Can i make AoO with a bow ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can i make AoO with a bow ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cheatlord
12-22-05, 02:49 PM Hi, i know bows do not qualify as being armed to threaten a nearby square.
But let's look at the Order of the bow initiate (OoBI) from Complete Warrior.
At level 2, he doesn't generate AoO from nearby targets.

Is there a way (class ability or feat) to make AoO with a bow?
I mean, a bow in the hands of an OoBI is as deadly as any greatsword!

Thanks!
SALDAR
12-22-05, 03:32 PM Not within WotC material as far as I know. I believe there was such a feat in a web based feat list that allowed this.
Sledged
12-22-05, 03:36 PM Class ability or feat? Not that I've found, but an Arrow Demon (MM3... I think) can make AoOs with a bow.
Sluagh
12-22-05, 03:42 PM Nothing official, as has been mentioned, but I see no reason why you couldn't develop a feat to allow it... perhaps something like this:
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Base Attack +5 (or more), Dex 16
Allows a character to threaten Attacks of Opportunity within (5 or 10)feet in combat.

Allowing any more range would be grossly overpowered.
Emeramber
12-22-05, 03:44 PM The Arrow Mind spell, recently reprinted in Spell Compendium, specifically allows you to threaten and make AoA with your bow, as well as to avoid AoA for firing your bow. It's only good for a round per casting, but it's an immediate action, so you could cast it when someone is about to provoke and surprise them. It's Ranger 1, Sor/Wiz 1, so a dip into Battle Sorceror might help you.
wonlee76
12-22-05, 03:56 PM The closest thing I can think of is a bow (or maybe it was a specially crafted bow or exotic weapon) in Races of the Wild that could be used as a club. AoO with the club part of the bow.
Lord Schpungus
12-22-05, 06:26 PM I think Peerless Archer in Silver Marches (Very Early 3.0) gets to threaten with a bow at 8th level of the PrC.
Nom
12-22-05, 08:24 PM If you were wielding said bow as an improvised melee weapon, you could. ;)
BladeDrinker
12-22-05, 08:34 PM As mentioned, the Peerless Archer can. But really, why do you need to? If you really want to make a quick AoO, just take quick draw and whack the monster with a big stick.
pres_man
12-22-05, 08:37 PM See if your DM will let you draw an arrow at the end of your turn and use it as improvised weapon for AoO. Then use it for your first shot at the beginning of your next turn (a la legalos).
Dracspero
12-22-05, 08:40 PM The Arrow Mind spell, recently reprinted in Spell Compendium, specifically allows you to threaten and make AoA with your bow, as well as to avoid AoA for firing your bow. It's only good for a round per casting, but it's an immediate action, so you could cast it when someone is about to provoke and surprise them. It's Ranger 1, Sor/Wiz 1, so a dip into Battle Sorceror might help you.

Arrow Mind (CAdv) is a very nice spell. And the duration is actually decent (1 min per level or like that). It also, I believe, has no somatic components and so can be cast in armor with no ASF.
colyn kell
12-22-05, 08:44 PM You could also use an Elven craft longbow from the "Races of the Wild". It is treated as both a bow, and a quarterstaff.
Type2Demon
12-22-05, 09:56 PM You can't AoO with a loaded bow, but you can "Ready" an action with it!

see PH 3.5 pg 160
BobSutan
12-23-05, 12:09 PM As mentioned, the Peerless Archer can. But really, why do you need to? If you really want to make a quick AoO, just take quick draw and whack the monster with a big stick.

Quickdraw treats drawing a sheathed weapon as a free action. Free actions may only be made during your turn within the round. During an AoO you cannot make Free Actions.
RavenDrake
12-23-05, 05:29 PM Quickdraw treats drawing a sheathed weapon as a free action. Free actions may only be made during your turn within the round. During an AoO you cannot make Free Actions.

Um... no.

Free actions can be made anytime. The situation has to warent it(for example, you get bullrushed off of a cliff, does that mean you can't cast Featherfall on yourself?). You make skill checks as free actions all the time not on your turn(usually in reaction to other skills, like Sense Motive vs. Bluff or Spot vs. Hide).

You can rule that Drawing a Weapon must be restricted to your turn, I suppose, if you really want, but unless I missed something,there's no rule agaisnt it...
Edymnion
12-23-05, 05:45 PM Get armor spikes.

Seriously.

If you want to actually believe what the FAQ says (and I usually don't), a character weilding a greatsword can still make an offhand attack with his armor spikes. So, there is no reason at all why an archer with armor spikes can't do the same thing. So, as long as you're wearing them spikes, you can make an offhand attack with them at any time, hence you threaten surrounding squares with a melee attack, hence you can make AoO to your heart's desire, without ever touching your ability to make full archery attacks.

Personally, I don't allow armor spikes to be treated that way, but the FAQ says you can, so ask your DM.
Jherid
12-23-05, 06:12 PM The situation has to warent it(for example, you get bullrushed off of a cliff, does that mean you can't cast Featherfall on yourself?). You make skill checks as free actions all the time not on your turn(usually in reaction to other skills, like Sense Motive vs. Bluff or Spot vs. Hide).

Casting Featherfall is an immediate action. Pg. 86 of Complete Arcane uses it as an example when it explains Swift and Immediate actions in detail.

I'd say a sense motive vs bluff, in a feint most likely, would be a no action, as in it's part of the feint itself.

Normally making a spot or listen check in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a spot or listen check requires a move action, as per the Quick Reconnoiter feat.
Millennium
12-23-05, 06:37 PM If you take Improved Unarmed Strike, then you could make AoOs that way. Granted, this isn't quite the same as making attacks of opportunity with the bow, but it's likely to draw far fewer objections from DMs. For one thing, it's right there in that most core of the core books: the PHB. For another, it gets around the "it doesn't make sense" claim that many DMs are likely to make.

There are some other interesting combinations you could do with this. For example, if you had Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and Point Blank Shot, you could use the Stunning Fist to stun the enemy you used the AoO on, then nail him with an arrow when your turn comes up. The only problem with this tactic is that to do it, you have to either take three feats or one feat and a level of Monk. If you're willing to burn three more feats for Combat Reflexes, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot, you could have quite an interesting tactic going for yourself. Of course, six feats is a hefty cost, but it might work better for a monk/ranger[archery] build.

I think I may have to try this one sometime. The multiclassing penalty would be problematic, but a monk/ranger build with this tactic sounds like it would be worth trying out.
Dracspero
12-23-05, 08:29 PM Why take IUS? There's nothing that says you can't fire a bow while wearing a spiked gauntlet. And the spike, at least, can be magically enhanced.
Edymnion
12-23-05, 09:36 PM Why take IUS? There's nothing that says you can't fire a bow while wearing a spiked gauntlet. And the spike, at least, can be magically enhanced.Actually, there is. If you are firing a bow, both hands are assumed to be doing nothing but firing the bow. Its the same reason you can't get the AC bonus from a buckler in the same round you use that arm to work a weapon. You are either using the buckler, or you are using the other weapon that exact couple of seconds, you can't do both. Same with the guantlet, you are either holding the bow with that hand, or your are using that hand to draw, nock, draw, and loose arrows. You can't do that and wave it around to threaten people with at the same time.

Its why I said armor spikes. By the FAQ, that can include kneeing somebody with the spikes, even while you're swinging away with both hands. So it would work with a bow where a guantlet wouldn't.
Dracspero
12-23-05, 10:32 PM Well, now there's something that says it...your post :D

To be honest, your logic "if you can't defend with a buckler you can't make an AoO with a spiked gauntlet" is excellent. I just wish (as with so many other things) that there were actually official rulings on these sorts of ideas (unless there IS something in writing, in which case forgive my ignorance).
pres_man
12-24-05, 12:14 AM The problem with that is there is no reason why you couldn't hit someone with the hand you are using to hold the bow. The spikes are on the back of the guantlet, not in the palm.
RavenDrake
12-24-05, 09:11 AM Actually, there is. If you are firing a bow, both hands are assumed to be doing nothing but firing the bow. Its the same reason you can't get the AC bonus from a buckler in the same round you use that arm to work a weapon. You are either using the buckler, or you are using the other weapon that exact couple of seconds, you can't do both. Same with the guantlet, you are either holding the bow with that hand, or your are using that hand to draw, nock, draw, and loose arrows. You can't do that and wave it around to threaten people with at the same time.

Its why I said armor spikes. By the FAQ, that can include kneeing somebody with the spikes, even while you're swinging away with both hands. So it would work with a bow where a guantlet wouldn't.

Except the fault in that logic is that you DO maintin the AC bonus of a Buckler while fireing arrows,but that's neither here nor there.

I don't see a problem with using Spiked Gauntlets for the purposes of threatening. There is no logical reason why having spiked gauntlets WOULDN'T let you threaten if you're willing to let them threaten with Armour Spikes, "logic" and "reasoning" be sotted.

The only things that should mitigate this situation are that:

a.) Spiked Gauntlets are cheaper (5gp versus 50gp for Armour Spikes... but then the spikes do much more than the gauntlet, so you're paying as much for thier extra versitility as for the ammount of body covered). Gauntlets only allow strikes, The armour spiked come into play in grapples alot more. Plus, they do more damage, so this is really a non-issue.

b.) Difficulty of weidling. The Spiked Gauntlets are Simple weapons, while the Armour Spikes are Martial Weapons. This is the only thing that would make me reluctant to allow it, since only the Wizard isn't proficient with all simple weapons, but access to martial weapon proficiency without feats is limited to a select few classes(primarily Palidin, Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger).

However, the type of build that would benefit most from this would include one or two levels of at least one of those classes(not to dismiss the Rogue or Sorcerer Archer builds, but most of them are about staying far enough away to avoid drawing AoO from opponents that they won't be making that many themselves).
Dracspero
12-24-05, 10:19 AM Except the fault in that logic is that you DO maintin the AC bonus of a Buckler while fireing arrows,but that's neither here nor there.

Except under the description of buckler it states "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round." (PHB, pg 124).

As the bow requires two hands to use, this counts as using a weapon with that hand.

It IS logical, but logic has little to do with D&D rules :)

By the RAW, you can use a spiked gauntlet to make AoO while wielding a bow.
Tamelo
12-24-05, 11:55 AM Doesn't order of the bow initiate get the ability to threaten with a bow?
Dracspero
12-24-05, 12:53 PM Nope. Just the ability to use the bow without provoking.
Raven Dark
12-24-05, 02:54 PM Try this homebrew feat out and see if it works for your games. :D

Opportunistic Archer
You gain the ability to make attacks of opportunity at range with your bow.

Prerequisite: Dexterity 15, Base Attack Bonus +12, Combat Reflexes, Proficiency in a type of bow

Benefit: Once each round on your turn you may designate a single target within one range increment of your bow. If that target takes any action that would normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you may fire a single arrow at the target at your highest ranged attack bonus. The effects from Combat Reflexes do not stack with this feat (that is you only get a single ranged attack of opportunity per round). You may not make use of this feat if you are flat-footed.

Special: A fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus feats.

What do you guys think?
Rolof
12-24-05, 03:21 PM Wait...I'm a little confused now. I realize that my archery-
oriented ranger can't make AoO with his bow in the middle
of a fight. But the DM HAS been allowing me to make AoO
during surprise rounds, before combat technically starts. (I
took a level of fighter and improved initiative, with the +4 I
already had from dex, my ranger reacts pretty quickly). So
is that legal, or no? I mean I think that's technically an AoO
but it's more of a surprise attack sort of thing, yes?
cheatlord
12-24-05, 03:22 PM Thanks guys for all your answers and theories, i really appreciate it.
Merry Christmas!
pres_man
12-24-05, 04:43 PM I mean I think that's technically an AoO but it's more of a surprise attack sort of thing, yes?
Not sure what you mean. You can certainly use a bow to make an attack for your single action during a surprise round, this is not an AoO. Now if it is a surprise round, then your opponents who haven't got a turn yet, do not threaten, so they wouldn't be able to take an AoO on you for using a bow.
BobSutan
12-24-05, 06:12 PM Um... no.

Free actions can be made anytime. The situation has to warent it(for example, you get bullrushed off of a cliff, does that mean you can't cast Featherfall on yourself?). You make skill checks as free actions all the time not on your turn(usually in reaction to other skills, like Sense Motive vs. Bluff or Spot vs. Hide).

You can rule that Drawing a Weapon must be restricted to your turn, I suppose, if you really want, but unless I missed something,there's no rule agaisnt it...

If I'm not mistaken, this was updated in Complete Arcane with the introduction of Swift Actions and Instantaneous Actions. From the text on page 86:
However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time--even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action (instead of a free action, as stated in the spell description in the Player's Handbook), since the spell can be cast at any time.
Keeping in mind this bit of information and the fact that Quick Draw is a free action, logic follows that free actions can now only be taken on one's turn. The way to mitigate this is to make Quick Draw an immediate action, though that is up to your DM. Come to think of it, does anyone know if WoTC has made available any documentation the shows what has been updated to these new rules?

**Edit**
To further confirm my reasoning that free actions can generally only be taken on one's turn, check out the actual text of what the PHB has to say:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort, and over the span of the round, their impact is so minor that they are considered free. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. For instance, calling out ot your friends for help, dropping an object, and ceasing to concentrate on a spell are all free actions.

The "while taking another action normally" is where I got the part about them only being taken on one's turn.

Also, for skill checks and the like, as the PHB says on page 65, Most skill uses are standard actions, move actions, or full-round actions.

...

Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action. Complete Adventure sheds some additional light on this with the Quick Reconnitor feat on page 112:Normal: Using Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action.

Unfortunately, Complete Adventurer was written before Swift and Instant Actions came about, which if they had been present they would have made the reactive version of the skill checks an instant action (and not written as a free action, doh!).
RavenDrake
12-24-05, 07:51 PM Fair enough... I'm not really fully conversant with the whole Swift, Imediate, and Free action setup as it now stands... I was just starting to understand free actions... :rolleyes:

As for the Buckler... I was under the impression that the "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." part negated the loss of AC when using the bow... otherwise, there is literally no reason to have a buckler, ever.

You know what, I'm about to get sick of the buckler, two weapon defense, armour spike mongolian cluster*censcored* mess that WotC is making of the combat rules... especially since ALL of these problems have been in the system since 3.0, and NONE were properly addressed in 3.5...

That wasn't addressed at anyone in particular, mind.. just general venting on my part...
boolean
12-24-05, 09:51 PM As for the Buckler... I was under the impression that the "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." part negated the loss of AC when using the bow... otherwise, there is literally no reason to have a buckler, ever.

1. It's a shield bonus, and therefore applies while flat-footed. If you get surprised, or lose initiative, you get a useful AC benefit.

2. Sometimes, like it or not, archers find themselves in melee. When you have to drop (or stow) your bow and draw a sword, having a shield ready without needing to take a move action to ready it can be a lifesaver.

IMO, the "without penalty" in the buckler description only means that the -1 to attack rolls doesn't apply.
Rendvermin
12-26-05, 11:55 PM Not quite the same, but isn't there a crossbow that has two giant razor blades on it that lets you AoO? I want to say it's in the A&EG...
Sceadeau
12-27-05, 02:22 PM Technically, if you were wearing Armor Spikes...you now threaten the area around you. If someone then walked away from your threatened space, it would provoke an AoO. You make take this AoO with any weapon you chose (knowing of course, taking it with a bow will very likely provoke an AoO right back at you).

A cookie to anyone who uses the SRD to prove this wrong.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cheatlord 12-22-05, 02:49 PM	Hi, i know bows do not qualify as being armed to threaten a nearby square. But let's look at the Order of the bow initiate (OoBI) from Complete Warrior. At level 2, he doesn't generate AoO from nearby targets. Is there a way (class ability or feat) to make AoO with a bow? I mean, a bow in the hands of an OoBI is as deadly as any greatsword! Thanks!
SALDAR 12-22-05, 03:32 PM	Not within WotC material as far as I know. I believe there was such a feat in a web based feat list that allowed this.
Sledged 12-22-05, 03:36 PM	Class ability or feat? Not that I've found, but an Arrow Demon (MM3... I think) can make AoOs with a bow.
Sluagh 12-22-05, 03:42 PM	Nothing official, as has been mentioned, but I see no reason why you couldn't develop a feat to allow it... perhaps something like this: Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Base Attack +5 (or more), Dex 16 Allows a character to threaten Attacks of Opportunity within (5 or 10)feet in combat. Allowing any more range would be grossly overpowered.
Emeramber 12-22-05, 03:44 PM	The Arrow Mind spell, recently reprinted in Spell Compendium, specifically allows you to threaten and make AoA with your bow, as well as to avoid AoA for firing your bow. It's only good for a round per casting, but it's an immediate action, so you could cast it when someone is about to provoke and surprise them. It's Ranger 1, Sor/Wiz 1, so a dip into Battle Sorceror might help you.
wonlee76 12-22-05, 03:56 PM	The closest thing I can think of is a bow (or maybe it was a specially crafted bow or exotic weapon) in Races of the Wild that could be used as a club. AoO with the club part of the bow.
Lord Schpungus 12-22-05, 06:26 PM	I think Peerless Archer in Silver Marches (Very Early 3.0) gets to threaten with a bow at 8th level of the PrC.
Nom 12-22-05, 08:24 PM	If you were wielding said bow as an improvised melee weapon, you could. ;)
BladeDrinker 12-22-05, 08:34 PM	As mentioned, the Peerless Archer can. But really, why do you need to? If you really want to make a quick AoO, just take quick draw and whack the monster with a big stick.
pres_man 12-22-05, 08:37 PM	See if your DM will let you draw an arrow at the end of your turn and use it as improvised weapon for AoO. Then use it for your first shot at the beginning of your next turn (a la legalos).
Dracspero 12-22-05, 08:40 PM	The Arrow Mind spell, recently reprinted in Spell Compendium, specifically allows you to threaten and make AoA with your bow, as well as to avoid AoA for firing your bow. It's only good for a round per casting, but it's an immediate action, so you could cast it when someone is about to provoke and surprise them. It's Ranger 1, Sor/Wiz 1, so a dip into Battle Sorceror might help you. Arrow Mind (CAdv) is a very nice spell. And the duration is actually decent (1 min per level or like that). It also, I believe, has no somatic components and so can be cast in armor with no ASF.
colyn kell 12-22-05, 08:44 PM	You could also use an Elven craft longbow from the "Races of the Wild". It is treated as both a bow, and a quarterstaff.
Type2Demon 12-22-05, 09:56 PM	You can't AoO with a loaded bow, but you can "Ready" an action with it! see PH 3.5 pg 160
BobSutan 12-23-05, 12:09 PM	As mentioned, the Peerless Archer can. But really, why do you need to? If you really want to make a quick AoO, just take quick draw and whack the monster with a big stick. Quickdraw treats drawing a sheathed weapon as a free action. Free actions may only be made during your turn within the round. During an AoO you cannot make Free Actions.
RavenDrake 12-23-05, 05:29 PM	Quickdraw treats drawing a sheathed weapon as a free action. Free actions may only be made during your turn within the round. During an AoO you cannot make Free Actions. Um... no. Free actions can be made anytime. The situation has to warent it(for example, you get bullrushed off of a cliff, does that mean you can't cast Featherfall on yourself?). You make skill checks as free actions all the time not on your turn(usually in reaction to other skills, like Sense Motive vs. Bluff or Spot vs. Hide). You can rule that Drawing a Weapon must be restricted to your turn, I suppose, if you really want, but unless I missed something,there's no rule agaisnt it...
Edymnion 12-23-05, 05:45 PM	Get armor spikes. Seriously. If you want to actually believe what the FAQ says (and I usually don't), a character weilding a greatsword can still make an offhand attack with his armor spikes. So, there is no reason at all why an archer with armor spikes can't do the same thing. So, as long as you're wearing them spikes, you can make an offhand attack with them at any time, hence you threaten surrounding squares with a melee attack, hence you can make AoO to your heart's desire, without ever touching your ability to make full archery attacks. Personally, I don't allow armor spikes to be treated that way, but the FAQ says you can, so ask your DM.
Jherid 12-23-05, 06:12 PM	The situation has to warent it(for example, you get bullrushed off of a cliff, does that mean you can't cast Featherfall on yourself?). You make skill checks as free actions all the time not on your turn(usually in reaction to other skills, like Sense Motive vs. Bluff or Spot vs. Hide). Casting Featherfall is an immediate action. Pg. 86 of Complete Arcane uses it as an example when it explains Swift and Immediate actions in detail. I'd say a sense motive vs bluff, in a feint most likely, would be a no action, as in it's part of the feint itself. Normally making a spot or listen check in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a spot or listen check requires a move action, as per the Quick Reconnoiter feat.
Millennium 12-23-05, 06:37 PM	If you take Improved Unarmed Strike, then you could make AoOs that way. Granted, this isn't quite the same as making attacks of opportunity with the bow, but it's likely to draw far fewer objections from DMs. For one thing, it's right there in that most core of the core books: the PHB. For another, it gets around the "it doesn't make sense" claim that many DMs are likely to make. There are some other interesting combinations you could do with this. For example, if you had Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and Point Blank Shot, you could use the Stunning Fist to stun the enemy you used the AoO on, then nail him with an arrow when your turn comes up. The only problem with this tactic is that to do it, you have to either take three feats or one feat and a level of Monk. If you're willing to burn three more feats for Combat Reflexes, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot, you could have quite an interesting tactic going for yourself. Of course, six feats is a hefty cost, but it might work better for a monk/ranger[archery] build. I think I may have to try this one sometime. The multiclassing penalty would be problematic, but a monk/ranger build with this tactic sounds like it would be worth trying out.
Dracspero 12-23-05, 08:29 PM	Why take IUS? There's nothing that says you can't fire a bow while wearing a spiked gauntlet. And the spike, at least, can be magically enhanced.
Edymnion 12-23-05, 09:36 PM	Why take IUS? There's nothing that says you can't fire a bow while wearing a spiked gauntlet. And the spike, at least, can be magically enhanced.Actually, there is. If you are firing a bow, both hands are assumed to be doing nothing but firing the bow. Its the same reason you can't get the AC bonus from a buckler in the same round you use that arm to work a weapon. You are either using the buckler, or you are using the other weapon that exact couple of seconds, you can't do both. Same with the guantlet, you are either holding the bow with that hand, or your are using that hand to draw, nock, draw, and loose arrows. You can't do that and wave it around to threaten people with at the same time. Its why I said armor spikes. By the FAQ, that can include kneeing somebody with the spikes, even while you're swinging away with both hands. So it would work with a bow where a guantlet wouldn't.
Dracspero 12-23-05, 10:32 PM	Well, now there's something that says it...your post :D To be honest, your logic "if you can't defend with a buckler you can't make an AoO with a spiked gauntlet" is excellent. I just wish (as with so many other things) that there were actually official rulings on these sorts of ideas (unless there IS something in writing, in which case forgive my ignorance).
pres_man 12-24-05, 12:14 AM	The problem with that is there is no reason why you couldn't hit someone with the hand you are using to hold the bow. The spikes are on the back of the guantlet, not in the palm.
RavenDrake 12-24-05, 09:11 AM	Actually, there is. If you are firing a bow, both hands are assumed to be doing nothing but firing the bow. Its the same reason you can't get the AC bonus from a buckler in the same round you use that arm to work a weapon. You are either using the buckler, or you are using the other weapon that exact couple of seconds, you can't do both. Same with the guantlet, you are either holding the bow with that hand, or your are using that hand to draw, nock, draw, and loose arrows. You can't do that and wave it around to threaten people with at the same time. Its why I said armor spikes. By the FAQ, that can include kneeing somebody with the spikes, even while you're swinging away with both hands. So it would work with a bow where a guantlet wouldn't. Except the fault in that logic is that you DO maintin the AC bonus of a Buckler while fireing arrows,but that's neither here nor there. I don't see a problem with using Spiked Gauntlets for the purposes of threatening. There is no logical reason why having spiked gauntlets WOULDN'T let you threaten if you're willing to let them threaten with Armour Spikes, "logic" and "reasoning" be sotted. The only things that should mitigate this situation are that: a.) Spiked Gauntlets are cheaper (5gp versus 50gp for Armour Spikes... but then the spikes do much more than the gauntlet, so you're paying as much for thier extra versitility as for the ammount of body covered). Gauntlets only allow strikes, The armour spiked come into play in grapples alot more. Plus, they do more damage, so this is really a non-issue. b.) Difficulty of weidling. The Spiked Gauntlets are Simple weapons, while the Armour Spikes are Martial Weapons. This is the only thing that would make me reluctant to allow it, since only the Wizard isn't proficient with all simple weapons, but access to martial weapon proficiency without feats is limited to a select few classes(primarily Palidin, Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger). However, the type of build that would benefit most from this would include one or two levels of at least one of those classes(not to dismiss the Rogue or Sorcerer Archer builds, but most of them are about staying far enough away to avoid drawing AoO from opponents that they won't be making that many themselves).
Dracspero 12-24-05, 10:19 AM	Except the fault in that logic is that you DO maintin the AC bonus of a Buckler while fireing arrows,but that's neither here nor there. Except under the description of buckler it states "In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round." (PHB, pg 124). As the bow requires two hands to use, this counts as using a weapon with that hand. It IS logical, but logic has little to do with D&D rules :) By the RAW, you can use a spiked gauntlet to make AoO while wielding a bow.
Tamelo 12-24-05, 11:55 AM	Doesn't order of the bow initiate get the ability to threaten with a bow?
Dracspero 12-24-05, 12:53 PM	Nope. Just the ability to use the bow without provoking.
Raven Dark 12-24-05, 02:54 PM	Try this homebrew feat out and see if it works for your games. :D Opportunistic Archer You gain the ability to make attacks of opportunity at range with your bow. Prerequisite: Dexterity 15, Base Attack Bonus +12, Combat Reflexes, Proficiency in a type of bow Benefit: Once each round on your turn you may designate a single target within one range increment of your bow. If that target takes any action that would normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you may fire a single arrow at the target at your highest ranged attack bonus. The effects from Combat Reflexes do not stack with this feat (that is you only get a single ranged attack of opportunity per round). You may not make use of this feat if you are flat-footed. Special: A fighter may take this feat as one of his bonus feats. What do you guys think?
Rolof 12-24-05, 03:21 PM	Wait...I'm a little confused now. I realize that my archery- oriented ranger can't make AoO with his bow in the middle of a fight. But the DM HAS been allowing me to make AoO during surprise rounds, before combat technically starts. (I took a level of fighter and improved initiative, with the +4 I already had from dex, my ranger reacts pretty quickly). So is that legal, or no? I mean I think that's technically an AoO but it's more of a surprise attack sort of thing, yes?
cheatlord 12-24-05, 03:22 PM	Thanks guys for all your answers and theories, i really appreciate it. Merry Christmas!
pres_man 12-24-05, 04:43 PM	I mean I think that's technically an AoO but it's more of a surprise attack sort of thing, yes? Not sure what you mean. You can certainly use a bow to make an attack for your single action during a surprise round, this is not an AoO. Now if it is a surprise round, then your opponents who haven't got a turn yet, do not threaten, so they wouldn't be able to take an AoO on you for using a bow.
BobSutan 12-24-05, 06:12 PM	Um... no. Free actions can be made anytime. The situation has to warent it(for example, you get bullrushed off of a cliff, does that mean you can't cast Featherfall on yourself?). You make skill checks as free actions all the time not on your turn(usually in reaction to other skills, like Sense Motive vs. Bluff or Spot vs. Hide). You can rule that Drawing a Weapon must be restricted to your turn, I suppose, if you really want, but unless I missed something,there's no rule agaisnt it... If I'm not mistaken, this was updated in Complete Arcane with the introduction of Swift Actions and Instantaneous Actions. From the text on page 86: However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time--even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action (instead of a free action, as stated in the spell description in the Player's Handbook), since the spell can be cast at any time. Keeping in mind this bit of information and the fact that Quick Draw is a free action, logic follows that free actions can now only be taken on one's turn. The way to mitigate this is to make Quick Draw an immediate action, though that is up to your DM. Come to think of it, does anyone know if WoTC has made available any documentation the shows what has been updated to these new rules? Edit To further confirm my reasoning that free actions can generally only be taken on one's turn, check out the actual text of what the PHB has to say: Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort, and over the span of the round, their impact is so minor that they are considered free. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free. For instance, calling out ot your friends for help, dropping an object, and ceasing to concentrate on a spell are all free actions. The "while taking another action normally" is where I got the part about them only being taken on one's turn. Also, for skill checks and the like, as the PHB says on page 65, Most skill uses are standard actions, move actions, or full-round actions. ... Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action. Complete Adventure sheds some additional light on this with the Quick Reconnitor feat on page 112:Normal: Using Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action. Unfortunately, Complete Adventurer was written before Swift and Instant Actions came about, which if they had been present they would have made the reactive version of the skill checks an instant action (and not written as a free action, doh!).
RavenDrake 12-24-05, 07:51 PM	Fair enough... I'm not really fully conversant with the whole Swift, Imediate, and Free action setup as it now stands... I was just starting to understand free actions... :rolleyes: As for the Buckler... I was under the impression that the "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." part negated the loss of AC when using the bow... otherwise, there is literally no reason to have a buckler, ever. You know what, I'm about to get sick of the buckler, two weapon defense, armour spike mongolian clustercenscored mess that WotC is making of the combat rules... especially since ALL of these problems have been in the system since 3.0, and NONE were properly addressed in 3.5... That wasn't addressed at anyone in particular, mind.. just general venting on my part...
boolean 12-24-05, 09:51 PM	As for the Buckler... I was under the impression that the "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it." part negated the loss of AC when using the bow... otherwise, there is literally no reason to have a buckler, ever. 1. It's a shield bonus, and therefore applies while flat-footed. If you get surprised, or lose initiative, you get a useful AC benefit. 2. Sometimes, like it or not, archers find themselves in melee. When you have to drop (or stow) your bow and draw a sword, having a shield ready without needing to take a move action to ready it can be a lifesaver. IMO, the "without penalty" in the buckler description only means that the -1 to attack rolls doesn't apply.
Rendvermin 12-26-05, 11:55 PM	Not quite the same, but isn't there a crossbow that has two giant razor blades on it that lets you AoO? I want to say it's in the A&EG...
Sceadeau 12-27-05, 02:22 PM	Technically, if you were wearing Armor Spikes...you now threaten the area around you. If someone then walked away from your threatened space, it would provoke an AoO. You make take this AoO with any weapon you chose (knowing of course, taking it with a bow will very likely provoke an AoO right back at you). A cookie to anyone who uses the SRD to prove this wrong.