Can you Power Attack with CDG? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you Power Attack with CDG? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
02-13-07, 08:23 PM You can't really miss with a Coup de Grace, so can you apply Power Attack to it?
Zherog
02-13-07, 08:37 PM Yes. Especially good when using one of those X4 crit weapons.
Loki5654
02-13-07, 08:49 PM No.

Power Attack only applies to attack rolls:
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.
Coup de grace does not involve an attack roll:
You automatically hit and score a critical hit.
No attack roll, no Power Attack.

Sorry.
fatal error
02-13-07, 09:12 PM Can a character use Power Attack to deal extra damage while making a coup de grace? A coup de grace doesn't require an attack roll, but the text doesn't specify one way or the other.

Power Attack allows a character to subtract some desired amount from all her attack rolls in a round and add it to all her damage rolls. Nowhere does it specify that the character must actually make an attack roll to gain this benefit -- automatically hitting the target does not invalidate the Power Attack. Since a character deals maximum damage with a coup de grace and can use it only against a helpless target, I see no reason that she couldn't use Power Attack. (Indeed, it seems likely that headsmen do exactly that for executions.) Yes, this ruling makes a coup de grace more dangerous, but unusual peril is the harsh reality of being helpless before foes.

Bullet Points is a D20 Modern Q&A, similar to The Sage. Since D20 Modern is the exact same as D&D on the matter of Power Attack and Coup de Grace, I think this is just as good as a D&D based answer.
savant_warlord13
02-13-07, 09:15 PM No.

Power Attack only applies to attack rolls:

Coup de grace does not involve an attack roll:

No attack roll, no Power Attack.

Sorry.

No. Power attack only penalizes attack rolls. A damage roll is still made, power attack still applies.
Loki5654
02-13-07, 09:18 PM No. Power attack only penalizes attack rolls. A damage roll is still made, power attack still applies.Read Power Attack again.

If there is no attack roll to subtract from, you have no points to add to damage.
savant_warlord13
02-13-07, 09:27 PM That is like saying you have to make attacks every round you use Combat Expertise to get the AC bonus
FrostHammer
02-13-07, 09:43 PM You can always swing at aair to get the bonus, saying you're searching for invisible creatures.
Kradlo
02-13-07, 10:43 PM You can't really miss with a Coup de Grace, so can you apply Power Attack to it?

I'd certainly say yes, you can. If you can Power Attack a moving opponent, it's child's play to do it to one that's helpless.

You're still limited to your Base Attack Bonus, but that's the only limiting factor.

Being helpless is no fun.
Potato Weasel
02-13-07, 10:54 PM Yes, you can. Otherwise you can only power attack and coup de grace with thrown weapons via a brutal throw build, and that'd just be silly.
Aryxbez
02-13-07, 10:59 PM Also technically you still make an attack roll, it just auto
hits
draconic_swine
02-13-07, 11:26 PM That is like saying you have to make attacks every round you use Combat Expertise to get the AC bonus

Actually, you do need to attack to benefit from Combat Expertise. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise):

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class.

Loki5654, I can see where you're going with this, but I agree with the others that you can power attack on a coup de grace. You take a penalty to melee attack rolls, yes, but it also adds a damage bonus to all melee damage rolls. As odd a situation as it is, when power attacking on a coup de grace, you do have a penalty to melee attack rolls - it just so happens that you don't need to make an attack roll.
runestar
02-13-07, 11:37 PM Yes, you can.
Which is why it is not a bad idea to carry around a spare scythe to CDG with. *4 crit multiplier is just nasty when a 2-handed weapon is combined with power attack...:)

In a way, I see the CDG rules as automatically rolling a natural 20, thus resulting in a sure-hit. Since a 20 is a natural hit, there is no point telling you to roll a die and treating it as an automatic 20, so they just skimped over that part.

So there's your die roll.:)
FrostHammer
02-15-07, 12:33 PM So there is no concensus on this? Has there been a FAQ ruling on this?
ScipioX
02-15-07, 12:42 PM 8 yeses and a FAQ answer from d20 modern vs. 1 no certainly seems pretty close to a consensus to me.

I'll toss in a yes power attack works with CDG to make it 9 + a faq to 1 lone dissenter.
pres_man
02-15-07, 12:48 PM Power attack applies to all attack rolls and all damage rolls for the round, all of them. That means even if you don't make a single attack roll in the normal turn, if you have an AoO, power attack still applies to it.

Now Power Attack does not take your attack bonus and put it on your damage bonus. Instead you decide the amount you are willing to adjust both of these, and both are effected. In mathematical terms:

z = amount of adjustment for power attack < bab

x(z) = melee attack roll - z

y(z) = melee damage roll + 0, if light weapon (not counting unarmed strike or natural attacks)
y(z) = melee damage roll + z, if one-handed weapon in one hand (or unarmedstrike or natural attacks)
y(z) = melee damage roll + 2z, if using a one-handed weapon or two-handed weapon in two hands.

Since the bonus and penalty apply for the entire round and not for individual attacks, yes you can combine power attack and coup de grace. In fact that is probably how executions are done (thankfully).
WinDReiN
02-15-07, 12:55 PM As Runestar said, it's a automatic hit and a critical one. So you can substract from a natural 20 as much as your bab allows...
Tyler Do'Urden
02-15-07, 01:24 PM If there is no attack roll to subtract from...Sure there is. It's just assumed to be a 20.
Loki5654
02-15-07, 01:36 PM Sure there is. It's just assumed to be a 20.If they had meant "you are considered to have rolled a natural 20 on your attack roll" they would have said that. They said "automatically hit" which means that no roll is needed. No roll, no power attack.

Also, by saying "assumed" you've passed out of the world of RAW and into the nebulous world of RAI.
jaelis
02-15-07, 01:57 PM If they had meant "you are considered to have rolled a natural 20 on your attack roll" they would have said that. They said "automatically hit" which means that no roll is needed. No roll, no power attack.

Where in the feat do you get this from? It says you subtract a number from all attack rolls. Check. So if you do make any attack rolls, you take a penalty.

Then it says you add a number to damage rolls. So if you roll any damage (with a melee weapon), add the bonus to it.

You're putting a connection between those things that isn't there. If you get to roll damage without rolling an attack, you get to add the bonus. If you roll an attack without damage (say the touch attack to start a trip), then you must apply the penalty.

That's all there is to it.
MerlintheTuna
02-15-07, 02:08 PM If they had meant "you are considered to have rolled a natural 20 on your attack roll" they would have said that. They said "automatically hit" which means that no roll is needed. No roll, no power attack.

Also, by saying "assumed" you've passed out of the world of RAW and into the nebulous world of RAI.When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.CDG specifically mentions you've gotten a Critical Hit. How do you get a Critical Hit? By the rules, you roll a 20 on an attack roll and confirm it. That's what the CDG gives you, thus the attack roll is, in fact, assumed.

Besides, even if you say you can't Power Attack on a CDG, players will just make a full attack at the helpless guy instead messing him up about as badly. You're not really changing anything by not allowing PA on a CDG except allowing for an absolutely idiotic moment when a player has to say "It turns out my third attack missed the paralyzed guy."
Merestil Haye
02-15-07, 02:09 PM I'm not entirely happy with the ide, because of the type of action needed to use Power Attack.

It is Not An Action.

Power attack is something decided on when you attack, and if you make no attack you can't decide to Power Attack. I've always treated it as being exactly the same as Combat Expertise in this respect.

(Of course, in my games you still have to roll a d20 to successfully CdG, because as far as I'm concerned the enemy's passive defences are still functioning. Just avoid rolling a 1. That means that I allow PA on a CdG anyway, ironically.)
Vegepygmy
02-15-07, 02:10 PM I agree with Loki that you are not "assumed" to roll a 20.

However, that doesn't mean you can't use Power Attack on a coup de grace. You can, because what Power Attack does is [1] penalize any melee attack rolls you happen to make, and [2] augment any melee damage rolls you happen to make. If you don't make any attack rolls in a round, then obviously there's nothing to be penalized...but that doesn't mean you don't still get the benefit of the feat, which is increased damage on any melee damage rolls you happen to make.

Making a coup de grace obviates the need for a melee attack roll (so the penalty you suffer is moot), but you still roll for damage.
Vegepygmy
02-15-07, 02:16 PM Power attack is something decided on when you attack, and if you make no attack you can't decide to Power Attack. I've always treated it as being exactly the same as Combat Expertise in this respect.It's similar, but there's a difference. To use Combat Expertise, you must "use the attack action or the full attack action in melee" (and even then you don't actually have to make an attack). Power Attack includes no such language. It simply says that you must decide whether to use the feat "before making attack rolls for a round."

If you declare that you are using Power Attack, then make no attack rolls that round, that's okay--you've used the feat before making any attack rolls (and allowed for the possibility of an attack of opportunity).
FrostHammer
02-15-07, 02:17 PM haye: Then how would you handle a player who wants to be able to power attack on this rounds AoOs, but doesn't want to make an attack on his turn? You can only activate PA on your turn.
pres_man
02-15-07, 02:22 PM Just a little bit more info:
hit
Make a successful attack roll.
So if you automatically hit, then you have made an attack roll by the definition of "hit".
Millennium
02-15-07, 02:28 PM I guess I'd allow it, though I'm not sure I see the point. It doesn't really make CdG significantly more dangerous.
Vegepygmy
02-15-07, 02:28 PM So if you automatically hit, then you have made an attack roll by the definition of "hit".This argument (aside from just being silly) ignores the fact that "automatic hit" is also a defined term:

automatic hit: An attack that hits regardless of target AC. Automatic hits occur on an attack roll of natural 20 or as a result of certain spells. A natural 20 attack roll is also a threat--a possible critical hit.
MerlintheTuna
02-15-07, 02:30 PM (Of course, in my games you still have to roll a d20 to successfully CdG, because as far as I'm concerned the enemy's passive defences are still functioning.A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).Helpless is just that -- helpless. There are no passive defenses left if you're making a CdG; he's treated as having a dex of 0, which implies not being able to move at all.
Zherog
02-15-07, 02:32 PM I guess I'd allow it, though I'm not sure I see the point. It doesn't really make CdG significantly more dangerous.

Um, what? The save vs CdG is 10 plus the damage dealt. If you've used Power Attack for 5 points while using a 1-handed weapon with a x2 crit multiplier, you've just increased the DC by 20 points.

Take that same 5 points of Power Attack while wielding a scythe or a heavy pick in two hands. Now you're increasing the save DC by 28.

Yes, it can make a big difference.
MerlintheTuna
02-15-07, 02:32 PM This argument (aside from just being silly) ignores the fact that "automatic hit" is also a defined term:And given that CdGs are not spells, that also implies "taking 20" on the attack roll as a full-round action.

Honestly, we're discussing executing someone. Are you seriously saying that a character isn't allowed to wind up when somebody's head is sitting on a chopping block? This is ridiculous.
jaelis
02-15-07, 02:42 PM Well, as far as the "automatic" 20 thing goes, it does make a difference for a vorpal weapon... if you think a CdG is an automatic 20, then CdGing with a vorpal sword would always result in head lopping.

I could go either way with that in practice, but I don't think it's what the rules say to do.
Vegepygmy
02-15-07, 02:59 PM Helpless is just that -- helpless. There are no passive defenses left if you're making a CdG; he's treated as having a dex of 0, which implies not being able to move at all."Passive defenses" would not require the ability to move; those would be "active defenses."
Vegepygmy
02-15-07, 03:09 PM This argument (aside from just being silly) ignores the fact that "automatic hit" is also a defined term:And given that CdGs are not spells, that also implies "taking 20" on the attack roll as a full-round action.It leaves open that possibility. It also leaves open the possibility that there are other effects that can (like certain spells) cause automatic hits without an attack roll.

Honestly, we're discussing executing someone. Are you seriously saying that a character isn't allowed to wind up when somebody's head is sitting on a chopping block? This is ridiculous.I haven't said anything about being "allowed to wind up." I don't see how that even factors into anything. All I've said is that the rules don't say a person making a coup de grace is "assumed" to have made an attack roll and gotten a natural 20 on it. And they don't. The most that can be said is that it's possible to infer such a thing...and it's not a very reasonable inference, IMO.
kalstrand
02-15-07, 03:28 PM In games I run generally if the PCs have someone that qualifies for a CDG I don't even bother with them rolling damage they just kill the target outright.
OravennasBrother
02-15-07, 04:53 PM No.

Power Attack only applies to attack rolls:

Yes and by using Power Attack on the CDG you also are FORCED to use the VERY SAME PA on any AoO's or cleaves (etc.) which you generate.
Merestil Haye
02-15-07, 09:31 PM haye: Then how would you handle a player who wants to be able to power attack on this rounds AoOs, but doesn't want to make an attack on his turn? You can only activate PA on your turn.They didn't attack, therefore they didn't PA. So they can't do what they want. Either attack or forego use of the feat.

And no, you can't attack the air to claim the benefit of Combat Expertise either.

Helpless is just that -- helpless. There are no passive defenses left if you're making a CdG; he's treated as having a dex of 0, which implies not being able to move at all.The only elements of your AC that you lose when helpless are Dex and Dodge bonuses. Armour, natural armour, shield, deflection, sacred|profane, luck, insight - all these bonuses to AC (and any others I may not have mentioned) still apply.

With my houserule, making a CDG reduces the chance of missing to 5% - roll a 1 and you missed, anything else and the CdG is delivered.
FrostHammer
02-15-07, 09:33 PM I'd rule you can. You're spending a standard action to adopt a stance that is more defensive. You took a feat for it...it might as wlel be useful.
OravennasBrother
02-16-07, 04:34 PM From the SRD on POwer Attack
"Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn."

IF you don't have to make an attack roll then it is pretty easy to see that you can easily make the choice (how much to Power ttack) before you make attack rolls.
Vedic Cold
02-16-07, 05:46 PM Yes, the PA bonus to damage would apply to the CdG damage roll, and that same penalty would then be applied to any attack rolls the character makes before his next turn. As others have stated, the feat applies a penalty to attack rolls and a bonus to damage rolls. The fact that a CdG does not require an attack roll is moot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 02-13-07, 08:23 PM	You can't really miss with a Coup de Grace, so can you apply Power Attack to it?
Zherog 02-13-07, 08:37 PM	Yes. Especially good when using one of those X4 crit weapons.
Loki5654 02-13-07, 08:49 PM	No. Power Attack only applies to attack rolls: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. Coup de grace does not involve an attack roll: You automatically hit and score a critical hit. No attack roll, no Power Attack. Sorry.
fatal error 02-13-07, 09:12 PM	Can a character use Power Attack to deal extra damage while making a coup de grace? A coup de grace doesn't require an attack roll, but the text doesn't specify one way or the other. Power Attack allows a character to subtract some desired amount from all her attack rolls in a round and add it to all her damage rolls. Nowhere does it specify that the character must actually make an attack roll to gain this benefit -- automatically hitting the target does not invalidate the Power Attack. Since a character deals maximum damage with a coup de grace and can use it only against a helpless target, I see no reason that she couldn't use Power Attack. (Indeed, it seems likely that headsmen do exactly that for executions.) Yes, this ruling makes a coup de grace more dangerous, but unusual peril is the harsh reality of being helpless before foes. Bullet Points is a D20 Modern Q&A, similar to The Sage. Since D20 Modern is the exact same as D&D on the matter of Power Attack and Coup de Grace, I think this is just as good as a D&D based answer.
savant_warlord13 02-13-07, 09:15 PM	No. Power Attack only applies to attack rolls: Coup de grace does not involve an attack roll: No attack roll, no Power Attack. Sorry. No. Power attack only penalizes attack rolls. A damage roll is still made, power attack still applies.
Loki5654 02-13-07, 09:18 PM	No. Power attack only penalizes attack rolls. A damage roll is still made, power attack still applies.Read Power Attack again. If there is no attack roll to subtract from, you have no points to add to damage.
savant_warlord13 02-13-07, 09:27 PM	That is like saying you have to make attacks every round you use Combat Expertise to get the AC bonus
FrostHammer 02-13-07, 09:43 PM	You can always swing at aair to get the bonus, saying you're searching for invisible creatures.
Kradlo 02-13-07, 10:43 PM	You can't really miss with a Coup de Grace, so can you apply Power Attack to it? I'd certainly say yes, you can. If you can Power Attack a moving opponent, it's child's play to do it to one that's helpless. You're still limited to your Base Attack Bonus, but that's the only limiting factor. Being helpless is no fun.
Potato Weasel 02-13-07, 10:54 PM	Yes, you can. Otherwise you can only power attack and coup de grace with thrown weapons via a brutal throw build, and that'd just be silly.
Aryxbez 02-13-07, 10:59 PM	Also technically you still make an attack roll, it just auto hits
draconic_swine 02-13-07, 11:26 PM	That is like saying you have to make attacks every round you use Combat Expertise to get the AC bonus Actually, you do need to attack to benefit from Combat Expertise. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise): When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. Loki5654, I can see where you're going with this, but I agree with the others that you can power attack on a coup de grace. You take a penalty to melee attack rolls, yes, but it also adds a damage bonus to all melee damage rolls. As odd a situation as it is, when power attacking on a coup de grace, you do have a penalty to melee attack rolls - it just so happens that you don't need to make an attack roll.
runestar 02-13-07, 11:37 PM	Yes, you can. Which is why it is not a bad idea to carry around a spare scythe to CDG with. *4 crit multiplier is just nasty when a 2-handed weapon is combined with power attack...:) In a way, I see the CDG rules as automatically rolling a natural 20, thus resulting in a sure-hit. Since a 20 is a natural hit, there is no point telling you to roll a die and treating it as an automatic 20, so they just skimped over that part. So there's your die roll.:)
FrostHammer 02-15-07, 12:33 PM	So there is no concensus on this? Has there been a FAQ ruling on this?
ScipioX 02-15-07, 12:42 PM	8 yeses and a FAQ answer from d20 modern vs. 1 no certainly seems pretty close to a consensus to me. I'll toss in a yes power attack works with CDG to make it 9 + a faq to 1 lone dissenter.
pres_man 02-15-07, 12:48 PM	Power attack applies to all attack rolls and all damage rolls for the round, all of them. That means even if you don't make a single attack roll in the normal turn, if you have an AoO, power attack still applies to it. Now Power Attack does not take your attack bonus and put it on your damage bonus. Instead you decide the amount you are willing to adjust both of these, and both are effected. In mathematical terms: z = amount of adjustment for power attack < bab x(z) = melee attack roll - z y(z) = melee damage roll + 0, if light weapon (not counting unarmed strike or natural attacks) y(z) = melee damage roll + z, if one-handed weapon in one hand (or unarmedstrike or natural attacks) y(z) = melee damage roll + 2z, if using a one-handed weapon or two-handed weapon in two hands. Since the bonus and penalty apply for the entire round and not for individual attacks, yes you can combine power attack and coup de grace. In fact that is probably how executions are done (thankfully).
WinDReiN 02-15-07, 12:55 PM	As Runestar said, it's a automatic hit and a critical one. So you can substract from a natural 20 as much as your bab allows...
Tyler Do'Urden 02-15-07, 01:24 PM	If there is no attack roll to subtract from...Sure there is. It's just assumed to be a 20.
Loki5654 02-15-07, 01:36 PM	Sure there is. It's just assumed to be a 20.If they had meant "you are considered to have rolled a natural 20 on your attack roll" they would have said that. They said "automatically hit" which means that no roll is needed. No roll, no power attack. Also, by saying "assumed" you've passed out of the world of RAW and into the nebulous world of RAI.
jaelis 02-15-07, 01:57 PM	If they had meant "you are considered to have rolled a natural 20 on your attack roll" they would have said that. They said "automatically hit" which means that no roll is needed. No roll, no power attack. Where in the feat do you get this from? It says you subtract a number from all attack rolls. Check. So if you do make any attack rolls, you take a penalty. Then it says you add a number to damage rolls. So if you roll any damage (with a melee weapon), add the bonus to it. You're putting a connection between those things that isn't there. If you get to roll damage without rolling an attack, you get to add the bonus. If you roll an attack without damage (say the touch attack to start a trip), then you must apply the penalty. That's all there is to it.
MerlintheTuna 02-15-07, 02:08 PM	If they had meant "you are considered to have rolled a natural 20 on your attack roll" they would have said that. They said "automatically hit" which means that no roll is needed. No roll, no power attack. Also, by saying "assumed" you've passed out of the world of RAW and into the nebulous world of RAI.When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.CDG specifically mentions you've gotten a Critical Hit. How do you get a Critical Hit? By the rules, you roll a 20 on an attack roll and confirm it. That's what the CDG gives you, thus the attack roll is, in fact, assumed. Besides, even if you say you can't Power Attack on a CDG, players will just make a full attack at the helpless guy instead messing him up about as badly. You're not really changing anything by not allowing PA on a CDG except allowing for an absolutely idiotic moment when a player has to say "It turns out my third attack missed the paralyzed guy."
Merestil Haye 02-15-07, 02:09 PM	I'm not entirely happy with the ide, because of the type of action needed to use Power Attack. It is Not An Action. Power attack is something decided on when you attack, and if you make no attack you can't decide to Power Attack. I've always treated it as being exactly the same as Combat Expertise in this respect. (Of course, in my games you still have to roll a d20 to successfully CdG, because as far as I'm concerned the enemy's passive defences are still functioning. Just avoid rolling a 1. That means that I allow PA on a CdG anyway, ironically.)
Vegepygmy 02-15-07, 02:10 PM	I agree with Loki that you are not "assumed" to roll a 20. However, that doesn't mean you can't use Power Attack on a coup de grace. You can, because what Power Attack does is [1] penalize any melee attack rolls you happen to make, and [2] augment any melee damage rolls you happen to make. If you don't make any attack rolls in a round, then obviously there's nothing to be penalized...but that doesn't mean you don't still get the benefit of the feat, which is increased damage on any melee damage rolls you happen to make. Making a coup de grace obviates the need for a melee attack roll (so the penalty you suffer is moot), but you still roll for damage.
Vegepygmy 02-15-07, 02:16 PM	Power attack is something decided on when you attack, and if you make no attack you can't decide to Power Attack. I've always treated it as being exactly the same as Combat Expertise in this respect.It's similar, but there's a difference. To use Combat Expertise, you must "use the attack action or the full attack action in melee" (and even then you don't actually have to make an attack). Power Attack includes no such language. It simply says that you must decide whether to use the feat "before making attack rolls for a round." If you declare that you are using Power Attack, then make no attack rolls that round, that's okay--you've used the feat before making any attack rolls (and allowed for the possibility of an attack of opportunity).
FrostHammer 02-15-07, 02:17 PM	haye: Then how would you handle a player who wants to be able to power attack on this rounds AoOs, but doesn't want to make an attack on his turn? You can only activate PA on your turn.
pres_man 02-15-07, 02:22 PM	Just a little bit more info: hit Make a successful attack roll. So if you automatically hit, then you have made an attack roll by the definition of "hit".
Millennium 02-15-07, 02:28 PM	I guess I'd allow it, though I'm not sure I see the point. It doesn't really make CdG significantly more dangerous.
Vegepygmy 02-15-07, 02:28 PM	So if you automatically hit, then you have made an attack roll by the definition of "hit".This argument (aside from just being silly) ignores the fact that "automatic hit" is also a defined term: automatic hit: An attack that hits regardless of target AC. Automatic hits occur on an attack roll of natural 20 or as a result of certain spells. A natural 20 attack roll is also a threat--a possible critical hit.
MerlintheTuna 02-15-07, 02:30 PM	(Of course, in my games you still have to roll a d20 to successfully CdG, because as far as I'm concerned the enemy's passive defences are still functioning.A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).Helpless is just that -- helpless. There are no passive defenses left if you're making a CdG; he's treated as having a dex of 0, which implies not being able to move at all.
Zherog 02-15-07, 02:32 PM	I guess I'd allow it, though I'm not sure I see the point. It doesn't really make CdG significantly more dangerous. Um, what? The save vs CdG is 10 plus the damage dealt. If you've used Power Attack for 5 points while using a 1-handed weapon with a x2 crit multiplier, you've just increased the DC by 20 points. Take that same 5 points of Power Attack while wielding a scythe or a heavy pick in two hands. Now you're increasing the save DC by 28. Yes, it can make a big difference.
MerlintheTuna 02-15-07, 02:32 PM	This argument (aside from just being silly) ignores the fact that "automatic hit" is also a defined term:And given that CdGs are not spells, that also implies "taking 20" on the attack roll as a full-round action. Honestly, we're discussing executing someone. Are you seriously saying that a character isn't allowed to wind up when somebody's head is sitting on a chopping block? This is ridiculous.
jaelis 02-15-07, 02:42 PM	Well, as far as the "automatic" 20 thing goes, it does make a difference for a vorpal weapon... if you think a CdG is an automatic 20, then CdGing with a vorpal sword would always result in head lopping. I could go either way with that in practice, but I don't think it's what the rules say to do.
Vegepygmy 02-15-07, 02:59 PM	Helpless is just that -- helpless. There are no passive defenses left if you're making a CdG; he's treated as having a dex of 0, which implies not being able to move at all."Passive defenses" would not require the ability to move; those would be "active defenses."
Vegepygmy 02-15-07, 03:09 PM	This argument (aside from just being silly) ignores the fact that "automatic hit" is also a defined term:And given that CdGs are not spells, that also implies "taking 20" on the attack roll as a full-round action.It leaves open that possibility. It also leaves open the possibility that there are other effects that can (like certain spells) cause automatic hits without an attack roll. Honestly, we're discussing executing someone. Are you seriously saying that a character isn't allowed to wind up when somebody's head is sitting on a chopping block? This is ridiculous.I haven't said anything about being "allowed to wind up." I don't see how that even factors into anything. All I've said is that the rules don't say a person making a coup de grace is "assumed" to have made an attack roll and gotten a natural 20 on it. And they don't. The most that can be said is that it's possible to infer such a thing...and it's not a very reasonable inference, IMO.
kalstrand 02-15-07, 03:28 PM	In games I run generally if the PCs have someone that qualifies for a CDG I don't even bother with them rolling damage they just kill the target outright.
OravennasBrother 02-15-07, 04:53 PM	No. Power Attack only applies to attack rolls: Yes and by using Power Attack on the CDG you also are FORCED to use the VERY SAME PA on any AoO's or cleaves (etc.) which you generate.
Merestil Haye 02-15-07, 09:31 PM	haye: Then how would you handle a player who wants to be able to power attack on this rounds AoOs, but doesn't want to make an attack on his turn? You can only activate PA on your turn.They didn't attack, therefore they didn't PA. So they can't do what they want. Either attack or forego use of the feat. And no, you can't attack the air to claim the benefit of Combat Expertise either. Helpless is just that -- helpless. There are no passive defenses left if you're making a CdG; he's treated as having a dex of 0, which implies not being able to move at all.The only elements of your AC that you lose when helpless are Dex and Dodge bonuses. Armour, natural armour, shield, deflection, sacred\|profane, luck, insight - all these bonuses to AC (and any others I may not have mentioned) still apply. With my houserule, making a CDG reduces the chance of missing to 5% - roll a 1 and you missed, anything else and the CdG is delivered.
FrostHammer 02-15-07, 09:33 PM	I'd rule you can. You're spending a standard action to adopt a stance that is more defensive. You took a feat for it...it might as wlel be useful.
OravennasBrother 02-16-07, 04:34 PM	From the SRD on POwer Attack "Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn." IF you don't have to make an attack roll then it is pretty easy to see that you can easily make the choice (how much to Power ttack) before you make attack rolls.
Vedic Cold 02-16-07, 05:46 PM	Yes, the PA bonus to damage would apply to the CdG damage roll, and that same penalty would then be applied to any attack rolls the character makes before his next turn. As others have stated, the feat applies a penalty to attack rolls and a bonus to damage rolls. The fact that a CdG does not require an attack roll is moot.