Can you "identify" a masterwork item on sight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you "identify" a masterwork item on sight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Silverwave
12-31-04, 02:36 AM I was wondering about something.

Can one's identify a masterworked item only on sight. For example, you enter a Weapon Storage Room in a dungeon, can you tell on sight if that weapon is masterworked ? I made the player do a appraise check to let him know the item was masterwork but i'm no sure if that was necessary (i juged that if he could appraise well the object that is masterworked, he would notice that the item was a fine piece and it worth much than a normal weapon, so it would be undoublty masterworked).
sparkster4242
12-31-04, 04:00 AM SRD 3.5:

APPRAISE (INT)
Check: You can appraise common or well-known objects with a DC 12 Appraise check. Failure means that you estimate the value at 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%,) of its actual value.
Appraising a rare or exotic item requires a successful check against DC 15, 20, or higher. If the check is successful, you estimate the value correctly; failure means you cannot estimate the item’s value.
...
Action: Appraising an item takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions).
...
Untrained: For common items, failure on an untrained check means no estimate. For rare items, success means an estimate of 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%).

for most things, it would be about a DC 12 check. personally i think this DC is too high - i would peg it at about 8.
heh, if you have at least 1 rank in the skill, even a failed check will probably tell you if an item is masterwork, because even 50% of the value of the masterwork item is often still higher than the value of the standard version :p
Shard of Suzail
12-31-04, 04:57 AM A masterwork item would look noticeably different to the standard type. It would be made of better materials, would look more attractive in its shape and design and would probably carry some sort of signature or symbol that represents the maker. Masterwork items usually have special features too, which help reflect their increased performance, such as compartments for inks, handy straps or little manuals.

Overall, even without the appraise skill, it should be possible to spot masterwork in that the item advertises the fact (so as to encourage buyers or users of the item). If masterwork items looked like the normal sort, then good craftsmen would go out of business very quickly.

The only exception to this would be an item crafted for stealth. Such an item would, instead of advertising its value, do the opposite. Thus, a Drow spy, who carries a masterworked sword cane, wouldnt want to advertise that he was not, in fact a beggar. Thus, great care would be taken in the creation of the item to make it look like a tarnished stick or staff that has seen many years in the beggar's hands.

However, should a character have the chance to pick the item up and have a good poke around in its recesses as well as testing its weight, then they are quite likely to suspect that something is amiss. The main way that characters appreciate the value of a masterworked item is to pick it up, touch it and inspect it closely.

So, if characters just gave the items a quick glance over, say, by charging into a room and looking at a weapons rack, then you`d be well within your rights to call upon appraise or a suitable weapon knowledge skill check.

However, if anyone was to spend even a small time just inspecting the items situated there, i would say a roll was not needed. In mechanical terms, this could be considered as "taking ten", so some classes or feats may allow an "on the fly" examination without stopping, should they be able to take ten on such a skill when otherwise they could not.

***

As to the appraise skill, its a dubious beast at best. Hard to aquire and often not needed, say, when a character has a high craft skill in the topic concerned. I dont see many checks for appraise in my games. The only time i tend to see it pulled out is when some indeterminate item, like a statue, or a large pile of metal/loot is found. It's good for "best guesses" but i wouldnt use it for every exact pricing calculation.

Interestingly, i think appraise has a lot more applications that it does get used for. Realistically, if it were a skill i had, i would use it for evaluating the future as well as the current. Questions such as "Are we likely to find better treasure than this in the lich's tomb?" or "Is it really worth us taking all this stuff when we have to get back to town soon?" are good things to try.
evangelion1010
12-31-04, 11:19 AM I'd say it depends on the character. If the character is proficent with said weapon, he should be able to tell fairly easily by a quick 1 round examination. If he had weapon focus with a weapon, i'd allow him to do it as a free action - and any similar weapons (if you have UA, any weapon within the same weapon group)

Picking it up should automatically tell you its quality, if you've ever used that type of weapon before.

Also appraise/craft checks would tell you by sight.
Yuffie
01-01-05, 05:14 AM You can't tell an item is masterwork just by looking at it, no. The book actually addresses this point, specifically. While it's common for masterwork weapons to look particularly nice... no, you cannot just "spot" a masterwork weapon. Besides, a gemmed or otherwise fancy sword could just be a crappy sword with decoration... and to be honest, adding decoration to a weapon usually throws off it's balance unless the decoration was taken into consideration when it was being created.

So. If you see a weapon that looks unusually well-made, it's probably masterwork. But not necessarily. You cannot tell just by looking at it. I'd tell the player that it was masterwork if they practiced for a bit or used it in a fight... as any swordsman can tell you the difference between a perfectly balanced blade and a mediocre one very shortly after picking one up, but no... sight does not = masterwork detection.
DM Zoc
01-01-05, 08:22 PM Using a sword for an example:

A masterwork sword is probably exceptionally well-balanced, but you have no way of knowing this unless you pick it up and swing it around a bit.

A masterwork sword might have an intricately-etched surface, though this would probably increase the price of the item to incorporate a piece of art.

A non-masterwork sword will probably not have an intricately etched surface.

The 300gp masterwork cost probably does not include etching, so you have to decide whether the person who had it made would have gone to the extra effort.
Quarion Liadon
01-01-05, 09:21 PM You can tell a weapon is masterwork just by looking at it, even using the game mechanics.

Lets say that a character finds a masterwork longsword, but he doesn't know it's masterwork right off. The cost of the weapon would be 315 gp, much more than 15 gp for the standard longsword. If he wanted to inspect it to see if it were masterwork, he would make an Appraise check. Even if he failed the check horribly, the least amount he would guess for the weapon would be 157.5 gp (50% the price). This is still much higher than the price of a regular longsword. The fact that the weapon costs at least 10 times the price of a regular longsword should be a pretty good clue that it's masterwork. If his guess was on the other end of the scale, he might guess that its price is as much as 630 gp, which would reinforce even more that the weapon is something special.

Regular weapons don't have gems encrusted in them, or are made of special materials. Only a master smith would be able to afford doing such with a weapon, and he wouldn't waste it on any old crappy weapon.
Zilred
01-01-05, 11:02 PM ...a gemmed or otherwise fancy sword could just be a crappy sword with decoration... and to be honest, adding decoration to a weapon usually throws off it's balance unless the decoration was taken into consideration when it was being created.

A valid point. There are such things as ceremonial swords which are not built for combat, even though they look and may well be more expensive than their bland counterparts.

And I agree on how a masterwork weapon should "feel". A fighter should be able to differentiate between mundane and masterwork weapons simply by wielding them and noticing the difference in balance and consitency.
Edymnion
01-01-05, 11:58 PM I'm going to point to a good example from the Lord of the Rings movies.
Remember in Two Towers, when they're pressing the elderly and the boys into service to defend Helm's Deep? You remember the kid that couldn't have been more than 13 that was scared to death, and how Aragorn came up, took his sword, swung it a couple times, and told the kid he had a good sword?

That is, IMO, how you would tell if a sword is masterwork. Pick it up, swing it around, get a feel for the balance and how easily it responds to your movements. Just looking at a weapon, no, you can't tell if it's a diehard weapon or a pretty wall hanger. You get it in your hands, feel how it's weighted, then you'll know.
Wharin
01-02-05, 02:53 AM I'm going to point to a good example from the Lord of the Rings movies.
Remember in Two Towers, when they're pressing the elderly and the boys into service to defend Helm's Deep? You remember the kid that couldn't have been more than 13 that was scared to death, and how Aragorn came up, took his sword, swung it a couple times, and told the kid he had a good sword?

Ah... yeah thats a lot less cynical then the way i interepreted that scene. I always thought that Aragorn was just trying to make the kid feel a little better with his rusted pig-sticker. I'll go with your interpretation.

As fas as etchings and gems go, i always though that was like half the cost of making a weapon "masterwork". I mean if you are going to go thru all the trouble of making a weapon perfectly balanced, or whatnot, a true artist would make it visually appealing as well.

That said, there could always be ceremonial swords thrown in to throw players off, (which would be expensive in their own right with gems or whatever). My DM never did that to us, but i've played a few video games where the avatar for the weapon in question looked incredibally cool, but the stats were horrible.
No-man
01-04-05, 04:17 PM There are four basic cases: (Ignoring ceremonial, basically non-functional weapons)

A MW weapon could be made low-key, as the buyer may not want to display the fact he has a superior weapon. It could also be made quite "fancy" with inlaid gems, filigree, golden basket hilt, etc.

There could be a normal sword, made to look expensive or exotic, for whatever purpose the buyer wanted. Then again, most normal swords would have no exotic markings.

I agree with the opinion that someone familiar with the weapon in question could tell by its heft and balance that it was a better than average weapon. Appriasal also would tell.

Either case, it would take a bit of time to sort through a "roomful of weapons".

I think Aragorn was doing both, telling the young kid that it was a good sword both to bolster his morale, and that the sword was "serviceable" in that it seemed sound.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silverwave 12-31-04, 02:36 AM	I was wondering about something. Can one's identify a masterworked item only on sight. For example, you enter a Weapon Storage Room in a dungeon, can you tell on sight if that weapon is masterworked ? I made the player do a appraise check to let him know the item was masterwork but i'm no sure if that was necessary (i juged that if he could appraise well the object that is masterworked, he would notice that the item was a fine piece and it worth much than a normal weapon, so it would be undoublty masterworked).
sparkster4242 12-31-04, 04:00 AM	SRD 3.5: APPRAISE (INT) Check: You can appraise common or well-known objects with a DC 12 Appraise check. Failure means that you estimate the value at 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%,) of its actual value. Appraising a rare or exotic item requires a successful check against DC 15, 20, or higher. If the check is successful, you estimate the value correctly; failure means you cannot estimate the item’s value. ... Action: Appraising an item takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions). ... Untrained: For common items, failure on an untrained check means no estimate. For rare items, success means an estimate of 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%). for most things, it would be about a DC 12 check. personally i think this DC is too high - i would peg it at about 8. heh, if you have at least 1 rank in the skill, even a failed check will probably tell you if an item is masterwork, because even 50% of the value of the masterwork item is often still higher than the value of the standard version :p
Shard of Suzail 12-31-04, 04:57 AM	A masterwork item would look noticeably different to the standard type. It would be made of better materials, would look more attractive in its shape and design and would probably carry some sort of signature or symbol that represents the maker. Masterwork items usually have special features too, which help reflect their increased performance, such as compartments for inks, handy straps or little manuals. Overall, even without the appraise skill, it should be possible to spot masterwork in that the item advertises the fact (so as to encourage buyers or users of the item). If masterwork items looked like the normal sort, then good craftsmen would go out of business very quickly. The only exception to this would be an item crafted for stealth. Such an item would, instead of advertising its value, do the opposite. Thus, a Drow spy, who carries a masterworked sword cane, wouldnt want to advertise that he was not, in fact a beggar. Thus, great care would be taken in the creation of the item to make it look like a tarnished stick or staff that has seen many years in the beggar's hands. However, should a character have the chance to pick the item up and have a good poke around in its recesses as well as testing its weight, then they are quite likely to suspect that something is amiss. The main way that characters appreciate the value of a masterworked item is to pick it up, touch it and inspect it closely. So, if characters just gave the items a quick glance over, say, by charging into a room and looking at a weapons rack, then you`d be well within your rights to call upon appraise or a suitable weapon knowledge skill check. However, if anyone was to spend even a small time just inspecting the items situated there, i would say a roll was not needed. In mechanical terms, this could be considered as "taking ten", so some classes or feats may allow an "on the fly" examination without stopping, should they be able to take ten on such a skill when otherwise they could not. *** As to the appraise skill, its a dubious beast at best. Hard to aquire and often not needed, say, when a character has a high craft skill in the topic concerned. I dont see many checks for appraise in my games. The only time i tend to see it pulled out is when some indeterminate item, like a statue, or a large pile of metal/loot is found. It's good for "best guesses" but i wouldnt use it for every exact pricing calculation. Interestingly, i think appraise has a lot more applications that it does get used for. Realistically, if it were a skill i had, i would use it for evaluating the future as well as the current. Questions such as "Are we likely to find better treasure than this in the lich's tomb?" or "Is it really worth us taking all this stuff when we have to get back to town soon?" are good things to try.
evangelion1010 12-31-04, 11:19 AM	I'd say it depends on the character. If the character is proficent with said weapon, he should be able to tell fairly easily by a quick 1 round examination. If he had weapon focus with a weapon, i'd allow him to do it as a free action - and any similar weapons (if you have UA, any weapon within the same weapon group) Picking it up should automatically tell you its quality, if you've ever used that type of weapon before. Also appraise/craft checks would tell you by sight.
Yuffie 01-01-05, 05:14 AM	You can't tell an item is masterwork just by looking at it, no. The book actually addresses this point, specifically. While it's common for masterwork weapons to look particularly nice... no, you cannot just "spot" a masterwork weapon. Besides, a gemmed or otherwise fancy sword could just be a crappy sword with decoration... and to be honest, adding decoration to a weapon usually throws off it's balance unless the decoration was taken into consideration when it was being created. So. If you see a weapon that looks unusually well-made, it's probably masterwork. But not necessarily. You cannot tell just by looking at it. I'd tell the player that it was masterwork if they practiced for a bit or used it in a fight... as any swordsman can tell you the difference between a perfectly balanced blade and a mediocre one very shortly after picking one up, but no... sight does not = masterwork detection.
DM Zoc 01-01-05, 08:22 PM	Using a sword for an example: A masterwork sword is probably exceptionally well-balanced, but you have no way of knowing this unless you pick it up and swing it around a bit. A masterwork sword might have an intricately-etched surface, though this would probably increase the price of the item to incorporate a piece of art. A non-masterwork sword will probably not have an intricately etched surface. The 300gp masterwork cost probably does not include etching, so you have to decide whether the person who had it made would have gone to the extra effort.
Quarion Liadon 01-01-05, 09:21 PM	You can tell a weapon is masterwork just by looking at it, even using the game mechanics. Lets say that a character finds a masterwork longsword, but he doesn't know it's masterwork right off. The cost of the weapon would be 315 gp, much more than 15 gp for the standard longsword. If he wanted to inspect it to see if it were masterwork, he would make an Appraise check. Even if he failed the check horribly, the least amount he would guess for the weapon would be 157.5 gp (50% the price). This is still much higher than the price of a regular longsword. The fact that the weapon costs at least 10 times the price of a regular longsword should be a pretty good clue that it's masterwork. If his guess was on the other end of the scale, he might guess that its price is as much as 630 gp, which would reinforce even more that the weapon is something special. Regular weapons don't have gems encrusted in them, or are made of special materials. Only a master smith would be able to afford doing such with a weapon, and he wouldn't waste it on any old crappy weapon.
Zilred 01-01-05, 11:02 PM	...a gemmed or otherwise fancy sword could just be a crappy sword with decoration... and to be honest, adding decoration to a weapon usually throws off it's balance unless the decoration was taken into consideration when it was being created. A valid point. There are such things as ceremonial swords which are not built for combat, even though they look and may well be more expensive than their bland counterparts. And I agree on how a masterwork weapon should "feel". A fighter should be able to differentiate between mundane and masterwork weapons simply by wielding them and noticing the difference in balance and consitency.
Edymnion 01-01-05, 11:58 PM	I'm going to point to a good example from the Lord of the Rings movies. Remember in Two Towers, when they're pressing the elderly and the boys into service to defend Helm's Deep? You remember the kid that couldn't have been more than 13 that was scared to death, and how Aragorn came up, took his sword, swung it a couple times, and told the kid he had a good sword? That is, IMO, how you would tell if a sword is masterwork. Pick it up, swing it around, get a feel for the balance and how easily it responds to your movements. Just looking at a weapon, no, you can't tell if it's a diehard weapon or a pretty wall hanger. You get it in your hands, feel how it's weighted, then you'll know.
Wharin 01-02-05, 02:53 AM	I'm going to point to a good example from the Lord of the Rings movies. Remember in Two Towers, when they're pressing the elderly and the boys into service to defend Helm's Deep? You remember the kid that couldn't have been more than 13 that was scared to death, and how Aragorn came up, took his sword, swung it a couple times, and told the kid he had a good sword? Ah... yeah thats a lot less cynical then the way i interepreted that scene. I always thought that Aragorn was just trying to make the kid feel a little better with his rusted pig-sticker. I'll go with your interpretation. As fas as etchings and gems go, i always though that was like half the cost of making a weapon "masterwork". I mean if you are going to go thru all the trouble of making a weapon perfectly balanced, or whatnot, a true artist would make it visually appealing as well. That said, there could always be ceremonial swords thrown in to throw players off, (which would be expensive in their own right with gems or whatever). My DM never did that to us, but i've played a few video games where the avatar for the weapon in question looked incredibally cool, but the stats were horrible.
No-man 01-04-05, 04:17 PM	There are four basic cases: (Ignoring ceremonial, basically non-functional weapons) A MW weapon could be made low-key, as the buyer may not want to display the fact he has a superior weapon. It could also be made quite "fancy" with inlaid gems, filigree, golden basket hilt, etc. There could be a normal sword, made to look expensive or exotic, for whatever purpose the buyer wanted. Then again, most normal swords would have no exotic markings. I agree with the opinion that someone familiar with the weapon in question could tell by its heft and balance that it was a better than average weapon. Appriasal also would tell. Either case, it would take a bit of time to sort through a "roomful of weapons". I think Aragorn was doing both, telling the young kid that it was a good sword both to bolster his morale, and that the sword was "serviceable" in that it seemed sound.