Can you GDC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you GDC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
02-27-07, 01:49 PM Does the PHB CDG specify what kind of weapon you must use to CGD, or can you do it with any weapon, including your fists?
Merestil Haye
02-27-07, 01:51 PM The only restriction on performing a CdG is that you must be capable of dealing lethal damage, and only lethal damage counts towards determining the Fort save DC.
FrostHammer
02-27-07, 02:01 PM Alright, so monks are fine with GDCs...
Loki5654
02-27-07, 02:01 PM Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Hmm. It never actually says the weapon needs to be capable of dealing lethal damage.
FrostHammer
02-27-07, 02:11 PM On an unrelated note, does unarmed strike count as a two-handed weapon since "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" (PHB, p41)?

It'd be nice if you can Power Attack with unarmed and get 2x damage per point of to-hit lost. Shock Trooper Monk anyone?
MagnaSecuris
02-27-07, 02:21 PM I would say you could if you did't flurry or fight two-handed in another way. If you put your whole body into the PA hit, instead of several smaller hits.
Zherog
02-27-07, 02:46 PM On an unrelated note, does unarmed strike count as a two-handed weapon since "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" (PHB, p41)?

It'd be nice if you can Power Attack with unarmed and get 2x damage per point of to-hit lost. Shock Trooper Monk anyone?

No, an unarmed strike is a light weapon that allows Power Attack (unlike just about every other light weapon). You can't use it 2-handed, though.
Zherog
02-27-07, 02:47 PM Hmm. It never actually says the weapon needs to be capable of dealing lethal damage.

It also actually prevents some ranged weapons (slings, darts, shuriken, etc) from being used - since the only ones it allows are bows and crossbows.
runestar
02-27-07, 10:12 PM Hmm. It never actually says the weapon needs to be capable of dealing lethal damage.
That is correct. You could CDG with a sap. I think the confusion stemmed from all the "how do you CDG a troll" threads.:)
Merestil Haye
02-27-07, 10:53 PM I was looking around earlier, but then had to go out.
The discussion I remembered seeing on CdG with a nonlethal weapon is in the FAQ. Basically the designer's position is that there is absolutely no rules on what to do in such a case - they then set about inventing some.

Thus no, you can't CdG - all you can do is knock someone unconscioius. Which might well be good enough.
paladin2019
02-27-07, 11:00 PM Alright, so monks are fine with GDCs...

I would assume you could break someone's neck without a manufactured weapon....
jaelis
02-28-07, 12:00 AM Here's the FAQ entry:

What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace?

This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these:
When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points.

Also, remember that you can choose to deal lethal damage with any weapon that normally deals nonlethal damage (like a sap or unarmed strike) if you take a -4 penalty on the attack roll. And vice versa if you want to deal nonlethal damage with a normal weapon. Since a CdG automatically hits, the penalty is irrelevant, so you can deal either type of damage with any weapon.

(Perhaps not a merciful weapon though, depending on how a DM rules it.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 01:49 PM	Does the PHB CDG specify what kind of weapon you must use to CGD, or can you do it with any weapon, including your fists?
Merestil Haye 02-27-07, 01:51 PM	The only restriction on performing a CdG is that you must be capable of dealing lethal damage, and only lethal damage counts towards determining the Fort save DC.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 02:01 PM	Alright, so monks are fine with GDCs...
Loki5654 02-27-07, 02:01 PM	Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). Hmm. It never actually says the weapon needs to be capable of dealing lethal damage.
FrostHammer 02-27-07, 02:11 PM	On an unrelated note, does unarmed strike count as a two-handed weapon since "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" (PHB, p41)? It'd be nice if you can Power Attack with unarmed and get 2x damage per point of to-hit lost. Shock Trooper Monk anyone?
MagnaSecuris 02-27-07, 02:21 PM	I would say you could if you did't flurry or fight two-handed in another way. If you put your whole body into the PA hit, instead of several smaller hits.
Zherog 02-27-07, 02:46 PM	On an unrelated note, does unarmed strike count as a two-handed weapon since "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed" (PHB, p41)? It'd be nice if you can Power Attack with unarmed and get 2x damage per point of to-hit lost. Shock Trooper Monk anyone? No, an unarmed strike is a light weapon that allows Power Attack (unlike just about every other light weapon). You can't use it 2-handed, though.
Zherog 02-27-07, 02:47 PM	Hmm. It never actually says the weapon needs to be capable of dealing lethal damage. It also actually prevents some ranged weapons (slings, darts, shuriken, etc) from being used - since the only ones it allows are bows and crossbows.
runestar 02-27-07, 10:12 PM	Hmm. It never actually says the weapon needs to be capable of dealing lethal damage. That is correct. You could CDG with a sap. I think the confusion stemmed from all the "how do you CDG a troll" threads.:)
Merestil Haye 02-27-07, 10:53 PM	I was looking around earlier, but then had to go out. The discussion I remembered seeing on CdG with a nonlethal weapon is in the FAQ. Basically the designer's position is that there is absolutely no rules on what to do in such a case - they then set about inventing some. Thus no, you can't CdG - all you can do is knock someone unconscioius. Which might well be good enough.
paladin2019 02-27-07, 11:00 PM	Alright, so monks are fine with GDCs... I would assume you could break someone's neck without a manufactured weapon....
jaelis 02-28-07, 12:00 AM	Here's the FAQ entry: What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace? This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these: When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points. Also, remember that you can choose to deal lethal damage with any weapon that normally deals nonlethal damage (like a sap or unarmed strike) if you take a -4 penalty on the attack roll. And vice versa if you want to deal nonlethal damage with a normal weapon. Since a CdG automatically hits, the penalty is irrelevant, so you can deal either type of damage with any weapon. (Perhaps not a merciful weapon though, depending on how a DM rules it.)