Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beware of Kobold 01-31-05, 07:42 PM	can they?
BW0222 01-31-05, 08:10 PM	Yes. A creature with natural weapons may make a normal unarmed attack. He would provoke an AoO normally -- unless he has the improved unarmed strike. It does subdual, it does 1d3 (1d4 large, 1d2 small, etc.) damage, takes a -4 penalty to do real damage, it only gets attacks based on it's BAB, etc.. (A leopard is no better in a fist fight than man). He can make special attacks (trip, grapple, etc.) using the same rules as any other creature. Normally, a creature with natural weapons isn't going to "punch" someone. It is easier and more effective just to bite, claw, gore, etc. However, in order to do some special attacks -- grapple, trip, disarm, etc. -- it could be forced into it. Some critters do have specialized forms of these special attacks -- improved grapple and improved trip. A wolf can trip someone as a free action off his bite, a tiger can grapple as a free action if she hits with her claws, etc.
K_Man 01-31-05, 08:29 PM	Reread the "Trip" section. I am pretty sure it says natural weapons (claws and whatnot) are treated as "armed" unarmed attacks, like Imp Unarmed Strike, therefore not provoking the AoO. That is what my copy says, but it could very well be wrong...it was an early print! Remember, Tripping in and of itself doesn't provoke an AoO...doing it barehanded without Imp Unarmed Strike does. That is what makes those weapons, like those crazy polarms and flails, worth using. No AoO. So, yes, if you have claws or bite or whatever, you can trip without the AoO.
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 01:38 AM	Yes. A creature with natural weapons may make a normal unarmed attack. He would provoke an AoO normally -- unless he has the improved unarmed strike. It does subdual, it does 1d3 (1d4 large, 1d2 small, etc.) damage, takes a -4 penalty to do real damage, it only gets attacks based on it's BAB, etc.. (A leopard is no better in a fist fight than man). He can make special attacks (trip, grapple, etc.) using the same rules as any other creature. Normally, a creature with natural weapons isn't going to "punch" someone. It is easier and more effective just to bite, claw, gore, etc. However, in order to do some special attacks -- grapple, trip, disarm, etc. -- it could be forced into it. Some critters do have specialized forms of these special attacks -- improved grapple and improved trip. A wolf can trip someone as a free action off his bite, a tiger can grapple as a free action if she hits with her claws, etc. so in other words, no they can't use natural weapons to make trip attempts but can still trip using a regular unarmed touch attack Reread the "Trip" section. I am pretty sure it says natural weapons (claws and whatnot) are treated as "armed" unarmed attacks, like Imp Unarmed Strike, therefore not provoking the AoO. That is what my copy says, but it could very well be wrong...it was an early print! Remember, Tripping in and of itself doesn't provoke an AoO...doing it barehanded without Imp Unarmed Strike does. That is what makes those weapons, like those crazy polarms and flails, worth using. No AoO. So, yes, if you have claws or bite or whatever, you can trip without the AoO. I re-read the trip section in my PHB (I have the errattaed black leather one! :D) but it doesn't mention natural weapons specifically.
Callahan 02-01-05, 01:59 AM	Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. then: Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack. So yes a creature with a bite, claw or other natural attack can trip with it and not suffer the AoO.
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 02:12 AM	However a natural weapon isn't one of the weapons listed in the section below the one you quoted, so that still doesn't answer my question.
Mirtek 02-01-05, 02:33 AM	So yes a creature with a bite, claw or other natural attack can trip with it and not suffer the AoO. That is ONLY is the creature can use a weapon to make a trip attack. Not all weapons are allowed to be used for trip attacks, and only if the creature's natural weapon is considered a trip weapon the creature does not provoke an AoO. If the creature's natural weapon is not among the special trip weapons, the creature can not us it's "armed natural attack" to make a trip attempt and has to use a unarmed attack like anyone else (e.g. a human using a longsword is armed, but unable to make an armed trip attack either, as a longsword is no trip weapon) According to annother FAQ answer some natural weapons are considered trip weapons, but others are not. So it just depends on the natural weapon
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 02:35 AM	what FAQ is this that you refer to?
Callahan 02-01-05, 02:48 AM	When a monster uses a special attack option, such as trip or sunder, must it make the attack with its primary natural weapon? Are there any limits on which natural weapons can be used in a trip or sunder attack? When a monster has multiple natural weapons, can it use each of those weapons to make trip or sunder attacks? A monster with natural weaponry doesn’t need to use its primary natural weapon to make sunder or trip attacks. If it uses a secondary weapon, however, the penalty for a secondary weapon applies to the attack (–5 or –2 with the Multiattack feat). In the case of sunder, the secondary weapon penalty applies to the opposed attack roll the creature makes to accomplish the sunder attack. In the case of a trip attack, the secondary weapon penalty applies to the melee touch attack roll the creature makes to start the trip attack. A creature can make a trip attack with just about any natural weapon, although the DM must exercise some common sense in the matter. Claw and bite attacks are excellent for trip attempts, as are tentacle attacks. Since tripping in the D&D game involves grabbing a foe and pulling him down, stings, gores, hooves, and most slam attacks should not work for tripping (although tail slaps work). A natural weapon must deal bludgeoning or slashing damage to be useful for a sunder attack. Gore and sting attacks deal only piercing damage and thus aren’t useful for such attacks (see page 312 in the Monster Manual for a list of natural weapons and their damage types), but again, some common sense is in order here. Creatures with pointy fangs, such as monstrous spiders or big snakes, probably deal only piecing damage with their bite attacks and aren’t really smart enough to make sunder attacks anyway. In either case, a monster making a sunder or trip attack follows all the rules a player character uses for the attack in question, including provoking an attack of opportunity. A monster with several natural weapons can make a sunder or trip attack with each one, provided that it uses the full attack action, and its natural weaponry is useful for the attack in question. Note that some monsters have special trip or sunder attacks. In such cases, use the rules given in the monster’s description, not the general rules discussed here. For example a wolf can make a free trip attempt when it hits with its bite attack and does not provoke an attack of opportunity when doing so. Likewise a bebilith’s rend armor attack is similar to a sunder attack, but it works only on a foe’s armor, and only when the bebilith hits with both claws. Rend armor doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. -3.5 MAin FAQ
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 02:51 AM	now that's the kind of reference i was looking for. thanks!
Callahan 02-01-05, 02:59 AM	now that's the kind of reference i was looking for. thanks! No problem. Keep asking those questions with hard to find answers.