Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skyrocket 09-06-06, 01:37 AM	While looking through the DMG I noticed Queel's (sp) Feather Token: Tree. Basically I can instantly create a 40ft tree anywhere I want instantly. Now for my question. If I sneak up behind someone, slap the token on them and activate it, does that mean they're instantly smashed or impaled by the tree? On that same note, if I run under a dragon and use the token does that mean the dragon will instantly have a big tree jammed into its gut?
Redginald 09-06-06, 03:06 AM	I would think that is up to the DM to decide. I had a player in my campaign who tried just that, I ruled that the target gets a DC 14 or 15 Reflex save to jump out of the way. On a fail the monster was hanging prone in the trunk of the tree.
ibayboy 09-06-06, 03:12 AM	I think it should do some damage at least. Our group has been having similar thoughts about the Daerns Instant Fortress we just aquired. more specificaly, on being swallowed whole. My character has already been down the gullet once and doesn't mind doing it again. edit: The damage for the 30 x 20ft tower is 10d10, ref save for half.
Mitchell 09-06-06, 04:11 AM	The tree, like the fortress, would do a specific amount of damage. Whether this is enough to kill something remains to be seen. How much damage? The fortress is specific; 10d10. The tree would likely do similar damage. Using such an item on the inside of a creature (such as you being swallowed) is a bit different. Reason dictates that the creature would be killed instantly unless it was large enough to accomodate such a thing in it's stomach (and really I can only think of something like a devastation beetle here), but there is another possibility. I would not consider it an unreasonable ruling if the DM said that the creature would take 10d10 damage, but the fortress ejected itself during the growth process and sprang into existence outside of the creature in question.
1CentSage 09-06-06, 05:38 AM	As a DM I would treat the expanding tree like a bullrush and assign some damage with a reflex save for half damage. The damage should be much less than for the instant fortress however. The trunk of the tree has only a 5ft. diameter and the 40ft. wide crown will appear 60ft. above the creature so to get out of the trees way is much easier as in the case of the fortress. Also I would say, that the tree appears "in the usual way for a tree", that is, you can not call forth a horizontal tree 5ft. above a creature's head.
empty 09-06-06, 05:52 AM	If the castle was planted inside something with not enough stomach, and the castle didnt do enough damage to kill the beast, i would rule that the creature instead had a strong enough stomach to crumble the castle to gravel inside it. And when the stomach is full, it would stop growing, finished or not.
ibayboy 09-06-06, 07:57 AM	Remember that Daerns Instant Fortress is made of Adamantine, is 30ft tall, 20ft wide and tries to root itself 10ft into the ground. The DC19 Ref save to take half the 10D10 damage is just to jump out of the way. If the stomach cavity isn't big enough to accomodate that then it's in a world of hurt.
1CentSage 09-06-06, 08:10 AM	Though I would like to see how you manage to get the item for the fortress inside a creature, activate it and get away fast enough to avoid it yourself...
ibayboy 09-06-06, 08:30 AM	You would just have to take the ref save for half. "I cushion myself with a loop of intestine", or "My rogue puts a fold of stomach between himself and the tower, making the ref save and taking no damage due to Evasion". It's all in how you visualise things. Our DM would reward creative thinking, no rule says you can't make ref saves when swallowed/grappled.
1CentSage 09-06-06, 12:00 PM	You would just have to take the ref save for half. "I cushion myself with a loop of intestine", or "My rogue puts a fold of stomach between himself and the tower, making the ref save and taking no damage due to Evasion". It's all in how you visualise things. Our DM would reward creative thinking, no rule says you can't make ref saves when swallowed/grappled. Ah, I see... . So you could get into this 10x10x10 ft room with no exit, activate the item make your reflex save and are fine and for roleplaying purposes say that you took cover behind your cloack. Yeap, creative and perfectly legal. In most campaigns I have played it would get you a different (and quite unpleasant) kind of "reward" though (no offense intended) ;) .
Steevo 09-06-06, 01:57 PM	Activating such items inside creatures is a headahce I'd rather not have right now, so I'll leave that issue to you other fine forumites. Regarding sticking the token to someone's back or putting it underneath a dragon, I'd think they'd just get pushed out of the way. The dragon might suddenly be stuck up a tree, for example, but otherwise unharmed. I'd probably rule him flat-footed for a round while he gets his bearings, at most.
Zaistars69 09-06-06, 02:17 PM	The way I work it, as this has happened before, is the guy inside the stomach takes 10d10 damage no save (no where to move) the creature was instantly killed spraying the rest of the party with chunks due to the massive speed in which the fortress expands. On top of that a couple of party members got hit because i don't allow talking while combat is going of more than a couple of words, and if your swallowed (and alone inside) you don't get to pipe up at all. It was creative but a little painful for those involved.
mvincent 09-06-06, 02:42 PM	The standard rule for D&D is that if no damage is given in the description (or in a clearly associated explicit rule), then it does not do damage. This is standard when enlarging, summoning, de-shrunking, etc. (i.e. a decanter of endless water placed in solid, thick adamantine sphere will not build up unlimited pressure and eventually create a near-nuclear explosion) For a summoned item, if there is not enough room for it the spell fails. An enlarged item "attains the maximum possible size" and "is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it". The latter seems like a suitable result for the tree (otherwise it could be used to destroy castles, towers and dungeons that don't have extremely high ceilings). If someone tosses it into an average room, I just use my 20' radius template.
risner 09-06-06, 03:10 PM	If I sneak up behind someone, slap the token on them and activate it, does that mean they're instantly smashed or impaled by the tree? On that same note, if I run under a dragon and use the token does that mean the dragon will instantly have a big tree jammed into its gut? A 400 gp item can not be used as an instant kill. I would have the tree grow to the ground around the person without locking the person inside the tree or harming the person. In other words, imagine 40 years of tree growth with the person as an barrier for the tree. The same for the dragon, the tree would grow to one side or the other around thr dragon doing no damage and not trapping the dragon.
Jhaelen 09-06-06, 05:35 PM	While looking through the DMG I noticed Queel's (sp) Feather Token: Tree. Basically I can instantly create a 40ft tree anywhere I want instantly. Now for my question. If I sneak up behind someone, slap the token on them and activate it, does that mean they're instantly smashed or impaled by the tree?Definitely not. I think you're putting too much weight on 'instantly'. The growing tree is no high-velocity bullet. It will probably just push aside anything that gets in the way. As 1CentSage mentioned it's similar to a bull-rush attack. But it won't do any damage unless there's not enough free space (in which case it might do something like 1d6 damage).
mvincent 09-06-06, 05:50 PM	But it won't do any damage unless there's not enough free space (in which case it might do something like 1d6 damage).As a compromise, I'd have it move everything to the outer-edges, and if blocked have it do 1d6 damage per 10' it would've moved someone (or something) had there not been an obstacle in the way (so the tree probably does about 4d6 or 5d6 damage to the ceiling above it)
Jhaelen 09-07-06, 03:55 PM	As a compromise, I'd have it move everything to the outer-edges, and if blocked have it do 1d6 damage per 10' it would've moved someone (or something) had there not been an obstacle in the way (so the tree probably does about 4d6 or 5d6 damage to the ceiling above it) Sounds reasonable to me :)
baltasar_basilius 09-07-06, 10:00 PM	i like the idea of swallowing it, but how would you activate it once its inside his belly? complete arcane has a delay spell feat where you can cast the spell up to 5 rounds before it takes place. you could possibly buy or make one with that feat. you could then activate it and use suggestion to have the person swallow it. i would use the rest of the 5 rounds to run as fast as i could, because it would probably get really messy really fast.
Steevo 09-07-06, 11:11 PM	i like the idea of swallowing it, but how would you activate it once its inside his belly? I think the conversation up to this point has assumed the person with the growing item was swallowed and activated it while still inside. complete arcane has a delay spell feat where you can cast the spell up to 5 rounds before it takes place. you could possibly buy or make one with that feat. you could then activate it and use suggestion to have the person swallow it. i would use the rest of the 5 rounds to run as fast as i could, because it would probably get really messy really fast. That wouldn't work. The Delay Spell feat states that it only works on spells with a range of "area," "personal," or "touch." The two spells used to create the two items in question are major creation (for Quaal's Token) and mordenkainan's magnificent mansion (for the tower), both of which have a range of "close." Not to discourage you from trying, of course. If you can find a way to do this that would work by the rules, I'd like to know about it so I can veto it in any games I run ahead of time :P