some extra sneak attack attempts with Sleight of Hand should be no more powerful than these two mechanisms above, and should probably require a custom feat.
ShinAkuma2 07-31-06, 01:20 PM	He could do that if he were a Master Thrower. I'd be wary about granting PrC abilities for free.
Siegfriend 08-01-06, 05:22 PM	The Master Thrower is what started me on finding this out i nthe first place. Why should you be able to do this normally when it's a Master Thrower ability?