Can you wear a cold weather outfit with armor? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you wear a cold weather outfit with armor? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bigdndfan
11-10-04, 01:58 PM Can you? Or does it have to be one or the other?

How about this, wearing chain shirt with cold weather outfit.

Chain shirt has a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath the chain mesh that covers your torso.

So you could wear the linen shirt of the cold weather outfit under the chain and than wear the rest (wool coat, wool cap, heavy cloak, thich pants and boot) over it.

Or how about fur clothes from Frostburn?

Would you still get a level 1 protection from cold if you were wearing your light metal armor underneath the furs?
Vahenir
11-10-04, 02:36 PM You can theoretically wear anything under your armour which does not itself provide an armour bonus.

I don't have Frostburn, so I can't speak for anything from that supplement.

But in any event, just about any type of clothing is wearable under armour. This is both realistic, and not against any rule I have ever heard of, and I've read the PH and DMG many times....

So wear whatever you want.

And just for your peace of mind, the backing of mail armour is actually -part- of the armour, so you don't wear the pieces separately (i.e. you do not usually put on the padding, then the armour).
bigdndfan
11-10-04, 04:35 PM Thanks for your opinion. I should clarify could you still receive the benefits of a cold weather outfit while wearing a chain shirt.

Any other thoughts?
Melpomene
11-10-04, 04:46 PM Heavy armours, especially plate, are dam(darn) hot, and make suitable cold-weather gear independant of outside factors.
Fixxxer
11-10-04, 05:04 PM Heavy armours, especially plate, are dam(darn) hot, and make suitable cold-weather gear independant of outside factors.

I have to wonder just how hot a suit of plate would be in the middle of an ice field. I like to think that the cold metal that close to your skin would be fairly uncomfortable.
NightScreamer20
11-10-04, 05:08 PM Yes but All platemail is lined with padding and usually chainmail above that, so against your skin is about 1 inch of wool and cotton...mmm cozy.
bigdndfan
11-10-04, 05:27 PM Yes but All platemail is lined with padding and usually chainmail above that, so against your skin is about 1 inch of wool and cotton...mmm cozy.

Sounds it, but if you are in severe cold or extreme cold (0 to -40 below) even the inch of wool might become cold. Don't you think?

It's a judgement call

Any other judgements, in particular about chain shirt?
Vahenir
11-10-04, 11:52 PM 1. Yes, you'd still gain the benefits of cold weather gear while wearing armour.

2. Wearing warm clothes IS necessary if it's cold outside - even if you're wearing armour. You need an extra two or three layers of cloth to keep your body heat -in- long enough to insulate your armour. Without that, your armour is just going to freeze, which will, in turn, freeze you. On the flip side, if you are in extremely hot weather, expect to sweat to death in your armour within a few hours.

3. Plate-mail does not exist. There is no such thing. You cannot make plate out of mail or mail out of plates. Plate-and-mail or mail-and-plate (plus a bunch of other terms) are the appropriate way to describe armour designed with plates covering certain portions of the body over a mail harness.
Agent Rasp
11-11-04, 12:36 AM Alright, after reading that last reply, who else here just had a vision of a man wearing plate armor made entirely out of the contents of a postbox?

Anybody?

Anybody? :D
Beldaeg
11-11-04, 12:53 AM Alright, after reading that last reply, who else here just had a vision of a man wearing plate armor made entirely out of the contents of a postbox?

Anybody?

Anybody? :D:rolleyes:

I'd like to buy a groan, Pat.
Naeron
11-11-04, 06:49 AM 3. Plate-mail does not exist. There is no such thing. You cannot make plate out of mail or mail out of plates. Plate-and-mail or mail-and-plate (plus a bunch of other terms) are the appropriate way to describe armour designed with plates covering certain portions of the body over a mail harness.

You might want to ask the shogunate period japanese about that. Making Mail out of plates joined together by rings (and chainmail where plates were used to strengthen the piece) was certainly something that was done. But anyway D&D Platemail means plate and mail armour.
Watchman
11-11-04, 08:49 AM That Shogunate thingamabob would be termed mail-and-plate or composite armor. Though AFAIK they went for lamellar and later laminate ("banded") cuirasses and protected their limbs with ringmail (ie. mail or metal rings sewn on a backing) reinforced with small plates here and there...

Be that as it may, the quilted padding worn under all metal armor tended to be several centimeters thick so it alone ought to act as a halfway decent winter wear - but on the other hand metal armor *does* get really cold really fast, which is a little problematic.

You'd think the problem was less pronounced if the armor is close-fitting enough to allow for a layer or two of furs or whatever be worn over it to insulate it from the cold, though.
deathmaster35
11-11-04, 08:58 AM Heavy armours, especially plate, are dam(darn) hot, and make suitable cold-weather gear independant of outside factors.
In warm weather, yes. In cold weather the wearer would still have to wear suitable cold weather garb. Rember that iron has a low specific heat, so would sap the heat out of you quickly.
Watchman
11-11-04, 09:09 AM Most metals, in any case all the ones people use for weapons and armor, conduct heat really well. Heavy armor is in action hot mostly thanks to limited ventilation, but in cold air the metal will quite cheerfully try to transmit your body heat into the surrounding air...

Put some water in a closed metal container on a cold day to see how well it retains warmth.
Naeron
11-11-04, 09:40 AM That Shogunate thingamabob would be termed mail-and-plate or composite armor. Though AFAIK they went for lamellar and later laminate ("banded") cuirasses and protected their limbs with ringmail (ie. mail or metal rings sewn on a backing) reinforced with small plates here and there...

Be that as it may, the quilted padding worn under all metal armor tended to be several centimeters thick so it alone ought to act as a halfway decent winter wear - but on the other hand metal armor *does* get really cold really fast, which is a little problematic.

You'd think the problem was less pronounced if the armor is close-fitting enough to allow for a layer or two of furs or whatever be worn over it to insulate it from the cold, though.

I think I was thinking of slighlty later stuff - the plates added to so gusari for certain body areas which was square plates with 1 flat link between each plate or asa no ha gusari with the hexagonal plates with 2 or 3 flat links between each plate.

Its certainly a type of mail that is made out of plates.
WhiteHarness
11-11-04, 09:43 AM I'll vouch for that.

I'm a historical re-enactor who owns and regularly wears a "white harness", that is, a full suit of plate (thus the name...).

http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/ArmorbyRalph%20045.jpg

http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/ArmorbyRalph%20046.jpg

http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/July4parade%20002.jpg

In cold weather, it's fairly warm *if* you are performing heavy physical activity. But as soon as you slow down, you'll get cold quickly. Metal doesn't keep you warm, and no padding worn under plate armour approached an inch in thickness. Gambesons under mail, maybe, but not the arming jacket under a suit of plate. I've seen depictions of armoured Swiss soldiers wearing cloaks *over* their plate for warmth, and I suspect that that was what was done: If you're cold, put something on over the armour.
bigdndfan
11-11-04, 04:11 PM Hey as interesting as this discussion might be, any more opinions about my questions??
HomebrewedMonster
11-11-04, 06:02 PM Hey as interesting as this discussion might be, any more opinions about my questions??

I believe that you can wear anytype of outfit under armor, be it light, medium, or heavy. The only one I would question is Full Plate because it is made to fit the person so there might not be extra room to have another inch or two of furs. I would say it could be worn over any light armor and under any medium armor, for heavy maybe a DC 10-15 craft (armor) check to modifiy the armor to have extra room for the cold weather outfit. There are just some ideas for the mechanics of the game.
Stuntman
11-12-04, 02:49 PM From a game mechanics point of view, I would say just let the player wear his cold weather gear and armour without any penalty other than what the armour or cold weather gear incurs (ie., weight). I don't think it benefits the game play if you need to deal with such detail.
Vahenir
11-12-04, 03:04 PM I would say it could be worn over any light armor and under any medium armor, for heavy maybe a DC 10-15 craft (armor) check to modifiy the armor to have extra room for the cold weather outfit. There are just some ideas for the mechanics of the game.

Armour is made to fit over clothes. You don't put armour on your naked body.

As for an inch or two of furs.. that's nothing. Armour like a plate harness is equipped with plenty of buckles - it can fit over even extremely thick padding with little-to-no difficulty.

So in game terms.. .wear whatever the hell you want under your armour as long as it does not also provide an AC bonus.
Aracor
11-12-04, 03:47 PM Hell, technically I would have no problem with you wearing leather armor under your full plate, it just wouldn't give you any more protection. Might be nice if you get screwed by a rust monster, at least you'll have a bit of protection left. But I wouldn't let you have any extra magic properties from your underarmor either.

Heh. Underarmor. :)

~Aracor
Vahenir
11-12-04, 04:12 PM To represent how uncomfortable that would be.. I'd say ACP should stack for wearing multiple kinds of armour.

But that's just me.
bigdndfan
11-12-04, 04:58 PM Thanks for all the replies, so you are saying that even in very cold situations, like negative degree, your opinions are cold weather outsfits, fur clothes could still be effective with light metal armor on?

Remember that after a certain negative temeptures if you wear metal armor without any protection one takes d6 points of non-lethal damage if the save is failed.

So the gear would protect the armor (and the player) for the cold even under these conditions?
Kevlimin Soulaxe
11-12-04, 05:59 PM Doesn't the DM Guide have rules that say armors have penalties for coping with cold and hot temperatures? I'd say that that plus whatever bonus the cold outfit gives works for me. Like full plate gives a -7 on cold-weather saves (guessing on the number), and the cold outfit +5. Wear both and and you only have a -2 penalty.
Tifus Artwin
11-13-04, 02:20 AM Hmmm, Id have to agree with whiteharness, just put something on over the armor. I mean, Fullplate weighs about 60lbs. Thats not going to set to well if you shift its weight by adding something else under it all, but putting a bearskin cloak over it, that would be a diffrent story.
Also, wearing a cold weather outfit under haevy armor wouldnt be to consivable, you would have to be wearing armor made for a person/creature 1 size larger then yourself so that it would all fit, yes, theres straps, but they only loosen so much. Its just easier to wear the heavy clothing outside the armor, and your normal clothing under it.

As to the original question, Id have to rule yes, you can wear light or med armor with no peneltys, heavy armor on the other hand, you will still have to make the checks, and will have a penelty to the save to boot. They didnt wage war in winter for a reason.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigdndfan 11-10-04, 01:58 PM	Can you? Or does it have to be one or the other? How about this, wearing chain shirt with cold weather outfit. Chain shirt has a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath the chain mesh that covers your torso. So you could wear the linen shirt of the cold weather outfit under the chain and than wear the rest (wool coat, wool cap, heavy cloak, thich pants and boot) over it. Or how about fur clothes from Frostburn? Would you still get a level 1 protection from cold if you were wearing your light metal armor underneath the furs?
Vahenir 11-10-04, 02:36 PM	You can theoretically wear anything under your armour which does not itself provide an armour bonus. I don't have Frostburn, so I can't speak for anything from that supplement. But in any event, just about any type of clothing is wearable under armour. This is both realistic, and not against any rule I have ever heard of, and I've read the PH and DMG many times.... So wear whatever you want. And just for your peace of mind, the backing of mail armour is actually -part- of the armour, so you don't wear the pieces separately (i.e. you do not usually put on the padding, then the armour).
bigdndfan 11-10-04, 04:35 PM	Thanks for your opinion. I should clarify could you still receive the benefits of a cold weather outfit while wearing a chain shirt. Any other thoughts?
Melpomene 11-10-04, 04:46 PM	Heavy armours, especially plate, are dam(darn) hot, and make suitable cold-weather gear independant of outside factors.
Fixxxer 11-10-04, 05:04 PM	Heavy armours, especially plate, are dam(darn) hot, and make suitable cold-weather gear independant of outside factors. I have to wonder just how hot a suit of plate would be in the middle of an ice field. I like to think that the cold metal that close to your skin would be fairly uncomfortable.
NightScreamer20 11-10-04, 05:08 PM	Yes but All platemail is lined with padding and usually chainmail above that, so against your skin is about 1 inch of wool and cotton...mmm cozy.
bigdndfan 11-10-04, 05:27 PM	Yes but All platemail is lined with padding and usually chainmail above that, so against your skin is about 1 inch of wool and cotton...mmm cozy. Sounds it, but if you are in severe cold or extreme cold (0 to -40 below) even the inch of wool might become cold. Don't you think? It's a judgement call Any other judgements, in particular about chain shirt?
Vahenir 11-10-04, 11:52 PM	1. Yes, you'd still gain the benefits of cold weather gear while wearing armour. 2. Wearing warm clothes IS necessary if it's cold outside - even if you're wearing armour. You need an extra two or three layers of cloth to keep your body heat -in- long enough to insulate your armour. Without that, your armour is just going to freeze, which will, in turn, freeze you. On the flip side, if you are in extremely hot weather, expect to sweat to death in your armour within a few hours. 3. Plate-mail does not exist. There is no such thing. You cannot make plate out of mail or mail out of plates. Plate-and-mail or mail-and-plate (plus a bunch of other terms) are the appropriate way to describe armour designed with plates covering certain portions of the body over a mail harness.
Agent Rasp 11-11-04, 12:36 AM	Alright, after reading that last reply, who else here just had a vision of a man wearing plate armor made entirely out of the contents of a postbox? Anybody? Anybody? :D
Beldaeg 11-11-04, 12:53 AM	Alright, after reading that last reply, who else here just had a vision of a man wearing plate armor made entirely out of the contents of a postbox? Anybody? Anybody? :D:rolleyes: I'd like to buy a groan, Pat.
Naeron 11-11-04, 06:49 AM	3. Plate-mail does not exist. There is no such thing. You cannot make plate out of mail or mail out of plates. Plate-and-mail or mail-and-plate (plus a bunch of other terms) are the appropriate way to describe armour designed with plates covering certain portions of the body over a mail harness. You might want to ask the shogunate period japanese about that. Making Mail out of plates joined together by rings (and chainmail where plates were used to strengthen the piece) was certainly something that was done. But anyway D&D Platemail means plate and mail armour.
Watchman 11-11-04, 08:49 AM	That Shogunate thingamabob would be termed mail-and-plate or composite armor. Though AFAIK they went for lamellar and later laminate ("banded") cuirasses and protected their limbs with ringmail (ie. mail or metal rings sewn on a backing) reinforced with small plates here and there... Be that as it may, the quilted padding worn under all metal armor tended to be several centimeters thick so it alone ought to act as a halfway decent winter wear - but on the other hand metal armor does get really cold really fast, which is a little problematic. You'd think the problem was less pronounced if the armor is close-fitting enough to allow for a layer or two of furs or whatever be worn over it to insulate it from the cold, though.
deathmaster35 11-11-04, 08:58 AM	Heavy armours, especially plate, are dam(darn) hot, and make suitable cold-weather gear independant of outside factors. In warm weather, yes. In cold weather the wearer would still have to wear suitable cold weather garb. Rember that iron has a low specific heat, so would sap the heat out of you quickly.
Watchman 11-11-04, 09:09 AM	Most metals, in any case all the ones people use for weapons and armor, conduct heat really well. Heavy armor is in action hot mostly thanks to limited ventilation, but in cold air the metal will quite cheerfully try to transmit your body heat into the surrounding air... Put some water in a closed metal container on a cold day to see how well it retains warmth.
Naeron 11-11-04, 09:40 AM	That Shogunate thingamabob would be termed mail-and-plate or composite armor. Though AFAIK they went for lamellar and later laminate ("banded") cuirasses and protected their limbs with ringmail (ie. mail or metal rings sewn on a backing) reinforced with small plates here and there... Be that as it may, the quilted padding worn under all metal armor tended to be several centimeters thick so it alone ought to act as a halfway decent winter wear - but on the other hand metal armor does get really cold really fast, which is a little problematic. You'd think the problem was less pronounced if the armor is close-fitting enough to allow for a layer or two of furs or whatever be worn over it to insulate it from the cold, though. I think I was thinking of slighlty later stuff - the plates added to so gusari for certain body areas which was square plates with 1 flat link between each plate or asa no ha gusari with the hexagonal plates with 2 or 3 flat links between each plate. Its certainly a type of mail that is made out of plates.
WhiteHarness 11-11-04, 09:43 AM	I'll vouch for that. I'm a historical re-enactor who owns and regularly wears a "white harness", that is, a full suit of plate (thus the name...). http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/ArmorbyRalph%20045.jpg http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/ArmorbyRalph%20046.jpg http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/July4parade%20002.jpg In cold weather, it's fairly warm if you are performing heavy physical activity. But as soon as you slow down, you'll get cold quickly. Metal doesn't keep you warm, and no padding worn under plate armour approached an inch in thickness. Gambesons under mail, maybe, but not the arming jacket under a suit of plate. I've seen depictions of armoured Swiss soldiers wearing cloaks over their plate for warmth, and I suspect that that was what was done: If you're cold, put something on over the armour.
bigdndfan 11-11-04, 04:11 PM	Hey as interesting as this discussion might be, any more opinions about my questions??
HomebrewedMonster 11-11-04, 06:02 PM	Hey as interesting as this discussion might be, any more opinions about my questions?? I believe that you can wear anytype of outfit under armor, be it light, medium, or heavy. The only one I would question is Full Plate because it is made to fit the person so there might not be extra room to have another inch or two of furs. I would say it could be worn over any light armor and under any medium armor, for heavy maybe a DC 10-15 craft (armor) check to modifiy the armor to have extra room for the cold weather outfit. There are just some ideas for the mechanics of the game.
Stuntman 11-12-04, 02:49 PM	From a game mechanics point of view, I would say just let the player wear his cold weather gear and armour without any penalty other than what the armour or cold weather gear incurs (ie., weight). I don't think it benefits the game play if you need to deal with such detail.
Vahenir 11-12-04, 03:04 PM	I would say it could be worn over any light armor and under any medium armor, for heavy maybe a DC 10-15 craft (armor) check to modifiy the armor to have extra room for the cold weather outfit. There are just some ideas for the mechanics of the game. Armour is made to fit over clothes. You don't put armour on your naked body. As for an inch or two of furs.. that's nothing. Armour like a plate harness is equipped with plenty of buckles - it can fit over even extremely thick padding with little-to-no difficulty. So in game terms.. .wear whatever the hell you want under your armour as long as it does not also provide an AC bonus.
Aracor 11-12-04, 03:47 PM	Hell, technically I would have no problem with you wearing leather armor under your full plate, it just wouldn't give you any more protection. Might be nice if you get screwed by a rust monster, at least you'll have a bit of protection left. But I wouldn't let you have any extra magic properties from your underarmor either. Heh. Underarmor. :) ~Aracor
Vahenir 11-12-04, 04:12 PM	To represent how uncomfortable that would be.. I'd say ACP should stack for wearing multiple kinds of armour. But that's just me.
bigdndfan 11-12-04, 04:58 PM	Thanks for all the replies, so you are saying that even in very cold situations, like negative degree, your opinions are cold weather outsfits, fur clothes could still be effective with light metal armor on? Remember that after a certain negative temeptures if you wear metal armor without any protection one takes d6 points of non-lethal damage if the save is failed. So the gear would protect the armor (and the player) for the cold even under these conditions?
Kevlimin Soulaxe 11-12-04, 05:59 PM	Doesn't the DM Guide have rules that say armors have penalties for coping with cold and hot temperatures? I'd say that that plus whatever bonus the cold outfit gives works for me. Like full plate gives a -7 on cold-weather saves (guessing on the number), and the cold outfit +5. Wear both and and you only have a -2 penalty.
Tifus Artwin 11-13-04, 02:20 AM	Hmmm, Id have to agree with whiteharness, just put something on over the armor. I mean, Fullplate weighs about 60lbs. Thats not going to set to well if you shift its weight by adding something else under it all, but putting a bearskin cloak over it, that would be a diffrent story. Also, wearing a cold weather outfit under haevy armor wouldnt be to consivable, you would have to be wearing armor made for a person/creature 1 size larger then yourself so that it would all fit, yes, theres straps, but they only loosen so much. Its just easier to wear the heavy clothing outside the armor, and your normal clothing under it. As to the original question, Id have to rule yes, you can wear light or med armor with no peneltys, heavy armor on the other hand, you will still have to make the checks, and will have a penelty to the save to boot. They didnt wage war in winter for a reason.