Can Sunder be used to break/sever natural weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Sunder be used to break/sever natural weapons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StormD
08-01-05, 06:28 PM There's no rules anywhere governing how you chop off something's arm or leg.

This makes a certain amount of sense, given the nature of Hit Points, but it seems that if you can use Sunder to take out someone's sword, you should be able to take out something's claws in a similar fashon.

Furthermore, the rules for regeneration specifically state that a creature with regeneration can re-attach severed limbs, and the severed member will die and decompose if not reattached. Also the description of fast-healing states that unlike regeneration, creatures with fast-healing cannot re-attach severed limbs.

So it appears the rules are meant to accomodate something getting its arm chopped off, but there's no mechanic anywhere governing exactly how you do it. Sunder seems like the logical mechanic to use, but how do you determine the hp of an arm?
tarkin
08-01-05, 06:49 PM 1) No, you can't do it using the Sunder rules.

2) There is a legal way to cut off someone's arm: kill them, they become an unattended object, then take a saw to their arm.

3) Any part of an object has the same hitpoints as the entire object. I.E. If I have 50 hitpoints, then it takes 50 hitpoints to remove my arm.

4) If you just remove the restriction about Sunder not working on bodyparts, Rule #3 still applies. I.E. To sunder my arm you first need to bring me to 0 hitpoints. See Rule 2 above.

5) The regeneration rules were mainly a holdover from earlier versions of the game, but there still exists ways to cut off a creature's arm. They tend to be very dificult.

6) In a non-epic game, removing an arm should put the person out of battle. So rules #3 and and #4 are GOOD rules. If you are playing an Epic game, there are many more ways to remove an arm.

7) There are fair ways to reinstitue this kind of thing. One of them is to: Start with the Vorpal enchantment. Remove the word Head. Replace with Limb. Boom, fair item. Another is to start with Assasin's Death attack, change Kill to remove limb.

8) People can if they choose cut off their own limbs. (See real life guy with arm trapped under boulder). This would require massive amounts of skill/healing to NOT kill yourself. Main uses are to get out of traps, etc. Would clearly be several Full Round actions on a willing person.
Inigo Carmine
08-01-05, 08:19 PM I would also allow limb severing done as a Coup De Grace.
Platonix
08-01-05, 08:31 PM Regarding the HP of an arm, wouldn't it make more sense to borrow the rules for severing a hydra's head?
To sever a head, a player must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. [...] Each of a hydra's heads has hit points equal to the creature's full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. For example, if a five-headed hydra has 52 hit points, 10 or more points of damage severs a head (52 / 5 = 10.4, rounded down to 10).
So, you could say that dealing one fifth of a character's max hit point total to a single limb with a slashing weapon in a sunder attack would sever it (one fifth because the human body could be said to have five limbs: two arms, two legs and a neck. Counting only heads simply does not make sense unless you're dealing with a hydra or similarly several-headed opponent.)
Noti Animboa
08-01-05, 11:42 PM yes but that means a psion with 50 health at level 7 could lose his arm or leg upontaking 10 damage not a hard thing at all, by the way can you sunder with a n energy missile?
tarkin
08-02-05, 11:18 AM No that is not the rule in Hydra. Hyrdras have legs as well. If the Hydra has 5 heads and 4 limbs, you divide their total hitpoints by FIVE, not 9(5+4). The Hydra rule is divide total number of hitpoints by the number of heads, not the number of limbs. So if you have 50 hitpoints, and 1 head it takes 50 hitpoints to remove the Head.

Look, when I want to break a crossbow, I don't want to shatter the entire thing, just the handle. so can't I divide by 3 as I only want to break off the handle? No. That is a just a bad house rule designed to make something that is supposed to be hard, very easy.

Basically, the idea that you want to do (chopping off the limbs/head of a resisting enemey as a single action in the middle of combat) is an EPIC ability. As such there is NO way you can make it work in non-epic combat.

P.S. I would be happy to let someone use a Coup De Grace to remove a limb. That is a perfectly fine and reasonable House Rule.
ClementWillowbreaker
08-02-05, 10:27 PM Exactly what Tarkin said. If you want limb-removal, make the person helpless first, and Coup de Grace. Fort Save to keep it attached...ouch.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StormD 08-01-05, 06:28 PM	There's no rules anywhere governing how you chop off something's arm or leg. This makes a certain amount of sense, given the nature of Hit Points, but it seems that if you can use Sunder to take out someone's sword, you should be able to take out something's claws in a similar fashon. Furthermore, the rules for regeneration specifically state that a creature with regeneration can re-attach severed limbs, and the severed member will die and decompose if not reattached. Also the description of fast-healing states that unlike regeneration, creatures with fast-healing cannot re-attach severed limbs. So it appears the rules are meant to accomodate something getting its arm chopped off, but there's no mechanic anywhere governing exactly how you do it. Sunder seems like the logical mechanic to use, but how do you determine the hp of an arm?
tarkin 08-01-05, 06:49 PM	1) No, you can't do it using the Sunder rules. 2) There is a legal way to cut off someone's arm: kill them, they become an unattended object, then take a saw to their arm. 3) Any part of an object has the same hitpoints as the entire object. I.E. If I have 50 hitpoints, then it takes 50 hitpoints to remove my arm. 4) If you just remove the restriction about Sunder not working on bodyparts, Rule #3 still applies. I.E. To sunder my arm you first need to bring me to 0 hitpoints. See Rule 2 above. 5) The regeneration rules were mainly a holdover from earlier versions of the game, but there still exists ways to cut off a creature's arm. They tend to be very dificult. 6) In a non-epic game, removing an arm should put the person out of battle. So rules #3 and and #4 are GOOD rules. If you are playing an Epic game, there are many more ways to remove an arm. 7) There are fair ways to reinstitue this kind of thing. One of them is to: Start with the Vorpal enchantment. Remove the word Head. Replace with Limb. Boom, fair item. Another is to start with Assasin's Death attack, change Kill to remove limb. 8) People can if they choose cut off their own limbs. (See real life guy with arm trapped under boulder). This would require massive amounts of skill/healing to NOT kill yourself. Main uses are to get out of traps, etc. Would clearly be several Full Round actions on a willing person.
Inigo Carmine 08-01-05, 08:19 PM	I would also allow limb severing done as a Coup De Grace.
Platonix 08-01-05, 08:31 PM	Regarding the HP of an arm, wouldn't it make more sense to borrow the rules for severing a hydra's head? To sever a head, a player must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. [...] Each of a hydra's heads has hit points equal to the creature's full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. For example, if a five-headed hydra has 52 hit points, 10 or more points of damage severs a head (52 / 5 = 10.4, rounded down to 10). So, you could say that dealing one fifth of a character's max hit point total to a single limb with a slashing weapon in a sunder attack would sever it (one fifth because the human body could be said to have five limbs: two arms, two legs and a neck. Counting only heads simply does not make sense unless you're dealing with a hydra or similarly several-headed opponent.)
Noti Animboa 08-01-05, 11:42 PM	yes but that means a psion with 50 health at level 7 could lose his arm or leg upontaking 10 damage not a hard thing at all, by the way can you sunder with a n energy missile?
tarkin 08-02-05, 11:18 AM	No that is not the rule in Hydra. Hyrdras have legs as well. If the Hydra has 5 heads and 4 limbs, you divide their total hitpoints by FIVE, not 9(5+4). The Hydra rule is divide total number of hitpoints by the number of heads, not the number of limbs. So if you have 50 hitpoints, and 1 head it takes 50 hitpoints to remove the Head. Look, when I want to break a crossbow, I don't want to shatter the entire thing, just the handle. so can't I divide by 3 as I only want to break off the handle? No. That is a just a bad house rule designed to make something that is supposed to be hard, very easy. Basically, the idea that you want to do (chopping off the limbs/head of a resisting enemey as a single action in the middle of combat) is an EPIC ability. As such there is NO way you can make it work in non-epic combat. P.S. I would be happy to let someone use a Coup De Grace to remove a limb. That is a perfectly fine and reasonable House Rule.
ClementWillowbreaker 08-02-05, 10:27 PM	Exactly what Tarkin said. If you want limb-removal, make the person helpless first, and Coup de Grace. Fort Save to keep it attached...ouch.