Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gopher 01-03-06, 12:22 AM	For example, can a character with 11 Int buy a Headband of Intellect and then take Combat Expertise (prereq 13 Int)? Just trying to mash out a character and was curious on that. It probably says somewhere, but it's too late at night to get up and go get my books.
Cold Napalm 01-03-06, 12:26 AM	yes you can, but as soon as you lose that headband, your access to the said feats and everything off it can't be used anymore.
RavenDrake 01-03-06, 04:22 AM	As Cold Napalm said, as long as you meet the pre-requisites when you take the feat, by whatever means, you maintain that feat. If you ever fail to meet the pre-requisites, you lose access to that feat until such time as you meet them again, if ever. You also lose access to any feats that your selected feat was a pre-requisite of. To explain: So, Your fighter with 11 int(we'll call him Rusty), knows he isn't quite the sharpest arrow in the quiver, and decides he needs a little edge. He knows he's been training hard, and almost has the basics of a certain technique(translation from roleplay speak, he's about to level and can choose a feat, but dosen't meet the pre-requisites for Combat Expertise). So, he sells off some gems and jewelry and buys himself a leather circlet that is said to increase the intellect and mental prowess of those who wear it. Putting the band on, Rusty imediately begins to grasp nuances of his new style(Combat Expertise) that he didn't get before. Upon finishing his training and advancing to the next plateau in his adventruing career(trans: Leveling up) he selects his new feat. When he tries to take off the headband, however, Rusty finds he can't quite remember how to use that feat. When he puts it back on, however, it all comes rushing back. Now, sometime down the road(next level, when he gains another feat) he decides he want to make use of his newfound technical proficiency to disable opponents by freeing them of thier weapons (He wants to take Improved Disarm, for which Combat Expertise is a pre-requisite) and does so. His first combat in, however, and the rogue he disarmed had a nasty trick up thier sleeve. Literally, in fact, as they threw a poisoned dagger and hit Rusty with it. This poison, meant for a wizard, unfortunatly is more than Rusty's immune system can cope with today, and his mind reels as his brain becomes inflamed and confused (He fails his Fort save and takes 3 points of Int damage). Now poor Rusty is dumber than when he started this whole advanture. He's forgotten how to use his Expertise, and worse yet, since that ability was a pre-requsite for his disarming trick, he's forgotten how to do that too. In a few days, however, Rusty's mind(such as it is) recovers, and he once more regains the presence of mind to use both of his combat tricks.
Rulebook 01-03-06, 07:00 AM	um, no, items most certianly do not meet the requisites for feats. do YOU meet the feat? or does your equipment? its the same reason you dont get buttloads of skill points each level when you wear a headband of intellect... its not about your ENHANCEMENTS its about YOU.
Egres 01-03-06, 07:05 AM	um, no, items most certianly do not meet the requisites for feats. Source?
Tyler Do'Urden 01-03-06, 07:10 AM	yes you can, but as soon as you lose that headband, your access to the said feats and everything off it can't be used anymore. I kinda wanna clarify this here. If you lose the item, you lose access to any feat that has that ability score (most common) as a prerequisite. But if your character had feats like this... FEAT ONE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 17. Benefit: Whatever. FEAT TWO [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Feat One. Benefit: Whatever +4. ...and you lost your gloves of Dexterity, losing access to Feat One, you'd still have access to Feat Two. When you lose access to a feat due to decreased ability score, you still have the feat, you just can't use it. But yeah, most people allow qualification for feats and PrCs through magic items and then immediately steal/sunder/disjoin those items just to be a [Richard]. Ability scores are about the only thing you can boost with equipment to meet prerequisites. A cloak of resistance isn't going to help you with something that has a base Fort save requirement because the resistance bonus doesn't affect your base save, just the total modifier.
Gopher 01-03-06, 07:30 PM	Okay so almost everyone says yes...which is what I guessed originally. However, that one "no" is throwing me a bit. Anyone able to back him up or cite a rule anywhere?
Thurbane 01-03-06, 07:54 PM	My gut instinct as a DM says no, but I can't back that up with any rules. I'd like to add another question: if items can qualify you for a feat, can they also qualify you for a prestige class? Say a prestige class requires a certain feat, and the character is wearing an item that grants him that feat so long as it's worn...
Cold Napalm 01-03-06, 08:11 PM	I beleive the faq clarifies that items can be used to meet pre-req.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-03-06, 08:15 PM	That's kinda why there aren't really hard fast rules for items granting feats. It'd work basically the same as the feat thing. If you lost the prerequisite, you wouldn't be able to use any class features you gained because of it. Because of that, it's usually a really bad idea to enter a PrC using a magic item. To my mind, the only thing that sucks harder than losing access to 10 levels of class features is death from massive damage.
Zhymth 01-04-06, 06:53 AM	yes but that will only qualify you for that feat as long as you have that item.
Surreal 01-04-06, 02:49 PM	Here's another fun one for the rules lawyers: Master Thrower 2 grants evasion, or improved evasion if you already have evasion. So if one were to wear a ring of evasion when gaining MT 2, does he get improved evasion? If so, what happens when he removes the ring? Does he revert down to evasion, or does he keep improved evasion since it's now a class ability (and also important, it is not a "stacking" class ability, but rather a replacement or add-on).
Yue Ryong 01-04-06, 03:52 PM	Here's another fun one for the rules lawyers: Master Thrower 2 grants evasion, or improved evasion if you already have evasion. So if one were to wear a ring of evasion when gaining MT 2, does he get improved evasion? If so, what happens when he removes the ring? Does he revert down to evasion, or does he keep improved evasion since it's now a class ability (and also important, it is not a "stacking" class ability, but rather a replacement or add-on). That's a tough one. At a guess, I'd say that means you would get (and keep) Improved Evasion. At least until the DM decided to overrule it, as he probably should.
Puca 01-04-06, 04:34 PM	Is having something and an effect temporarily and imperfectly duplicates it the same thing? I say no. Do the prereqs for feats like Combat Expertise read "Intelligence 13" or "Intelligence 13 a vast majority of the time?"
Xabre 01-04-06, 04:54 PM	Magic is a wonderful thing, people. If you have a 13 intelligence because of a headband of intellect, you have a 13 intelligence. The reasoning behind it doesn't matter. It's not a Temporary modifier, like casting Fox's Cunning; you HAVE the intelligence. Losing the magic item means losing anything the item gave you; including feats you qualified for earlier. In regards to the Evasion question, i'd say that while wearing a Ring of Evasion, the class gives you Improved Evasion. if you lose the ring, the class skill is downgraded back to Evasion. Otherwise, all you'd have to do is say 'hey, can I borrow this ring?' Level up! 'here's your ring back'. I believe a good way to go with the whole 'what happens if I lose this...' is to look at Ranger. You can use the Ranger's Combat Style feats to qualify for other feats... but if you're ever in heavy armor, you lose the Combat Style feats, and anything that needed those for a prereq.
Yue Ryong 01-04-06, 04:54 PM	Is having something and an effect temporarily and imperfectly duplicates it the same thing? I say no. Do the prereqs for feats like Combat Expertise read "Intelligence 13" or "Intelligence 13 a vast majority of the time?" Maybe, but the FAQ supports the alternate interpretation of the rules, so unless you can offer anything more concrete, it's left up to that.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-04-06, 05:56 PM	Here's another fun one for the rules lawyers: Master Thrower 2 grants evasion, or improved evasion if you already have evasion. So if one were to wear a ring of evasion when gaining MT 2, does he get improved evasion?Clever. But...Evasion: This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion.Subtle, but since the ring doesn't technically grant you the evasion ability, then you wouldn't qualify for improved evasion from the class. So ha.
Surreal 01-05-06, 01:16 AM	But...Subtle, but since the ring doesn't technically grant you the evasion ability, then you wouldn't qualify for improved evasion from the class. So ha. Ooh, nice catch.
Trevan0 01-05-06, 01:21 AM	Magic is a wonderful thing, people. If you have a 13 intelligence because of a headband of intellect, you have a 13 intelligence. The reasoning behind it doesn't matter. It's not a Temporary modifier, like casting Fox's Cunning; you HAVE the intelligence. I disagree. They both provide an enhancement bonus.
Egres 01-05-06, 04:56 AM	I disagree. They both provide an enhancement bonus. And? Where do the books state that you must have the ability stat without any magic item? Didn't you notice that there are plenty of example-pncs with feats acquired through the use of stat increasing magical items?
Chrono Nexus 01-05-06, 05:43 AM	Originally posted by Xabre Magic is a wonderful thing, people. If you have a 13 intelligence because of a headband of intellect, you have a 13 intelligence. The reasoning behind it doesn't matter. It's not a Temporary modifier, like casting Fox's Cunning; you HAVE the intelligence. Wrong. Part of the creation of an item that raises an ability score is the casting of some temporary ability raising spell(Fox's Cunning). The item and the spell have the same kind of bonus, an enhancement bonus, and come from the same effect, so they cannot stack. Anyone that believes that magic items can meet prerequisites lacks an understanding of game balance. Any competent DM would not allow a player to take a prestige class without actually earning the right too. Screw what it says, it would break the game.
Pandaemoni 01-05-06, 06:43 AM	Wrong. Part of the creation of an item that raises an ability score is the casting of some temporary ability raising spell(Fox's Cunning). The item and the spell have the same kind of bonus, an enhancement bonus, and come from the same effect, so they cannot stack. Anyone that believes that magic items can meet prerequisites lacks an understanding of game balance. Any competent DM would not allow a player to take a prestige class without actually earning the right too. Screw what it says, it would break the game. Right but his point is, if you want to take Combat Expertise you need an Int of 13. Why? Because you have to be pretty smart to learn the feat and use it properly...the use (and learning) of the feat requires some intellectual ability. If you have your headband, then you *have* the requisite intellectual ability. With the headband, you actually are just as smart as anyone else with a 13 intelligence, hence you should have the ability to understand the feat and learn it. If you want to learn "integration by parts" in calculus, maybe that takes a 13 intelligence too. The teacher is not going to refuse to show you the technique simply because you're Charlie Gordon and you Flowers-for-Algernon'ed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon) your way to a heightened intellect. "I don't care if you can understand integration by parts, Charlie, you're not really that smart, it's just an enhancement bonus, so I won't teach you." The problem with Fox's Cunning is that the duration is too short to even learn the feat. Even if the character bought multiple wands of it every few minutes, the constant interruptions to reapply the spell, plus the fact that the character wouldn't really be *focussed* on the training would all be enough for me to deny him the feat. I admit that its a murky issue, but it seems to me the penalty is "built in". Most players would not want to use a feat slot that could be eliminated (if only temporarily) by dispel magic or (worse) by sundering. Also, that headband takes up the oh-so-valuable hat slot. Where will he put his hat of disguise? On the other hand, were I completely evil, I could see allowing the player to take the skill, but then as soon as the enhancement bonus evaporates, the feat evaporates too...even if the enhancement returns. Had Charlie learned integration by parts (as I'm sure he must have in the story), then became mentally retarded again, and then later returned to his super-genius status, he might need to relearn the technique from scratch (or at least take a quick refresher on it)...who knows?
mvincent 01-05-06, 03:03 PM	Maybe, but the FAQ supports the alternate interpretation of the rules,Where? Can you (or anyone) provide a quote or page number? (I'd like it for my own reference, and I've found nothing so far in the 3.0 or 3.5 FAQ)