Can you Finesse a double weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you Finesse a double weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Starman IX
03-03-06, 02:19 AM Most double weapons say "this acts as a one handed and light weapon when two weapon fighting". Weapon Finesse works on light weapons. Two Weapon Fighting says you get lesser penalties when you fight with a light weapon. Am I thinking right?
Polaris
03-03-06, 03:10 AM Most double weapons say "this acts as a one handed and light weapon when two weapon fighting". Weapon Finesse works on light weapons. Two Weapon Fighting says you get lesser penalties when you fight with a light weapon. Am I thinking right?

No, you aren't. A double-weapon at the end of the day is still a single, two-handed weapon. There is only one finessable two-handed weapon in the game, the spiked chain, and that is not a double weapon.

The phrase acts as a one-handed and light weapon is not the same as saying that it is. It merely tells you what TWF penalties to apply and what damage modifiers to apply, i.e. -2 per attack if you have the TWF feat, x1 Str multiplier for on-hand and x1/2 for off hand.

-Polaris
White_Wizard
03-03-06, 05:27 AM Most double weapons say "this acts as a one handed and light weapon when two weapon fighting". Weapon Finesse works on light weapons. Two Weapon Fighting says you get lesser penalties when you fight with a light weapon. Am I thinking right?
No for Weapon Finesse: you can't use it since the weapon (say, a double sword) is two-handed.
Yes for TWF: you get penalties as if you were using a light weapn in off-hand (-2/-2) instead of the -4/-4 for two one-handed weapons. Remember to use only half Str bonus for secondary blade.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-03-06, 10:08 AM You could make an argument for the secondary end of the weapon being Finessable...but that doesn't get you any real advantage, since you are still using your Str for the better head, so why did you waste a feat on Finesse?
mvincent
03-03-06, 01:28 PM You could make an argument for the secondary end of the weapon being FinessableExactly.

From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#doubleWeapons):
"A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons"

From the 3.0 FAQ:
"Using both ends of a double weapon works exactly
like fighting with a one-handed weapon in your primary hand
and a light weapon in your off hand"
Emphasis is their's

Note: the argument for disallowing finesse on the 'light' end is somewhat similar to the argument that was previously used to justify both ends getting x1.5 Str bonus (i.e. it is still a 2-handed weapon... only the attack penalties apply). This was incorrect however.
RavenDrake
03-04-06, 07:01 PM The deciding factor for this is... do you consider the offhand head of the double weapon a light weapon for all things.

Here's an acid test:

Would you allow both heads to benefit from the bonus of Power attack? If you answered no, that the offhand head can't, then you're treating it as a light weapon for the purposes of feats. If you do that, then congratulations, you should also allow it to be finessed.

Though, as ClementWillowbreaker pointed out... why would you want to? If you're using Str for one head and Dex for the other, what's the point?
draconic_swine
03-04-06, 11:28 PM Though, as ClementWillowbreaker pointed out... why would you want to? If you're using Str for one head and Dex for the other, what's the point?

Well, assumably the character has a high Dexterity score (to be able to take the various TWF feats), so maybe their Dexterity is higher than their Strength, and they want to have a better attack bonus for one end. Which would then beg the question as to why they don't just fight with two light weapons, but that's another story.
bondious
03-05-06, 01:27 AM Well, assumably the character has a high Dexterity score (to be able to take the various TWF feats), so maybe their Dexterity is higher than their Strength, and they want to have a better attack bonus for one end. Which would then beg the question as to why they don't just fight with two light weapons, but that's another story.

Well, it could be that pretty much ALL (that I've seen) light weapons have a maximum damage of d6 each, whereas most double weapons will do d8 or better. Maybe damage is a motivating factor, though they could always take Exotic Prof (bastard sword) and pair that off with a short sword, to even it all out. Would be a lot of feats, though.

Could also be a style thing. Some people like their weapons, even if a better one or combination is available, but they STILL want to utilize this to it's most effective.

Still ANOTHER thought, it could be that the double weapon is magic, with one end having the Defending property. If this is the case, and if the character's dex is better, he/she might use THAT END as the "light weapon", so he/she can have extra AC and not loose out on attack power.

[Example: A fighter named Ecks has a 15 str (+2) and an 18 dex (+4), and wields a +2 Flaming/+2 Defending Double Sword. Normally, if the "light side" of the weapon is valid for weapon finesse, Ecks would have a +4 to hit with the Flaming end and +6 to hit with the Defending end (not taking into account base attack bonus or other pluses or minuses, to keep it simple). If Ecks wanted to take advantage of his Defending, he could add +2 to his AC and his attacks would even out at +4 for each side.]

The deciding factor for this is... do you consider the offhand head of the double weapon a light weapon for all things.

Here's an acid test:

Would you allow both heads to benefit from the bonus of Power attack? If you answered no, that the offhand head can't, then you're treating it as a light weapon for the purposes of feats. If you do that, then congratulations, you should also allow it to be finessed.

I agree.
supernerd8916
03-05-06, 01:02 PM ladies and gentlemen, I do believe THAT is a winning argument. :D If you already have a magic twohanded weapon, ask your DM and argue the cases these people have been pointing out. if its non magical or you are thinking about making it magic, scrap it for a one hander and a light, or two lights.
jaelis
03-05-06, 02:13 PM The text of Power Attack specifically says how it works with double weapons. You can't really assume that all feats should follow the same guidelines. Maybe they put the text in Power Attack because it is an exception.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starman IX 03-03-06, 02:19 AM	Most double weapons say "this acts as a one handed and light weapon when two weapon fighting". Weapon Finesse works on light weapons. Two Weapon Fighting says you get lesser penalties when you fight with a light weapon. Am I thinking right?
Polaris 03-03-06, 03:10 AM	Most double weapons say "this acts as a one handed and light weapon when two weapon fighting". Weapon Finesse works on light weapons. Two Weapon Fighting says you get lesser penalties when you fight with a light weapon. Am I thinking right? No, you aren't. A double-weapon at the end of the day is still a single, two-handed weapon. There is only one finessable two-handed weapon in the game, the spiked chain, and that is not a double weapon. The phrase acts as a one-handed and light weapon is not the same as saying that it is. It merely tells you what TWF penalties to apply and what damage modifiers to apply, i.e. -2 per attack if you have the TWF feat, x1 Str multiplier for on-hand and x1/2 for off hand. -Polaris
White_Wizard 03-03-06, 05:27 AM	Most double weapons say "this acts as a one handed and light weapon when two weapon fighting". Weapon Finesse works on light weapons. Two Weapon Fighting says you get lesser penalties when you fight with a light weapon. Am I thinking right? No for Weapon Finesse: you can't use it since the weapon (say, a double sword) is two-handed. Yes for TWF: you get penalties as if you were using a light weapn in off-hand (-2/-2) instead of the -4/-4 for two one-handed weapons. Remember to use only half Str bonus for secondary blade.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-03-06, 10:08 AM	You could make an argument for the secondary end of the weapon being Finessable...but that doesn't get you any real advantage, since you are still using your Str for the better head, so why did you waste a feat on Finesse?
mvincent 03-03-06, 01:28 PM	You could make an argument for the secondary end of the weapon being FinessableExactly. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#doubleWeapons): "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons" From the 3.0 FAQ: "Using both ends of a double weapon works exactly like fighting with a one-handed weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand" Emphasis is their's Note: the argument for disallowing finesse on the 'light' end is somewhat similar to the argument that was previously used to justify both ends getting x1.5 Str bonus (i.e. it is still a 2-handed weapon... only the attack penalties apply). This was incorrect however.
RavenDrake 03-04-06, 07:01 PM	The deciding factor for this is... do you consider the offhand head of the double weapon a light weapon for all things. Here's an acid test: Would you allow both heads to benefit from the bonus of Power attack? If you answered no, that the offhand head can't, then you're treating it as a light weapon for the purposes of feats. If you do that, then congratulations, you should also allow it to be finessed. Though, as ClementWillowbreaker pointed out... why would you want to? If you're using Str for one head and Dex for the other, what's the point?
draconic_swine 03-04-06, 11:28 PM	Though, as ClementWillowbreaker pointed out... why would you want to? If you're using Str for one head and Dex for the other, what's the point? Well, assumably the character has a high Dexterity score (to be able to take the various TWF feats), so maybe their Dexterity is higher than their Strength, and they want to have a better attack bonus for one end. Which would then beg the question as to why they don't just fight with two light weapons, but that's another story.
bondious 03-05-06, 01:27 AM	Well, assumably the character has a high Dexterity score (to be able to take the various TWF feats), so maybe their Dexterity is higher than their Strength, and they want to have a better attack bonus for one end. Which would then beg the question as to why they don't just fight with two light weapons, but that's another story. Well, it could be that pretty much ALL (that I've seen) light weapons have a maximum damage of d6 each, whereas most double weapons will do d8 or better. Maybe damage is a motivating factor, though they could always take Exotic Prof (bastard sword) and pair that off with a short sword, to even it all out. Would be a lot of feats, though. Could also be a style thing. Some people like their weapons, even if a better one or combination is available, but they STILL want to utilize this to it's most effective. Still ANOTHER thought, it could be that the double weapon is magic, with one end having the Defending property. If this is the case, and if the character's dex is better, he/she might use THAT END as the "light weapon", so he/she can have extra AC and not loose out on attack power. [Example: A fighter named Ecks has a 15 str (+2) and an 18 dex (+4), and wields a +2 Flaming/+2 Defending Double Sword. Normally, if the "light side" of the weapon is valid for weapon finesse, Ecks would have a +4 to hit with the Flaming end and +6 to hit with the Defending end (not taking into account base attack bonus or other pluses or minuses, to keep it simple). If Ecks wanted to take advantage of his Defending, he could add +2 to his AC and his attacks would even out at +4 for each side.] The deciding factor for this is... do you consider the offhand head of the double weapon a light weapon for all things. Here's an acid test: Would you allow both heads to benefit from the bonus of Power attack? If you answered no, that the offhand head can't, then you're treating it as a light weapon for the purposes of feats. If you do that, then congratulations, you should also allow it to be finessed. I agree.
supernerd8916 03-05-06, 01:02 PM	ladies and gentlemen, I do believe THAT is a winning argument. :D If you already have a magic twohanded weapon, ask your DM and argue the cases these people have been pointing out. if its non magical or you are thinking about making it magic, scrap it for a one hander and a light, or two lights.
jaelis 03-05-06, 02:13 PM	The text of Power Attack specifically says how it works with double weapons. You can't really assume that all feats should follow the same guidelines. Maybe they put the text in Power Attack because it is an exception.