Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sburnhamh 09-14-04, 12:36 AM	I really need some help for an upcoming ghostwalk campaign. There are lots of bits and pieces in various books about fighting while incorpreal. It's mentioned in GW, in the DMG, I think I saw something about it in Planes,...certain items mention it specificly, most don't... Is there anyone out there that could help me put the pieces together? I'm playing a dual class psion / eidolon who is remaining incorpreal. Will his powers with a range of 'touch' work? What types of corpreal weapons can hit him, what armor types will protect against him? I think I read that force effects will work against a ghost, but there is also mention of physical weapons having a chance of dealing damage... is that just magical items, or ordinary weapons.... what about masterwork? I have so many questions,..!!! Please help!!
Egres 09-14-04, 01:40 AM	From the SRD: Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. Does it help?
sburnhamh 09-14-04, 11:55 AM	As comprehensive as that seems, you'd be surprised how many holes it leaves open. It doesn't resolve the issue of psi powers with a range of 'touch' for incorpreal v. corpreal. It's not a physical attack, but it implies that it requires contact, does it work? Once an incorpreal psi character uses up it's pp and has no other means of attacking a corpreal enemy, can it 'aid another' to give it the to hit or AC bonus? It can't physicly interfere with the combat, but it can say 'booga booga' and wave it's arms around to distract the opponent. If I remember, aid another doesn't specify physical interference, so taunting and distraction could qualify, or is there a better way to resolve the issue. Psi crystals are a manifestation of the psion, of sorts, and the crystal is described as having physical qualities. If we assume that those qualities adapt to allow the psion to planar travel, and that the crystal teleports with the psion and such, would it become incorpreal to match the state of the psion as a Ghostwalk character?
Egres 09-14-04, 12:24 PM	It doesn't resolve the issue of psi powers with a range of 'touch' for incorpreal v. corpreal. It's not a physical attack, but it implies that it requires contact, does it work? No. Once an incorpreal psi character uses up it's pp and has no other means of attacking a corpreal enemy, can it 'aid another' to give it the to hit or AC bonus? It can't physicly interfere with the combat, but it can say 'booga booga' and wave it's arms around to distract the opponent. If I remember, aid another doesn't specify physical interference, so taunting and distraction could qualify, or is there a better way to resolve the issue. I would say No,since you must hit AC 10 in order to aid your ally. Psi crystals are a manifestation of the psion, of sorts, and the crystal is described as having physical qualities. If we assume that those qualities adapt to allow the psion to planar travel, and that the crystal teleports with the psion and such, would it become incorpreal to match the state of the psion as a Ghostwalk character? I don't know much about the Ghostwalk campaign setting, but the Psycrystal is a construct like many others, and if you don't have any means that can make it incorporeal, i can't see any rules that can aid you in this way.
Iku Rex 09-14-04, 12:41 PM	(Side note, not directly relevant to the OP. ) From the SRD: Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. Does it help?Also from the SRD - compare the parts in bold with the text Egres quoted above. INCORPOREALITY Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature. Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them. Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids. Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon. Incorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks. They move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground. They can pass through solid objects at will, although they cannot see when their eyes are within solid matter. Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below). Incorporeal creatures are inaudible unless they decide to make noise. The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. Incorporeal creatures do not leave footprints, have no scent, and make no noise unless they manifest, and even then they only make noise intentionally.
sburnhamh 09-14-04, 01:38 PM	Thanks for the well thought out answers Egres...uhh, or lack thereof... First, for psionic attacks with a range touch, can you quote a rule? I havn't been able to find anything that states that for a spell or power to have effect with a range of touch, that you need to be able to hit an opponent in any way that deals damange. I've never heard anyone role for a spell w/ a range of touch, and then try to add the damage for the unarmed strike they just made. If anything the description implies that you only need to occupy physically adjacent space so that the 'energy' has a conduit. Why would psi power (since it can be manifested by corpreal and incorpreal creatures with no diiference) need a commonality of substance type when it doesn't for anything else? Your take on 'aid another' falls into the same category. It can be read as implying that the 'attacker' is staying where the opponent can't out manuever them, thus obstructing thier attack or foiling the creatures ability to dodge. It doesn't actually state that you need to be able to make an attack that deals damage, just that you make a roll (dex based so it implies manuverability, not contact) to see if you can interfere. It's fine if it doesn't work, but if it doesn't, what would you use to resolve the action? Taunt, distract, would my allies gain a cover or conceal bonus because I can get in front of an opponent and limit it's ability to see? For psi crystals my question comes up because there is no specific rule, but it could be reasoned either way. If a player plane shifts, the crystal follows. If you die, and continue playing in the afterlife, it follows, etc.... plus, it's an ebodiment of an aspect of the psion. What it does say is that at a psion can transfer powers with the range 'touch' to a crystal and then use the crystal as a ranged weapon to deliver the effect. This implies that the crystal is of such a type that the psion must be able to touch it. So either a crystal can be incorpreal, and a psion can transfer the touch effect with it as a ranged weapon (maybe only against other incorpreal creatures if your opionion about transfer of touch effects between corpreal and incorpreal holds true), or the crystal is corpreal and the incorpreal can transfer to it which supports my view of the touch range issue, but your view of the psi crystal corpreality issue.
Egres 09-14-04, 03:27 PM	First, for psionic attacks with a range touch, can you quote a rule? I havn't been able to find anything that states that for a spell or power to have effect with a range of touch, that you need to be able to hit an opponent in any way that deals damange. I've never heard anyone role for a spell w/ a range of touch, and then try to add the damage for the unarmed strike they just made. If anything the description implies that you only need to occupy physically adjacent space so that the 'energy' has a conduit. Why would psi power (since it can be manifested by corpreal and incorpreal creatures with no diiference) need a commonality of substance type when it doesn't for anything else? From the SRD. Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it Here the problem is: they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature. As you can easily see, these two statements seem to work against each other. Note that reading them literally,it seems that you could manifest a touch power against creatures but not against objects. Your take on 'aid another' falls into the same category. It can be read as implying that the 'attacker' is staying where the opponent can't out manuever them, thus obstructing thier attack or foiling the creatures ability to dodge. It doesn't actually state that you need to be able to make an attack that deals damage, just that you make a roll (dex based so it implies manuverability, not contact) to see if you can interfere. It's fine if it doesn't work, but if it doesn't, what would you use to resolve the action? Taunt, distract, would my allies gain a cover or conceal bonus because I can get in front of an opponent and limit it's ability to see? A corporeal creature would not grant concealment standing in front of an opponent. Why could you do it being incorporeal? And i can't see how would you grant cover in the case the opponent can't hit you due to the lack of magical weapons. For psi crystals my question comes up because there is no specific rule, but it could be reasoned either way. If a player plane shifts, the crystal follows. If you die, and continue playing in the afterlife, it follows, etc.... plus, it's an ebodiment of an aspect of the psion. What it does say is that at a psion can transfer powers with the range 'touch' to a crystal and then use the crystal as a ranged weapon to deliver the effect. This implies that the crystal is of such a type that the psion must be able to touch it. So either a crystal can be incorpreal, and a psion can transfer the touch effect with it as a ranged weapon (maybe only against other incorpreal creatures if your opionion about transfer of touch effects between corpreal and incorpreal holds true), or the crystal is corpreal and the incorpreal can transfer to it which supports my view of the touch range issue, but your view of the psi crystal corpreality issue. I disagree. You are mixing up the effects of spell like Plane Shifts and the rewsult of being dead and become incorporeal. And nowhere is stated that you can touch your PsyCrystal no matter the "corporeality" you have at the moment. Hope this helps, even if my replies aren't "well thought ones". ;)
sburnhamh 09-14-04, 04:16 PM	Hi Egres, These answers are more thought out, and I appreciate them. I didn't intend to insult you about the earlier replies, but some cut and paste, then typing 'No' doesn't lead to the impression that much consideration was given... I still don't think the touch issue for the transference of a power or spell is settled. We still don't have a definite answer about what it is about 'touching' that transfers the power. You point out that an incorpreal entity cannot manipulate or exert force against a corpreal body or object, but there is nothing in the rules that says it is through even the smallest of physical forces that the psi or magic are transfered. There are also parts of GW (don't have access to books at work) that refer to ghosts leaving ectoplasm on corpreal objects that they touch or come in contact with. That implies that there is some effect from contact between the corpreal surface of an object and the incorporeal bourdries of a ghost. There a plenty of ghost feats that imply the same, just look at the corrupting touch series of feats. So it's completely possible that an incorpreal entity could have the ability to 'touch' something in a way that will transfer a power or spell, but will still be unable to manipulate it or exert physical force. You basicly just need to differentiate between physical force and magical force (plenty of instances of this in D&D), and physical contact and magical/psionic/spiritual contact. As far as having an effect on an opponent combating other members of the party, a ghost may be immaterial, but could still distract an opponent I believe, I'm just not sure how to classify the action. They are semi-transparent, so they would obscure, to some degree, the object someone is trying to hit. They can make sounds, so they could distract or confuse an enemy, especially one with low intelligence....would it be a bluff, a feint, should the opponent have to roll v. confusion of some sort, I don't know, but there seem to be lots of possibilities. My arguement for the crystal is still that it follows the same progression you make through the planes / afterlife when you die. If you are a psion in life, you have a corporeal psi crystal. If you planeshift to the astral plane, it follows...etc., you point this out yourself, it will follow and assume form appropriate for the shift the character makes. When you die, you don't just pop up as a ghost, you shift planes, away from the material. In some instances, you come part of the way back as a ghost. It could be argued that the crystal follows you to the planes, then makes the same partial jump back, to end up, with you, as an incorporeal item. Voila' Or not, it could actually be very useful to have a corporeal manifestation of my being while I'm incorpreal since it could exert force or manipulate objects for me.
Egres 09-14-04, 04:21 PM	When you die, you don't just pop up as a ghost, you shift planes, away from the material. In some instances, you come part of the way back as a ghost. It could be argued that the crystal follows you to the planes, then makes the same partial jump back, to end up, with you, as an incorporeal item. Voila' Yeah,but when you die you become incorpooreal due to a (!) natural effect, not a magical one like Plane Shift. That's my point.
sburnhamh 09-14-04, 04:50 PM	Okay, so you planeshift due to a natural event/force/whatever. There isn't any reason to believe that the psi crystal doesn't follow. It would then follow you to the afterlife if you went there to continue your adventures, or follow you back, or part way back, or whatever, to be incorporeal on the material. It's tough to say, because I don't think it ever really speaks to the theory behind returning to the material without any 'material'. Is it just that you are out of synch with the matter in the material, but can learn to be in synch (no boy band pun intended, I swear...) through the various feats/powers that allow you to effect corpreal items? Do you actually exist on a dimension of the material plane that is one step out of tune? Are you like Patrick Swayze (sp?), and do you have to practice your feats on tin cans in a subway before you can use them on the surface???? A whole book on ghosts, and a whole book on psionics and still no answers...maybe I'll just play a fighter. :confused:
Egres 09-14-04, 07:00 PM	Okay, so you planeshift due to a natural event/force/whatever. There isn't any reason to believe that the psi crystal doesn't follow. It would then follow you to the afterlife if you went there to continue your adventures, or follow you back, or part way back, or whatever, to be incorporeal on the material. It's tough to say, because I don't think it ever really speaks to the theory behind returning to the material without any 'material'. Is it just that you are out of synch with the matter in the material, but can learn to be in synch (no boy band pun intended, I swear...) through the various feats/powers that allow you to effect corpreal items? Do you actually exist on a dimension of the material plane that is one step out of tune? Are you like Patrick Swayze (sp?), and do you have to practice your feats on tin cans in a subway before you can use them on the surface???? A whole book on ghosts, and a whole book on psionics and still no answers...maybe I'll just play a fighter. :confused: Well,Rule0 can help here. Just house rule it. In fact,you are using variant rules with the Ghostwalk campaign setting itself,isn't it?