Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skywyze 02-16-05, 03:45 PM	Can you make an item of Anti-Magic field? Or would it cancel itself out since magic items don't work in the field? And yes, I realize it'd be horribly expensive.
Santrilla 02-16-05, 04:32 PM	It should work fine. The item would fire off the antimagic field, and then said field would suppress the item. However, when the field faded or when the item was taken out of the area, it would work again. Sort of a 'last stand' thing. Cost-wise, let's assume a 1/day command word rod. It'd be 6 x 11 x 1800 = 118800, / 5 = 23760gp. The effect would last 110 minutes.
Warspite 02-16-05, 04:33 PM	It would negate itself unless it was an artifact level item.
Aracor 02-16-05, 04:52 PM	The bulwark of antimagic from the Draconomicon isn't an artifact, and it seems to do very well. ~Aracor
Norseman 02-16-05, 05:03 PM	You can have an item that makes an antimagic field where it is, and then makes another as soon as it can. Just like in the case of a spellcaster, the field can be created without requiring any further maintenance. If the field supresses the item that generated it, and the item that generated it has been rigged to create an anti-magic field whenever possible, then as soon as the field goes down, it'll reactivate it. Problem is, you'll have occasional 1 round breaks in the field. It's not a critical problem, but it does leave something to be desired. Cost of a 24 hour field generator? Let's call it a wondrous item. The antimagic stone needs 12 charges per day if antimagic field is cast by a 12th level caster. Let's say it's command word activated, so 6x12x1,800=129,600 Now we need the 12 charges per day, so 129,600/ (5/12) =311,040 and double cost for uncustomary space limitation (since we can just set this item down, but feel free to make a cheaper variant that's worn as a necklace or something) so 622,080 gp total. Tha'ts more expensive than any other item in the DM's guide FYI. A charged version which is worn would be considerably cheaper. Especially nice if you're planning on fighting mages but don't cast spells yourself.
Norseman 02-16-05, 05:04 PM	It would negate itself unless it was an artifact level item. It will negate itself, but in order to do that the field must have already been made, which means it will produce the field and then turn off. At that point, the field is independent of the item, so it stays on.
Rulebook 02-16-05, 05:16 PM	dude, in one of the complete books there's a set of Adamantine manacles that do an antimagic field 5'. an object can radiatate an antimagic field without nullifying itself, by the same virtue that two overlapping antimagic fields dont cancel each other out.
Nom 02-16-05, 06:41 PM	Thank you, Rulebook, for being the voice of common sense. I was also going to point out that anti-magic field is a spell, but it does not suppress itself. Notice too that an AMF merely suppresses the effects of magic. The spells are still there in the background (durations still expire, summoned creatures return afterwards), but don't actually create a magical effect while inside the field. But no, an object with a continuous AMF doesn't fibrillate: it just radiates an AMF as normal.
Kulthos 02-16-05, 07:04 PM	The big super item of an old campaign of mine was a two-handed sword that gave off a huge (miles in radius) anti-magic zone. It was great for fighting the arch lich and his undead legions hundreds of years ago, and is now just a pain in the butt. Questing for said item was a real joy. No healing, no magic, just a lot of grief.
Obscure One 02-16-05, 07:11 PM	Anti-Magic is simply the opposite to magic sharing a relation to magic the same way negative energy relates to positive energy, light relates to darkness, and so on. With this mindset, an item of anti-magic wouldn't be negated by anti-magic, the same way negative energy doesn't effect or even heals beings governed by negative energy. The effects of anti-magic can be justifed by the relation of light and dark, because in the presence of absolute light there can be no darkness, just like in the presence of anti-magic there can be no magic. Don't over think the ideal of anti-magic, it's just the other side of the same coin.
Thorak 02-16-05, 09:52 PM	I worked this out once. A continuous, permanent AMF-generating item would cost 198,000gp, coming in just under Epic; Base cost for a continuous item; spell level * caster level * 2000gp 6 * 11 (minimum needed to cast 6th level spells as a wizard) * 2000gp. 132,000gp. Now, AMF has a 10min/level duration, so it's 1.5x that price. 198,000gp. For an Amulet of Antimagic. Permanent, undispellable immunity to all forms of magic. Sure, it's expensive. Spend the rest of your money on Adamantium Masterwork gear, since you don't need magical stuff. A command-word activated one would be cheaper, last 2 hours at a time, and be easy to turn off. But you'd have to turn it on, meaning you might get nailed by a spell now and then. But it makes getting healed easier.
Edymnion 02-16-05, 09:56 PM	dude, in one of the complete books there's a set of Adamantine manacles that do an antimagic field 5'.Yup, they exist. They're one of the main reasons why you should never use Psionics Are Differant in a mixed campaign. Give a PsiWarrior a pair of those manicles, and all of his psionic gear works 100%, all of his psionic abilities are at full power, while anything he gets close to has it's magic shut down. And a great deal of Damage Reduction and armor bonuses are magical in nature. It gets nasty real fast.
Obscure One 02-16-05, 10:52 PM	Yup, they exist. They're one of the main reasons why you should never use Psionics Are Differant in a mixed campaign. Give a PsiWarrior a pair of those manicles, and all of his psionic gear works 100%, all of his psionic abilities are at full power, while anything he gets close to has it's magic shut down. And a great deal of Damage Reduction and armor bonuses are magical in nature. It gets nasty real fast. Not to change the subject, but I've only glanced at the Psionics book a few times, and haven't had any time with the expanded version. How exactly are psionic spells manifested that they would lead someone to differentiate between them from normal magic? Aren't they just a simplified version of the Sorceror with a different spell list?
Rulebook 02-17-05, 12:34 AM	well, originally (since 2e at least) psionics were seperate from arcane and divine magic. This means only psionics could detect and counter psionics (except in a few cases where certian magics had semi-psionic effects). But you couldnt Dispell Magic, Anti-Magic, or Detect Magic psionics because they werent magic. they brought in the options to make psionics a third form of magic (arcane/divine/psionic) to eliminate this, because otherwise even a few psionic powers could be seriously unbalancing. but now they're just another magic user, so its all good.
janusthinker 02-17-05, 02:58 AM	Yup, they exist. They're one of the main reasons why you should never use Psionics Are Differant in a mixed campaign. Give a PsiWarrior a pair of those manicles, and all of his psionic gear works 100%, all of his psionic abilities are at full power, while anything he gets close to has it's magic shut down. And a great deal of Damage Reduction and armor bonuses are magical in nature. It gets nasty real fast. Err...I run my campaign with Psionics are Different, and I'd have no problem with that item. Granted, running such a campaign does create inherent imbalances, but as DM, one can compensate... Anyway, the specifics of the item: it radiates a 5' Antimagic Field-thus, it would cover a medium wearer, but nothing else. Your Psychic Warrior would have a very nice defense against getting zapped with spells, but wouldn't directly interfere with the spells and/or damage reduction anyone around him has. Now, the Bulwark of Antimagic from the Draconomicon....I think there's a reason that tiny, tiny Antimagic field costs 128,000 gp to get. Obviously the Bulwark is underpriced.
alexanderwales 02-17-05, 03:07 AM	Anyway, the specifics of the item: it radiates a 5' Antimagic Field-thus, it would cover a medium wearer, but nothing else. Your Psychic Warrior would have a very nice defense against getting zapped with spells, but wouldn't directly interfere with the spells and/or damage reduction anyone around him has. Unless, of course, he grapples, in which case the advantage over other warrior types could be mammoth.
janusthinker 02-17-05, 03:46 AM	Unless, of course, he grapples, in which case the advantage over other warrior types could be mammoth. ::sound of a head bonking on a desk:: Quite. Rather silly of me to miss that.
tarkin 02-17-05, 11:38 AM	1) It does work. Antimagic does NOT negate anti-magic, just as it does NOT negate a Wall of Force. 2) It would NOT be priced at the 6th level x 11 x 2000 gp = 132,000 At the very least an Anti-Magic item should start at 200,000 for an always on item. Anti Magic is VERY powerfull, and the spell itself has a major limitation of preventing the caster from casting more spells. It is very easy to abuse. Here are some "abusive" examples. Arrows of 10' anti-magic, good for 10 rounds of antimagic, activating directly after being shot from a bow. So these arrows can benefit from a +5 bow, allow you to use your Gloves +6 of dex when you fire them, etc. etc. etc. But your enemey's magical defenses do not work. And it interupts any spell casting he has. Axe head of 1 inch antimagic. The ax head is itself anti-magic all the time, but only one inch. You can use your belt of giant strength, etc. etc. but the axe ignores your enemies magial protections. Gluebags of anti-magic. Activate once they stick to anything, anti-magic lasts for 10 rounds. All these items are clearly epic level items.
Santrilla 02-17-05, 11:48 AM	Axe head of 1 inch antimagic. The ax head is itself anti-magic all the time, but only one inch. You can use your belt of giant strength, etc. etc. but the axe ignores your enemies magial protections. One inch really isn't much. As a DM i would rule that a tiny antimagic field wouldn't allow you to bypass _all_ magical defenses; for example, if the target is wearing gloves of dexterity and you hit him in the leg, the gloves remain in effect. Difficult to regulate, as D&D has no set system for where you hit someone.
Drachasor 02-17-05, 12:31 PM	I don't think that Axe is epic, as it can't have any other effects on it. It is actually a rather neat item, an Adamantine Axe of Magic Impunity--ignores all deflection, armor bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and other AC modifiers (except for Dex, insight, competence, and Dodge) that come from magic. Pretty neat, but not overpowering, imho. -Drachaosr
Thorak 02-17-05, 12:44 PM	1) It does work. Antimagic does NOT negate anti-magic, just as it does NOT negate a Wall of Force. 2) It would NOT be priced at the 6th level x 11 x 2000 gp = 132,000 At the very least an Anti-Magic item should start at 200,000 for an always on item. Anti Magic is VERY powerfull, and the spell itself has a major limitation of preventing the caster from casting more spells. Out of curiosity, any basis for this? And I'll note that because Anti-magic Field is a 10min/level spell, that price is multiplied by 1.5, to give the final 198,000. So really close to your 200k price. But just shy of being epic. Yes, it's very powerful. But also very limiting. If you base your character on AMF, they will never benefit from magic. The one exception can be healing, by setting the item down 10' away and getting healed, and other similar permanent effects, but anything like buffs and such won't work. Nor will magical gear. Or Su or Sp racial or class abilities. It's a heck of a limitation, for a heck of a bonus. Consider, as a Fighter; No magical buffs No magical weapons, so you lose out on potentially +5 to hit and better damage No magical armor, so your AC is worse. No magical protective items, so your AC is comparatively really bad. No way to penetrate most DRs. You can handle different damage types, and different substance vulnerabilities, but forget about ever penetrating DR 10/Fire or DR 15/Holy. It seems to me that, considering the above and the cost, it's balanced.
skywyze 02-17-05, 01:09 PM	Actually, if you base your character around it, you can just keep stacking templates on your character. Racial bonuses still apply in anti-magic fields (so long as they're mundane bonuses), so you can be powerful even without magic gear. And then anti-magic field won't be so bad.
Vharuck 02-17-05, 01:29 PM	Just keep stacking templates? First off, no DM I know of allows a PC to pick templates instead of classes unless it fits their story (ie. they were turned into fiendish mockeries of themselves by an evil cleric). Second, you'd just have a high ECL with low HP and BAB.
Griff_Goodbeard 02-17-05, 02:01 PM	Acctually isn't DR/holy a Su ability and therefore supressed in an AMF? :confused:
Melpomene 02-17-05, 02:48 PM	Just inter interject pointlessly, it could eminate one-dimentionally (forming a cone, or even a wall outward) without the effect ever touching the item. ...and because I hate spellcasters: Ribbon of Limitless Purity Cloak Slot Affinity 9*17*2,000 (306,000, or 17th level gear equivilant) As a free action, used autimatically at the begining of the weilder's turn (whether or not the user wishes), the Ribbon creates a 65 foot burst centered on the wearer. Any other nonartifact magic items caught in the burst are dispelled permantly, and any ongoing magical effects end instantly.
Thorak 02-17-05, 03:50 PM	Acctually isn't DR/holy a Su ability and therefore supressed in an AMF? :confused: The SRD being useless, only says that DR is either Ex or Su. It may be that most DR/Holy are Su, and thus suppressed, but I can't check either specific cases (since they're not listed as either in the monster SRD entries), or find a general statement that they must be. If they are Su, they're suppressed, though, clearly. If the critter's in melee with you, of course.
tarkin 02-17-05, 04:00 PM	The basis for Anti-magic not interefering with other Anti-magic is the fact that two anti-magic spells do not interefere with each other. They also don't turn themselves off. I was princing 200k before the 1.5 multiplier for making it constant. Your limitations assume the character is going for the full 10' version - something they DON'T have to do. Like I said, look at the arrows and axe head I mentioned. Anti-Magic is very easy to abuse because it has a lot of self-limitations, such as those you mentioned, which people can try to get around. My anti-magic Archer fighter HAS magical buffs, a Magical weapon, magical armor, etc. etc Also, most DR's that take magic to counter are SU abilities, including almost all Holy . I.E. If you have DR/Magic, or DR/Holy, then it goes away inside an anti-magic field.
Vatras 02-17-05, 06:03 PM	Well, I dont know about AMF. My players have access to AM spells in several ways and after having tried it out they have more or less let it be (except for special cases), as it hinders them more than it helps.
God of Slivers 02-17-05, 09:39 PM	Check the MM errata, they list what type (su or ex) each type of DR is.
The Simbul 02-18-05, 01:45 AM	You know there is a reason why no magic items in the Core Rules can create an Antimagic Field effect by means other than spell-completion.... The sole balancing factor behind Antimagic Field's complete, arbitrary, and virtually uncounterable supression of all magic within its confines is the fact that it will be employed by a being whose primary capabilities involve the use of magic, and as such will be crippled subtancially by it's use. Allowing a character whose abilities are only mildly mitigated by antimagic by comparison to the mage, to use an antimagic field item, would be obsurdly imbalancing (along with many of the non-core rules abuses of Antimagic in conjuction with the ability to bypass it.) Arguing that a Fighter should be able to use an Antimagic Amulet because "they get some bonuses from items too" is like arguing that a Wizard should be able to have a feat with melee-based prereqs that grants them Damage Reduction 100/- in exhange for the limitation that they cannot engage in the attack or full attack actions in combat. As for the reason why an Antimagic Field item should NOT use the standard price calculation formulas in the DMG, it is for the exact same reason why a continuous True Strike ring should not have a market price of 8,000gp. The Magic Item creation tables are guidelines for adjudicating the price of most items. When a given item is egregiously abuseable, or grants a benefit far greater than those items of an equal calculated value (Mantle of Spell Resistance?), then its base price should be modified subtancially to reflect those factors.
quindraco 02-18-05, 09:04 AM	"The sole balancing factor behind Antimagic Field's complete, arbitrary, and virtually uncounterable supression of all magic within its confines is the fact that it will be employed by a being whose primary capabilities involve the use of magic, and as such will be crippled subtancially by it's use. Allowing a character whose abilities are only mildly mitigated by antimagic by comparison to the mage, to use an antimagic field item, would be obsurdly imbalancing (along with many of the non-core rules abuses of Antimagic in conjuction with the ability to bypass it.) Arguing that a Fighter should be able to use an Antimagic Amulet because "they get some bonuses from items too" is like arguing that a Wizard should be able to have a feat with melee-based prereqs that grants them Damage Reduction 100/- in exhange for the limitation that they cannot engage in the attack or full attack actions in combat." For what it's worth..... a level 18 fighter / 1 barbarian / 1 cleric (19 fighter if you take issue with the experience cost) can buy himself a staff of AMF, fire it off about two hours before the fight starts, put the staff away, then spend the entire fight wrapped in a cozy AMF field. By the way, he bought one made by a wizard, in case he's on a budget. Wondrous items can get hairy, but potions, scrolls, wands, and staves have rigorous pricing algorithms that work no matter the spell. Whether this is balanced or not is up to you, but it's core.
The Simbul 02-18-05, 11:59 AM	No potion or wand can hold Antimagic Field, and no staff in the core rules has the spell. Therefore there is a precedent not to allow antimagic items to be created that can be easily useable by non-spellcasting classes. The only core rules magic item that creates an antimagic field is a scroll, which requires a minimum DC 31 UMD check, and an additional check assuming you dont have the requisite ability score (I dont imagine too many warriors with the standard ability array have invested a 16 in a mental ability stat).
skywyze 02-18-05, 12:10 PM	Additional question: Could you use that feat that allows you to shape your fireballs etc. to shape your antimagic field, and thus have it not affect you, but affect everyone around you?
robitusinz 02-18-05, 05:43 PM	Heh, the only reason you don't see Anti-magic items in the DMG is because no sane Wizard would sell them. Fighter: "Hi, Delbert the Mage? Yeah, can you whip up a ring of Anti-magic for me?" Delbert: *cha-ching!* "Sure, it's..uh...about 300,000 gold." Fighter: "Oh yeah, here ya go...it's right here on the table, all 300,000." ::Delbert goes off for a year...:: Delbert: "Hey dude, made that ring, here you go." Fighter: "Awesome!" ::Slips it on. Stabs Delbert. Takes back his coinage.:: "Wow, cheaply priced too. See ya, bro." Delbert: ::dies::
Kyuketsukiouji 02-18-05, 07:27 PM	If your entire strategy to fight things is based on AMF, you deserve to be killed by a wizard with Fly, a ring of Telekinesis, and a big rock. Anyone have the starts on that Bulwark of Antimagic from the Draconomicon?
RaspK FOG 02-18-05, 07:47 PM	Actually, you have one of two options: either make an item that affects you by generating an Antimagic Field spell effect, which of course is not negated because the spell affects you (!), or make an item that affects itself by generating an Antimagic Aura spell effect, which of course is not negated because the spell cannot affect itself! Nevertheless, creating an item that would produce a constant antimagic are effect would be of an artifact level (I have made such an artifact [cold iron ring] under the name "The Ring of Eldritch Disruption").
Glitch001 02-18-05, 10:05 PM	There is, in Underdark, a Torc of Antimagic... allows the user to create an anti-magic field 1/day... costs 25K.