Can I sunder natural weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can I sunder natural weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Happosai
10-28-04, 06:06 PM I know that I can sunder weapons, shields and other worn or carried items but no armor, but can I sunder also natural weapons, e.g. a monk's fists or a dragon's claws?
Marros
10-28-04, 06:17 PM The official rules say you can't, you might be able to make a ruling for it. If you do enough sunder damage, the natural could not be used, and they take some hit point damage as well. The dragon's claws would have a hardness though...

This could get pretty complicated. I sggest called shots instead (there are rules for those somewhere).
Thorak
10-28-04, 06:22 PM No, for the same reason you can't say "I hit him in the neck". Because it's too easy for the opponent to adjust slightly and make you miss your target and hit something else. Claws are pretty darn small; a weapon's a bigger target.

If I had a PC who really wanted to do it, though, I'd allow it. Sunder as per normal, no hardness, HP same as the creature...
Happosai
10-28-04, 06:33 PM OK, but you can also sunder small things like daggers or slings and they are as fast as the movement or the hand that holds it. Anyway, it's the official rule and Marros is right about the complications.
I just looked for something to 'disarm' a monk or other enemy attacking with natural weapons and then I remembered Gladiator, the scene where someones hand is cut by a gladius and thought that it should be possible.
FitzNighteyes
10-28-04, 07:07 PM If I had a PC who really wanted to do it, though, I'd allow it. Sunder as per normal, no hardness, HP same as the creature...In other words, a lvl 20 fighter only needs to beat the lvl 20 wizard in an opposed roll instead of hitting the AC?
Combined with you allowing more than one Sunder per round, that could be a big loophole.
CzarGarrett
10-28-04, 07:23 PM I'd allow a sundering if someone had a vorpral weapon and the natural weapon was on the head.
Sucineri
10-28-04, 07:29 PM I don't like vorpal being just decapitation..it's stupid to me. My old group used to talk about how their character used to have a vorpal weapon and would hack at someone's leg and their head would pop off.

I say if you have a vorpal weapon and you want to go for an appendage instead..then go for it..same rules..just don't apply the head thing, heh.
Thorak
10-28-04, 08:33 PM In other words, a lvl 20 fighter only needs to beat the lvl 20 wizard in an opposed roll instead of hitting the AC?
Combined with you allowing more than one Sunder per round, that could be a big loophole.
That's a valid point. I'd also require a to-hit roll, since you're trying to hit the creature in question.

I think it's also an even better response as to why you shouldn't be able to. I only posted my option as what I would use as an alternative houserule if I allowed it, which I probably wouldn't.
Silimaure
10-29-04, 01:49 AM Sundering, as discribed in the D&D world, is really just striking an object that the opponent has, are the claws, tentacles, whatever really objects?

I would not rule in any campaign that you could sunder natural weapons, likes like being able to sunder any part of a monk. Maybe, in the rare possiblity of called shots would I allow it.
Failut
10-29-04, 02:21 AM OK, but you can also sunder small things like daggers or slings and they are as fast as the movement or the hand that holds it. Anyway, it's the official rule and Marros is right about the complications.
I just looked for something to 'disarm' a monk or other enemy attacking with natural weapons and then I remembered Gladiator, the scene where someones hand is cut by a gladius and thought that it should be possible.

The think to remember with monk's is that 'disarming' his hand is not going to do much at all. He will just headbut, kick, elbow, knee, etc.. to do damage after that.
Draco Strang
10-29-04, 09:07 AM I know that I can sunder weapons, shields and other worn or carried items but no armor, but can I sunder also natural weapons, e.g. a monk's fists or a dragon's claws?

Honestly now, I think you guys are missing the point......

If you sunder someone's natural weapon, can you imagine how bad that's gonna hurt ?
Count Arioch the 28th
10-29-04, 09:28 AM You can summon certain natural attacks. The monster manual entry will say when you can.

for example, you can sunder a Hydra's heads, or a kraken's tentacles. There are other examples.

However, it is assumed that you can't sunder a natural weapon unless it's specifically spelled out.

If not, then fighters would be screwed, because the monsters would just sunder their arms and move on. (Not that they're not screwed already, but it can always get worse.)
CruelDM
10-29-04, 10:06 AM In those few examples of being able to remove creatures body parts (Hydra, Kracken etc.) if I remember correctly without looking them up, it is more like a called shot. Dont you have to target a part, overcome the creatures full AC, and deal a specific amount of damage that doesnt count towards the creatures full HP total?

Like I said, I didnt take time to look it up, but I seem to recall this to be the case.
tarkin
10-29-04, 11:47 AM Actually, officially you can Sunder Natural weapons. It works just like a normal Sunder does:

1) Provoke an AoO (unless you have the feat)
2) Make an opposed attack roll (Note the feat Improved Sunder specifies something carried/worn for the +4, so it does not apply)
3) If you beat the defender, apply damage to the victim.

When sundering a weapon you use the Hardness and full hitpoints derived from a tables.

When sundering a creature you use the DR of the victim and their hitpoints. That is their FULL hitpoints, not a portion/fraction thereof

Just as when trying to cut the hilt of a sword off you must defeat a sword's entire hitpoints, not just the fraction of them in the hilt, you must defeat a creatures' entire hitpoints left, not "just a fraction of them in the natural weapon".

Finally, sundered natural weapons can be healed back.

Those of you that can think should easily realize that this means Sundering a natural weapon is a stupid thing to try, it only works if you would have killed the creature anyway.
Thorak
10-29-04, 01:13 PM Tarkin, like Fitz pointed out, this lets a character with Improved Sunder make opposed attack rolls against obscenely-high-AC enemies to hit them with greater ease, which seems wrong. if your BAB is 10, their AC is 30, and their BAB is 10, you've got a 5% chance of hitting them, with a natural 20. And you've got a 50% chance of beating an opposed attack roll and hitting them. That's an issue. Especially since an AC of 30's not too hard to get (heavy shield and full plate +5 each does it, without dex or other AC boosts considered) for a character with a 10 BAB.
Melpomene
10-29-04, 01:17 PM I would vote against broad-spectrum allowing of natural weapon sunderings.
The reasons being
A.) That some creatures, such as the Kraken, have specific sundering rules associated with them.
and B.) Called shots to location garner a type of "half power attack" (Or they did in 3.0, anyway) where you could take, say, a -4 penalty to gain +2 damage.
FitzNighteyes
10-29-04, 01:58 PM When sundering a creature you use the DR of the victim and their hitpoints. That is their FULL hitpoints, not a portion/fraction thereof[/i]Do you mean in a single attack? I.E. - Their Hps = Hardness.
CruelDM
10-29-04, 02:26 PM I think he meant their DR is their hardness, their total HP is the natural weapons HP, and that even if you did do their total HP in damage and successfully sundered the claw, talon whatever, the creature would still have its full HP, but be missing 1 of its natural attacks.

Sorry Tarkin if I am mistaken by what you meant. This makes semi sense though when comparing it to severing a Hydras head for example. Note, however, that even a Hydras head doesnt have the creatures full HP, but if severed, the damage doesnt count against the Hydras HP total.
Krelios
10-29-04, 02:51 PM I think he meant their DR is their hardness, their total HP is the natural weapons HP, and that even if you did do their total HP in damage and successfully sundered the claw, talon whatever, the creature would still have its full HP, but be missing 1 of its natural attacks.

Sorry Tarkin if I am mistaken by what you meant. This makes semi sense though when comparing it to severing a Hydras head for example. Note, however, that even a Hydras head doesnt have the creatures full HP, but if severed, the damage doesnt count against the Hydras HP total.
No, what Tarkin meant was in order to sunder an opponents hand/bite/etc you'd have to do their full HP damage to them to successfully sunder, at which point they're dead, so it doesn't matter.

Of course, that's a reasonable interpretation, but the RAW say no sundering natural attacks. In the case of the Hydra, the damage you do attempting to sever its head is not a sunder attack and it DOES count toward the total hp of the creature. Which makes sense, because I'm pretty sure chopping a monster's head off should count as damage.
CruelDM
10-29-04, 04:25 PM Ok, I had to look it up because I had been speaking from memory. A Hydra with 100hp and 5 heads- Each head would have 20hp, the body 100. If a head is severed the body only takes 10 hp, not the full amount of damage dealt to the head. To sever a head you have to make a succesful sunder attempt.

To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him. Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points.

If you were to allow sundering of body parts the precedence is set, just divide total hp by number of extremeties (a 2 armed 2 legged man with 50 hp would have 10 hp per arm, leg and head) It would take 10 hp slashing damage with a successful sunder to dismember him. All characters could target the head and be vorpal players! Any extremety severed would take 5 off the HP total (except the head, the opponant would be dead)
Count Arioch the 28th
10-29-04, 07:05 PM However, that really nerfs fighters, so I don't recomend it.

My reason? First off, imp. sunder gives you +4 to hit.

Second, monsters almost always have higher BaB and damage than the fighter will.

So, your fighters can get their arms lopped off, and heads lopped off every fight, and be even more useless.
Cathon
10-29-04, 07:49 PM Hmm, this reminds me of a recent game with the inexperienced group I was with. They were attacked by a gargantuan monstrous centipede, and a character readied an attack to strike it when it was in range. The centipede had reach due to its size and therefore never actually came within range of his sword, but he argued as to how a creature with only natural weapons can attack him without coming into range of his sword. I basically left it at the idea that there was no mechanism for attacking a creature's mandibles in the game, and I didn't want to deal with introducing called shots. It might have made him feel better, however, if he'd been able to attempt to sunder the mandibles when they got close. Perhaps if he'd done enough damage I could have given the centipede a minus on its attacks.

One of those things I think I could have handled better, but I'm still not exactly sure how.
Tony Vargas
10-29-04, 08:29 PM Not much to add. The simplest answer, to me, seems to be that, in most cases, sundering a natural weapon is just attacking the 'wielder' - so the sunder mechanic simply doesn't aply.

Clearly there are some monsters where that's not the case, and they have thier own rules. A DM could also house rule the hardness & hps of a natural weapon - like a horn, say - that could be sundered without particularly harming the creature it's part of.

The other point worth thinking about is a readied attack against a creature with superior reach. It's not covered in the rules, but it does make sense to allow an attack against something that someone else is trying to violently introduce to your internal organs - whether it's a spear, sword or claw - whatever it is, it's certainly going to be within your reach at some point. In the case of an armed advesary, the only options would seem to be something like sunder or disarm. In the case of one using a natural weapon, a regular attack would make just as much sense.

In any case, making a sunder attempt as an end-run around a creatures AC would be a no-no, so don't fall for that. If you do want to allow the sunder mechanic as a way of putting damage on a natural-weapon-using enemy, at least use it's AC as a 'floor' for it's opposed check: If you beat the oppossed check, but not the AC, the sunder attempt succeeds, in the sense that you do get a solid swing at the creature's tentacle/claw/whatever, but fails to do any actual damage.
PlasmaBunny
10-29-04, 09:49 PM If ya really want to sunder an opponents natural weapon, I would do this:

Begin sunder as normal, attack of opportunity.
When you make an opposed attack roll, add the enemy's Natural armor bonuses to their attack roll. (optionally, you may choose to add dex/dodge and deflection bonusses to this roll, its really at your discretion)

Roll damage normally, if you deal more damage than your enemy's constitution score, you injure their natural weapon, causing them to suffer a -2 circumstance penalty to their attack rolls with that natural weapon until they receive 1 point of magical healing or suceed a dc 20 heal check. This circumstance penalty does not stack. This will not work on enemy's that are immune to critical hits.

Regardless if you do enough damage to injure the natural weapon, you deal 1d6 damage to the creature who's natural weapon you were sundering.
Golchocobo
09-05-05, 06:28 PM If ya really want to sunder an opponents natural weapon, I would do this:

Begin sunder as normal, attack of opportunity.
When you make an opposed attack roll, add the enemy's Natural armor bonuses to their attack roll. (optionally, you may choose to add dex/dodge and deflection bonusses to this roll, its really at your discretion)

Roll damage normally, if you deal more damage than your enemy's constitution score, you injure their natural weapon, causing them to suffer a -2 circumstance penalty to their attack rolls with that natural weapon until they receive 1 point of magical healing or suceed a dc 20 heal check. This circumstance penalty does not stack. This will not work on enemy's that are immune to critical hits.

Regardless if you do enough damage to injure the natural weapon, you deal 1d6 damage to the creature who's natural weapon you were sundering.

I've wondered about this topic for a while... this is almost exactly what I came up with. Except for the last part.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Happosai 10-28-04, 06:06 PM	I know that I can sunder weapons, shields and other worn or carried items but no armor, but can I sunder also natural weapons, e.g. a monk's fists or a dragon's claws?
Marros 10-28-04, 06:17 PM	The official rules say you can't, you might be able to make a ruling for it. If you do enough sunder damage, the natural could not be used, and they take some hit point damage as well. The dragon's claws would have a hardness though... This could get pretty complicated. I sggest called shots instead (there are rules for those somewhere).
Thorak 10-28-04, 06:22 PM	No, for the same reason you can't say "I hit him in the neck". Because it's too easy for the opponent to adjust slightly and make you miss your target and hit something else. Claws are pretty darn small; a weapon's a bigger target. If I had a PC who really wanted to do it, though, I'd allow it. Sunder as per normal, no hardness, HP same as the creature...
Happosai 10-28-04, 06:33 PM	OK, but you can also sunder small things like daggers or slings and they are as fast as the movement or the hand that holds it. Anyway, it's the official rule and Marros is right about the complications. I just looked for something to 'disarm' a monk or other enemy attacking with natural weapons and then I remembered Gladiator, the scene where someones hand is cut by a gladius and thought that it should be possible.
FitzNighteyes 10-28-04, 07:07 PM	If I had a PC who really wanted to do it, though, I'd allow it. Sunder as per normal, no hardness, HP same as the creature...In other words, a lvl 20 fighter only needs to beat the lvl 20 wizard in an opposed roll instead of hitting the AC? Combined with you allowing more than one Sunder per round, that could be a big loophole.
CzarGarrett 10-28-04, 07:23 PM	I'd allow a sundering if someone had a vorpral weapon and the natural weapon was on the head.
Sucineri 10-28-04, 07:29 PM	I don't like vorpal being just decapitation..it's stupid to me. My old group used to talk about how their character used to have a vorpal weapon and would hack at someone's leg and their head would pop off. I say if you have a vorpal weapon and you want to go for an appendage instead..then go for it..same rules..just don't apply the head thing, heh.
Thorak 10-28-04, 08:33 PM	In other words, a lvl 20 fighter only needs to beat the lvl 20 wizard in an opposed roll instead of hitting the AC? Combined with you allowing more than one Sunder per round, that could be a big loophole. That's a valid point. I'd also require a to-hit roll, since you're trying to hit the creature in question. I think it's also an even better response as to why you shouldn't be able to. I only posted my option as what I would use as an alternative houserule if I allowed it, which I probably wouldn't.
Silimaure 10-29-04, 01:49 AM	Sundering, as discribed in the D&D world, is really just striking an object that the opponent has, are the claws, tentacles, whatever really objects? I would not rule in any campaign that you could sunder natural weapons, likes like being able to sunder any part of a monk. Maybe, in the rare possiblity of called shots would I allow it.
Failut 10-29-04, 02:21 AM	OK, but you can also sunder small things like daggers or slings and they are as fast as the movement or the hand that holds it. Anyway, it's the official rule and Marros is right about the complications. I just looked for something to 'disarm' a monk or other enemy attacking with natural weapons and then I remembered Gladiator, the scene where someones hand is cut by a gladius and thought that it should be possible. The think to remember with monk's is that 'disarming' his hand is not going to do much at all. He will just headbut, kick, elbow, knee, etc.. to do damage after that.
Draco Strang 10-29-04, 09:07 AM	I know that I can sunder weapons, shields and other worn or carried items but no armor, but can I sunder also natural weapons, e.g. a monk's fists or a dragon's claws? Honestly now, I think you guys are missing the point...... If you sunder someone's natural weapon, can you imagine how bad that's gonna hurt ?
Count Arioch the 28th 10-29-04, 09:28 AM	You can summon certain natural attacks. The monster manual entry will say when you can. for example, you can sunder a Hydra's heads, or a kraken's tentacles. There are other examples. However, it is assumed that you can't sunder a natural weapon unless it's specifically spelled out. If not, then fighters would be screwed, because the monsters would just sunder their arms and move on. (Not that they're not screwed already, but it can always get worse.)
CruelDM 10-29-04, 10:06 AM	In those few examples of being able to remove creatures body parts (Hydra, Kracken etc.) if I remember correctly without looking them up, it is more like a called shot. Dont you have to target a part, overcome the creatures full AC, and deal a specific amount of damage that doesnt count towards the creatures full HP total? Like I said, I didnt take time to look it up, but I seem to recall this to be the case.
tarkin 10-29-04, 11:47 AM	Actually, officially you can Sunder Natural weapons. It works just like a normal Sunder does: 1) Provoke an AoO (unless you have the feat) 2) Make an opposed attack roll (Note the feat Improved Sunder specifies something carried/worn for the +4, so it does not apply) 3) If you beat the defender, apply damage to the victim. When sundering a weapon you use the Hardness and full hitpoints derived from a tables. When sundering a creature you use the DR of the victim and their hitpoints. That is their FULL hitpoints, not a portion/fraction thereof Just as when trying to cut the hilt of a sword off you must defeat a sword's entire hitpoints, not just the fraction of them in the hilt, you must defeat a creatures' entire hitpoints left, not "just a fraction of them in the natural weapon". Finally, sundered natural weapons can be healed back. Those of you that can think should easily realize that this means Sundering a natural weapon is a stupid thing to try, it only works if you would have killed the creature anyway.
Thorak 10-29-04, 01:13 PM	Tarkin, like Fitz pointed out, this lets a character with Improved Sunder make opposed attack rolls against obscenely-high-AC enemies to hit them with greater ease, which seems wrong. if your BAB is 10, their AC is 30, and their BAB is 10, you've got a 5% chance of hitting them, with a natural 20. And you've got a 50% chance of beating an opposed attack roll and hitting them. That's an issue. Especially since an AC of 30's not too hard to get (heavy shield and full plate +5 each does it, without dex or other AC boosts considered) for a character with a 10 BAB.
Melpomene 10-29-04, 01:17 PM	I would vote against broad-spectrum allowing of natural weapon sunderings. The reasons being A.) That some creatures, such as the Kraken, have specific sundering rules associated with them. and B.) Called shots to location garner a type of "half power attack" (Or they did in 3.0, anyway) where you could take, say, a -4 penalty to gain +2 damage.
FitzNighteyes 10-29-04, 01:58 PM	When sundering a creature you use the DR of the victim and their hitpoints. That is their FULL hitpoints, not a portion/fraction thereof[/i]Do you mean in a single attack? I.E. - Their Hps = Hardness.
CruelDM 10-29-04, 02:26 PM	I think he meant their DR is their hardness, their total HP is the natural weapons HP, and that even if you did do their total HP in damage and successfully sundered the claw, talon whatever, the creature would still have its full HP, but be missing 1 of its natural attacks. Sorry Tarkin if I am mistaken by what you meant. This makes semi sense though when comparing it to severing a Hydras head for example. Note, however, that even a Hydras head doesnt have the creatures full HP, but if severed, the damage doesnt count against the Hydras HP total.
Krelios 10-29-04, 02:51 PM	I think he meant their DR is their hardness, their total HP is the natural weapons HP, and that even if you did do their total HP in damage and successfully sundered the claw, talon whatever, the creature would still have its full HP, but be missing 1 of its natural attacks. Sorry Tarkin if I am mistaken by what you meant. This makes semi sense though when comparing it to severing a Hydras head for example. Note, however, that even a Hydras head doesnt have the creatures full HP, but if severed, the damage doesnt count against the Hydras HP total. No, what Tarkin meant was in order to sunder an opponents hand/bite/etc you'd have to do their full HP damage to them to successfully sunder, at which point they're dead, so it doesn't matter. Of course, that's a reasonable interpretation, but the RAW say no sundering natural attacks. In the case of the Hydra, the damage you do attempting to sever its head is not a sunder attack and it DOES count toward the total hp of the creature. Which makes sense, because I'm pretty sure chopping a monster's head off should count as damage.
CruelDM 10-29-04, 04:25 PM	Ok, I had to look it up because I had been speaking from memory. A Hydra with 100hp and 5 heads- Each head would have 20hp, the body 100. If a head is severed the body only takes 10 hp, not the full amount of damage dealt to the head. To sever a head you have to make a succesful sunder attempt. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him. Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. If you were to allow sundering of body parts the precedence is set, just divide total hp by number of extremeties (a 2 armed 2 legged man with 50 hp would have 10 hp per arm, leg and head) It would take 10 hp slashing damage with a successful sunder to dismember him. All characters could target the head and be vorpal players! Any extremety severed would take 5 off the HP total (except the head, the opponant would be dead)
Count Arioch the 28th 10-29-04, 07:05 PM	However, that really nerfs fighters, so I don't recomend it. My reason? First off, imp. sunder gives you +4 to hit. Second, monsters almost always have higher BaB and damage than the fighter will. So, your fighters can get their arms lopped off, and heads lopped off every fight, and be even more useless.
Cathon 10-29-04, 07:49 PM	Hmm, this reminds me of a recent game with the inexperienced group I was with. They were attacked by a gargantuan monstrous centipede, and a character readied an attack to strike it when it was in range. The centipede had reach due to its size and therefore never actually came within range of his sword, but he argued as to how a creature with only natural weapons can attack him without coming into range of his sword. I basically left it at the idea that there was no mechanism for attacking a creature's mandibles in the game, and I didn't want to deal with introducing called shots. It might have made him feel better, however, if he'd been able to attempt to sunder the mandibles when they got close. Perhaps if he'd done enough damage I could have given the centipede a minus on its attacks. One of those things I think I could have handled better, but I'm still not exactly sure how.
Tony Vargas 10-29-04, 08:29 PM	Not much to add. The simplest answer, to me, seems to be that, in most cases, sundering a natural weapon is just attacking the 'wielder' - so the sunder mechanic simply doesn't aply. Clearly there are some monsters where that's not the case, and they have thier own rules. A DM could also house rule the hardness & hps of a natural weapon - like a horn, say - that could be sundered without particularly harming the creature it's part of. The other point worth thinking about is a readied attack against a creature with superior reach. It's not covered in the rules, but it does make sense to allow an attack against something that someone else is trying to violently introduce to your internal organs - whether it's a spear, sword or claw - whatever it is, it's certainly going to be within your reach at some point. In the case of an armed advesary, the only options would seem to be something like sunder or disarm. In the case of one using a natural weapon, a regular attack would make just as much sense. In any case, making a sunder attempt as an end-run around a creatures AC would be a no-no, so don't fall for that. If you do want to allow the sunder mechanic as a way of putting damage on a natural-weapon-using enemy, at least use it's AC as a 'floor' for it's opposed check: If you beat the oppossed check, but not the AC, the sunder attempt succeeds, in the sense that you do get a solid swing at the creature's tentacle/claw/whatever, but fails to do any actual damage.
PlasmaBunny 10-29-04, 09:49 PM	If ya really want to sunder an opponents natural weapon, I would do this: Begin sunder as normal, attack of opportunity. When you make an opposed attack roll, add the enemy's Natural armor bonuses to their attack roll. (optionally, you may choose to add dex/dodge and deflection bonusses to this roll, its really at your discretion) Roll damage normally, if you deal more damage than your enemy's constitution score, you injure their natural weapon, causing them to suffer a -2 circumstance penalty to their attack rolls with that natural weapon until they receive 1 point of magical healing or suceed a dc 20 heal check. This circumstance penalty does not stack. This will not work on enemy's that are immune to critical hits. Regardless if you do enough damage to injure the natural weapon, you deal 1d6 damage to the creature who's natural weapon you were sundering.
Golchocobo 09-05-05, 06:28 PM	If ya really want to sunder an opponents natural weapon, I would do this: Begin sunder as normal, attack of opportunity. When you make an opposed attack roll, add the enemy's Natural armor bonuses to their attack roll. (optionally, you may choose to add dex/dodge and deflection bonusses to this roll, its really at your discretion) Roll damage normally, if you deal more damage than your enemy's constitution score, you injure their natural weapon, causing them to suffer a -2 circumstance penalty to their attack rolls with that natural weapon until they receive 1 point of magical healing or suceed a dc 20 heal check. This circumstance penalty does not stack. This will not work on enemy's that are immune to critical hits. Regardless if you do enough damage to injure the natural weapon, you deal 1d6 damage to the creature who's natural weapon you were sundering. I've wondered about this topic for a while... this is almost exactly what I came up with. Except for the last part.