Can my mount Bullrush as I attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can my mount Bullrush as I attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
10-31-07, 08:50 PM Ok, so let's say I'm riding a mount. I get it to Charge an opponent. I make an attack at the end of the charge. I want my mount to do a Bull Rush at the end of the charge. Is this allowed under the rules?
RavenDrake
11-01-07, 02:31 AM It would have to be the other way around: your mount would take it's charge, and bullrush the opponent and after the bullrush was resolved you would take your actions.

You and your mount do not interchange actions, one of you goes first and takes all available actions, then the other goes taking available actions. Even though both of you act on the same count in the iniative.
Cifer
11-01-07, 12:46 PM It would have to be the other way around: your mount would take it's charge, and bullrush the opponent and after the bullrush was resolved you would take your actions.

You and your mount do not interchange actions, one of you goes first and takes all available actions, then the other goes taking available actions. Even though both of you act on the same count in the iniative.
If that was the case, Ride-by-Attack wouldn't really make sense.
Slimgauge
11-01-07, 03:29 PM That depends on your opinion of Skip William's "Rules of the Game" articles. The article Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (part three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a) says Bull Rush: Initiating a bull rush while mounted works just like making a melee attack. You and your mount function as a single creature when resolving the bull rush.
Use your mount's size and Strength modifier for the opposed Strength check you make to resolve the bull rush.

However, if your mount is INT > 2 (such as a Paladin's special mount) it may function as an independent creature and as such would act on its own initiative (see part five of the "All About Mounts" article). In this case your interpretation might be right.
RavenDrake
11-01-07, 04:27 PM If that was the case, Ride-by-Attack wouldn't really make sense.

Rideby Attack is already an exception to the rules anyway, and it's differences from the core rules are spelled out in it's description.

My interpretation of mounted combat has always been that(for Warhorses and other combat trained creatures especially) that they could attack themselves when used as mounts, and that they act on your iniative count either before or after you do. You still get your standard action and move action in a round, but if your mount moves more than 5ft you can't take a full melee attack action.

A charge is a special single full round action, so your mount must finish it's action before you're able to perform any actions on the enemy. Rideby Attack(as noted by Cifer) changes this so that you may take your action in the middle of your mounts action, but normaly it would seem to me that you would not be able to do that.
jaelis
11-01-07, 04:46 PM You and your mount do not interchange actions, one of you goes first and takes all available actions, then the other goes taking available actions. Even though both of you act on the same count in the iniative.

That's not totally true. You can cast a spell or make a ranged attack in the middle of your mount's move. The rules don't specifically say whether you can do that with a melee attack or not. I'm not sure if you can infer not from the existance of Ride-by-Attack, because that is specifically for charging and also eliminates the AoO for riding by.
FrostHammer
11-01-07, 08:18 PM In any case, I can still get bothmy charge attack AND a bullrush off right?
RavenDrake
11-02-07, 01:38 AM That's not totally true. You can cast a spell or make a ranged attack in the middle of your mount's move. The rules don't specifically say whether you can do that with a melee attack or not. I'm not sure if you can infer not from the existance of Ride-by-Attack, because that is specifically for charging and also eliminates the AoO for riding by.

You're right... It's been a while since I'd had mounted archers OR mounted spellcasters, so I hadn't reviewed the rules completely.

At any rate, I still feel your mount will still have to finish his charging bullrush action before you take your melee attack. While the rules may give certain examples of the two of you alternating actions, I can't see having you interrupt the mounts action with your attack then letting it resume without it explicitly stateing you can.
Howie23
11-02-07, 02:23 PM Ok, so let's say I'm riding a mount. I get it to Charge an opponent. I make an attack at the end of the charge. I want my mount to do a Bull Rush at the end of the charge. Is this allowed under the rules?

This is a pretty problematic act to conduct in a single round under the RAW. Mounted Combat gets messy and has a lot of variation depending on the type of mount, DM view of Ride/Handle Animal, feats present, etc.

Without Ride By Attack, the mount's movement ends at the point of your attack, so at a minimum, you need RBA.

With Ride By Attack on an animal, there is a Handle Animal issue. Some will ignore or hand waive this one, and it is moot for an intelligent mount; otherwise, how has the animal been instructed to bullrush? I would suggest that this requires a trick specific to bull rush, similar to the other special attack tricks (if there isn't a specific one for bull rush); else it is a Push. The rider is going to have trouble scrounging up the actions after the charge in order to give the Handle Animal command somewhere in that sequence. Ranger or Druid riding a correctly trained animal companion is helpful here.

If the attack is with Ride By Attack, and the rider can get the animal to do it (either by intelligent mount, animal companion, or DM taking an alternative view of the Handle Animal skill), it then sounds like you have the mount and rider entering the target's square. Is it a bull rush for just the mount or for the mount and rider; can the rider enter the opponent's square and just go along for the ride? If the ruling is that the rider, too, engages in a bull rush, then he doesn't have the actions.

With the mount attacking in the same round, there is a Ride Check DC 10 in there somewhere for the rider to attack with the war-trained mount, too.

So, now if we have a bull rush for just the mount after all of that, I'd think you'd be good to go. To get to this point, it takes a feat, the correct mount to conserve the rider's actions, possible skill checks (Ride for certain, Handle Animal depending on mount and DM), and a cooperative DM (regarding the rider bull rushing, at a minimum).

While Ride By Attack will negate AoO, the Bull Rush itself will trigger AoO on the mount and rider, although the target can take only one w/o Combat Reflexes, of course.

David
Slimgauge
11-02-07, 02:36 PM ... on an animal, there is a Handle Animal issue. Some will ignore or hand waive this one, and it is moot for an intelligent mount; otherwise, how has the animal been instructed to bullrush? I would suggest that this requires a trick specific to bull rush, similar to the other special attack tricks (if there isn't a specific one for bull rush); ...
David

There is indeed such a trick, see the online article Random Encounters: Wild Life: Tricks and Training for D&D Animals (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a).
ToastedAmphibian
11-02-07, 05:55 PM Actually, if your treating the mount and rider as seperate, the rider gets an AoO on the bullrush target, and teh bull rush target gets an extra AoO on the rider. Both are moving and triggering AoO from eachother. Also, on a charge, you have to make the attack from the first square you reach taht you can attack him from. Probably the easit solution would be to use a reach weapon. Take your action before your mount, and ready a charge action to hit him when your mount brings you in range of him. Then your mount makes his charge to attempt the bull rush, right before he come in range for the touch attack (Assuming the mount dosnt have reach) you resolve your charge attack from the readied action. Then the mount can bull rush. The mount triggers an AoO for the bull rush attempt (If he dosnt have improved bull rush). Then the mount moves into the opponnents square. Opponnent gets an AoO on you for your moving into his square also. The if the bull rush suceeds, you opponent, and you, both move. Your both threatenign eachother, and your not actually in gthe bull rush, so both of you agian trigger an AoO off eachoter.

Entering someones square is a seperate AoO from moving right? As in, a creature that only threatens its own square, a tiny creature for instance, still gets that AoO on you, despite the fact that you didnt leave a square it threatened.
ToastedAmphibian
11-02-07, 05:58 PM In summary;
you get the charge attack,
then opponnent get AoO on mount.
Then opponnent gets AoO on you.
Then opossed strenght check for bull rush.
Then you and Opponnent get AoO on eachother.(Assuming the mount moves with him. If the mount dosnt move with him, then i guess only you get the AoO)

Combat Reflexes would be very handy for your opponnent here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 10-31-07, 08:50 PM	Ok, so let's say I'm riding a mount. I get it to Charge an opponent. I make an attack at the end of the charge. I want my mount to do a Bull Rush at the end of the charge. Is this allowed under the rules?
RavenDrake 11-01-07, 02:31 AM	It would have to be the other way around: your mount would take it's charge, and bullrush the opponent and after the bullrush was resolved you would take your actions. You and your mount do not interchange actions, one of you goes first and takes all available actions, then the other goes taking available actions. Even though both of you act on the same count in the iniative.
Cifer 11-01-07, 12:46 PM	It would have to be the other way around: your mount would take it's charge, and bullrush the opponent and after the bullrush was resolved you would take your actions. You and your mount do not interchange actions, one of you goes first and takes all available actions, then the other goes taking available actions. Even though both of you act on the same count in the iniative. If that was the case, Ride-by-Attack wouldn't really make sense.
Slimgauge 11-01-07, 03:29 PM	That depends on your opinion of Skip William's "Rules of the Game" articles. The article Rules of the Game: All About Mounts (part three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a) says Bull Rush: Initiating a bull rush while mounted works just like making a melee attack. You and your mount function as a single creature when resolving the bull rush. Use your mount's size and Strength modifier for the opposed Strength check you make to resolve the bull rush. However, if your mount is INT > 2 (such as a Paladin's special mount) it may function as an independent creature and as such would act on its own initiative (see part five of the "All About Mounts" article). In this case your interpretation might be right.
RavenDrake 11-01-07, 04:27 PM	If that was the case, Ride-by-Attack wouldn't really make sense. Rideby Attack is already an exception to the rules anyway, and it's differences from the core rules are spelled out in it's description. My interpretation of mounted combat has always been that(for Warhorses and other combat trained creatures especially) that they could attack themselves when used as mounts, and that they act on your iniative count either before or after you do. You still get your standard action and move action in a round, but if your mount moves more than 5ft you can't take a full melee attack action. A charge is a special single full round action, so your mount must finish it's action before you're able to perform any actions on the enemy. Rideby Attack(as noted by Cifer) changes this so that you may take your action in the middle of your mounts action, but normaly it would seem to me that you would not be able to do that.
jaelis 11-01-07, 04:46 PM	You and your mount do not interchange actions, one of you goes first and takes all available actions, then the other goes taking available actions. Even though both of you act on the same count in the iniative. That's not totally true. You can cast a spell or make a ranged attack in the middle of your mount's move. The rules don't specifically say whether you can do that with a melee attack or not. I'm not sure if you can infer not from the existance of Ride-by-Attack, because that is specifically for charging and also eliminates the AoO for riding by.
FrostHammer 11-01-07, 08:18 PM	In any case, I can still get bothmy charge attack AND a bullrush off right?
RavenDrake 11-02-07, 01:38 AM	That's not totally true. You can cast a spell or make a ranged attack in the middle of your mount's move. The rules don't specifically say whether you can do that with a melee attack or not. I'm not sure if you can infer not from the existance of Ride-by-Attack, because that is specifically for charging and also eliminates the AoO for riding by. You're right... It's been a while since I'd had mounted archers OR mounted spellcasters, so I hadn't reviewed the rules completely. At any rate, I still feel your mount will still have to finish his charging bullrush action before you take your melee attack. While the rules may give certain examples of the two of you alternating actions, I can't see having you interrupt the mounts action with your attack then letting it resume without it explicitly stateing you can.
Howie23 11-02-07, 02:23 PM	Ok, so let's say I'm riding a mount. I get it to Charge an opponent. I make an attack at the end of the charge. I want my mount to do a Bull Rush at the end of the charge. Is this allowed under the rules? This is a pretty problematic act to conduct in a single round under the RAW. Mounted Combat gets messy and has a lot of variation depending on the type of mount, DM view of Ride/Handle Animal, feats present, etc. Without Ride By Attack, the mount's movement ends at the point of your attack, so at a minimum, you need RBA. With Ride By Attack on an animal, there is a Handle Animal issue. Some will ignore or hand waive this one, and it is moot for an intelligent mount; otherwise, how has the animal been instructed to bullrush? I would suggest that this requires a trick specific to bull rush, similar to the other special attack tricks (if there isn't a specific one for bull rush); else it is a Push. The rider is going to have trouble scrounging up the actions after the charge in order to give the Handle Animal command somewhere in that sequence. Ranger or Druid riding a correctly trained animal companion is helpful here. If the attack is with Ride By Attack, and the rider can get the animal to do it (either by intelligent mount, animal companion, or DM taking an alternative view of the Handle Animal skill), it then sounds like you have the mount and rider entering the target's square. Is it a bull rush for just the mount or for the mount and rider; can the rider enter the opponent's square and just go along for the ride? If the ruling is that the rider, too, engages in a bull rush, then he doesn't have the actions. With the mount attacking in the same round, there is a Ride Check DC 10 in there somewhere for the rider to attack with the war-trained mount, too. So, now if we have a bull rush for just the mount after all of that, I'd think you'd be good to go. To get to this point, it takes a feat, the correct mount to conserve the rider's actions, possible skill checks (Ride for certain, Handle Animal depending on mount and DM), and a cooperative DM (regarding the rider bull rushing, at a minimum). While Ride By Attack will negate AoO, the Bull Rush itself will trigger AoO on the mount and rider, although the target can take only one w/o Combat Reflexes, of course. David
Slimgauge 11-02-07, 02:36 PM	... on an animal, there is a Handle Animal issue. Some will ignore or hand waive this one, and it is moot for an intelligent mount; otherwise, how has the animal been instructed to bullrush? I would suggest that this requires a trick specific to bull rush, similar to the other special attack tricks (if there isn't a specific one for bull rush); ... David There is indeed such a trick, see the online article Random Encounters: Wild Life: Tricks and Training for D&D Animals (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a).
ToastedAmphibian 11-02-07, 05:55 PM	Actually, if your treating the mount and rider as seperate, the rider gets an AoO on the bullrush target, and teh bull rush target gets an extra AoO on the rider. Both are moving and triggering AoO from eachother. Also, on a charge, you have to make the attack from the first square you reach taht you can attack him from. Probably the easit solution would be to use a reach weapon. Take your action before your mount, and ready a charge action to hit him when your mount brings you in range of him. Then your mount makes his charge to attempt the bull rush, right before he come in range for the touch attack (Assuming the mount dosnt have reach) you resolve your charge attack from the readied action. Then the mount can bull rush. The mount triggers an AoO for the bull rush attempt (If he dosnt have improved bull rush). Then the mount moves into the opponnents square. Opponnent gets an AoO on you for your moving into his square also. The if the bull rush suceeds, you opponent, and you, both move. Your both threatenign eachother, and your not actually in gthe bull rush, so both of you agian trigger an AoO off eachoter. Entering someones square is a seperate AoO from moving right? As in, a creature that only threatens its own square, a tiny creature for instance, still gets that AoO on you, despite the fact that you didnt leave a square it threatened.
ToastedAmphibian 11-02-07, 05:58 PM	In summary; you get the charge attack, then opponnent get AoO on mount. Then opponnent gets AoO on you. Then opossed strenght check for bull rush. Then you and Opponnent get AoO on eachother.(Assuming the mount moves with him. If the mount dosnt move with him, then i guess only you get the AoO) Combat Reflexes would be very handy for your opponnent here.