Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OmniPaul 11-27-05, 02:18 AM	I made a fighter that specializes in shield bashing, but my plans were ruined when I read that shield bashing counted as an off-hand attack and takes a huge penalty to attack rolls. Is it possible to wield a shield as the primary weapon if my fighter doesn't wield anything else (think Captain America)?
Tyler Do'Urden 11-27-05, 02:35 AM	I would say yes, but I think by the RAW you can't. You could always make a feat for it, but it would be tough to make it worth taking.
strngr11 11-27-05, 03:34 AM	i was thinking of making a character that uses shields as their only weapon (two of them), but it would be sooo ineffective with standard rules that you woudl need to make a whole new class to make it possible to work.
Dionon 11-27-05, 03:51 AM	That's an idea.... I think I can whip something up quickly....
Rowan_Whispercloak 11-27-05, 04:03 AM	Yes you can their is nothing in the rules about with hand you have to use the shield with. In a Dragon mag there was an article about specialist fighters one of which is described as using their shield as there primary and wielding a weapon more for parrying.
Dionon 11-27-05, 04:31 AM	Shield Warrior Lv Att Fort Ref Will Special 1 1 +2 +0 +0 Shield Weapon Proficiency, Hurtle Shield 2 2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat 3 3 +3 +1 +1 4 4 +4 +1 +1 Shield Style 5 5 +4 +1 +1 Targeting +1, Hurtle Size Increase 6 6/1 +5 +2 +2 Shield Range Increase I 7 7/2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 8 8/3 +6 +2 +2 Returning Shield 9 9/4 +6 +3 +3 Improved Shield Style 10 10/5 +7 +3 +3 Targeting +2, Hurtle Size Increase 11 11/6/1 +7 +3 +3 12 12/7/2 +8 +4 +4 Shield Range Increase II, Bonus Feat 13 13/8/3 +8 +4 +4 14 14/9/4 +9 +4 +4 Shield Style Perfection 15 15/10/5 +9 +5 +5 Targeting +3, Hurtle Size Increase 16 16/11/6/1 +10 +5 +5 17 17/12/7/2 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat 18 18/13/8/3 +11 +6 +6 Shield Range Increase III 19 19/14/9/4 +11 +6 +6 20 20/15/10/5 +12 +6 +6 Targeting +4, Hurtle Size Increase Hit Dice: d8 Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Tactics), Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Speak Language, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope Skills at First Level (4 + Intelligence Modifier) x4 Skills at each additional level (4 + Intelligence Modifier) Class Features The following are all class features of the Shield Warrior Weapon and Armor Proficiencies. The Shield Warrior is proficient with all simple weapons. The Shield Warrior is proficient in Light, Medium and Heavy armor, and all Shields. Shield Weapon Proficiency: If being used in the dominant hand of a Shield Warrior, a Shield counts as a non offhand weapon. If the shield is in the Off hand, it still counts as an offhanded attack. Hurtle Shield At first level, the Shield Warrior learns that a Shield can make as good a thrown weapon as a melee weapon. From then on the any shield the Shield Warrior picks up (with the exception of Tower Shields) that they have the ability to use with this ability, is considered to have the Throwing special ability. All ranges are 10ft, and the damage for each Shield is as follows Buckler 1d6 Shield, Light Wooden 1d8 Shield, Light Steel 1d10 Shield, Heavy Wooden 2d6 Shield, Heavy Steel 2d8 At first level, the only shield that can be thrown is a Buckler. At each fifth level afterwards (5th, 10th, 15th and 20th) The shield’s size increases to give the Shield Warrior access to throwing a larger shield. At 5th level, the size increases to Light Wooden At 10th level, the size increases to Light Steel At 15th level, the size increases to Heavy Wooden and finally At 20th level, the size increases to Heavy Steel Shields Bonus Feat At 2nd level, and every five levels thereafter, the Shield Warrior gains a bonus feat from the following list Acrobatic, Alertness, Agile, Athletic, Blind Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Endurance, Diehard, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (Shields only), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many-shot, Greater Many-shot, Shot on the Run, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Shield Bash, Toughness, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus Shield Style At fourth level the Shield Warrior picks a style to which they wish to use their Shields. The styles available are Throwing, Melee and Defense If the Shield Warrior picks Throwing, their shields are treated as having a range increment 5 feat longer than they actually do (IE 10 feet becomes 15 feet). They are also considered to deal one point of extra damage. If they choose Melee, their shields are effectively counted as Magic to overcome Damage Reduction. If they choose Defense, their shields are give one and a half times the bonus to AC than they normally do. (minimum +1) Targeting At fifth level, the Shield Warrior becomes so good at throwing his shield, that he gains a targeting bonus equal to one-quarter of his class level rounded down to ranged attacks made with a shield. Shield Range Increase As the Shield Warrior grows in power, so too does his Shield. Each time this ability is gained, first at sixth level, and again every sixth level afterward (twelveth, eighteenth, etc) the effective Range of any shield thrown by the Shield Warrior grows 10 feet. This stacks with the Throwing Shield Style Returning Shield At eighth level, any shield that the Shield warrior throws effectively has the Returning special ability on it. It will return to the thrower one round after the throw is made, and if the thrower has moved in this time, it will fall prone to the ground awaiting pickup. Improved Shield Style At ninth level, the Shield Warrior’s ability with a shield increases. If they chose Throwing as their style at fourth level, they gain an additional +5 feet to their range increment, their shields do an extra point of damage (+2 total) and they are treated as Magic for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction If they chose Melee as their style at Fourth level, any shield wielded by the Shield Warrior gains an enhancement of their alignment. The player must choose one part of their alignment Good, Evil, Law or Chaos. If the player is of True Neutral alignment, he must choose an alignment for the shield to become. This ability only confers the ability to move beyond damage reduction If they chose defense as their style at fourth level, any shield wielded by the Shield Warrior gains the warrior the Light Fortification Ability. Shield Style Perfection At fourteenth level, the Shield Warrior truly becomes a Master of Shields. If they chose Throwing as their style at fourth level, they gain an additional +5 feet to their range increment, their shields do an extra point of damage (+3 total) and they are treated as aligned (as Improved Shield Style Melee’s ability) for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction If they chose Melee as their style at Fourth level, any shield wielded by the Shield Warrior is treated as Adamantine to overcome damage reduction If they chose defense as their style at fourth level, any shield wielded by the Shield Warrior gains the warrior the Moderate Fortification Ability.
The WarOverlord 11-27-05, 04:58 AM	I made a fighter that specializes in shield bashing, but my plans were ruined when I read that shield bashing counted as an off-hand attack and takes a huge penalty to attack rolls. Is it possible to wield a shield as the primary weapon if my fighter doesn't wield anything else (think Captain America)? Well, a way around the "Shield Laws" (among the gazillion things that has made playing D&D a math exam hassle instead of role playing fun) is to invent a new weapon that deflects like a shield when used in defense (As in a relatively flat disk like thing that has a way to grip it on at least one side and is sturdy enough to parry with it's face/back) but edges are sharp or jagged and weighed for slashing,thrusting or even throwing via a cord for a yo-yo effect or air vents that make it fly like a boom-a-rang and can return to skilled thrower. Let's call it a......."Warmonger"
Thorak 11-27-05, 11:39 AM	Yes you can their is nothing in the rules about with hand you have to use the shield with. In a Dragon mag there was an article about specialist fighters one of which is described as using their shield as there primary and wielding a weapon more for parrying. It's always a good idea to actually read the rules in question; "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon." Text is identical for light shields, save that it says "light shield" instead of "heavy shield". There's nothing about which hand you use, but if you shield bash, it's an off-hand attack, by the RAW.
pres_man 11-27-05, 12:20 PM	There's nothing about which hand you use, but if you shield bash, it's an off-hand attack, by the RAW. Not exactly, it is an attack with off-hand weapon, not necessarily an off-hand attack. Yes you can use the shield as your main weapon, but you only get 1/2 Str added in (since it is an off-hand weapon) and you lose the AC unless you take improved shield bash. You can fight with two-shields if you wanted (getting 1/2 Str for each). Even if you have ISB, your AC would only depend on the one that was higher, since shield bonuses overlap.
ShinAkuma2 11-27-05, 12:28 PM	Not exactly, it is an attack with off-hand weapon, not necessarily an off-hand attack. An off-hand weapon, by definition, is in your off-hand. An attack with your off-hand is an off-hand attack. There's no weasling out of that. You can fight with two-shields if you wanted (getting 1/2 Str for each). Even if you have ISB, your AC would only depend on the one that was higher, since shield bonuses stack. You mean they overlap. Stacking and overlapping are not the same thing.
Antioch 11-27-05, 12:28 PM	If you are going to use a shield, and only a shield, I see no reason to penalize a player with an attack penalty and/or Strength reduction.
Dionon 11-27-05, 12:33 PM	I feel so ignored :allalone: :allalone: :allalone: :allalone:
Plothos 11-27-05, 12:45 PM	I feel so ignored Well, I was going to say something, but I don't think you'll like it. :) While I find the concept interesting and balanced (and you obviously put some thought into it), I find a lot of your suggestions mystifying and the whole concept a little silly. Number one. Why oh why can a shield warrior only throw a heavy shield 10 feet as an attack at high level? Anybody could do it as an improvised thrown object, and I can see an ability or feat removing the improvised part, but what's the big difference between heavy steel and light wood (besides strength required) that makes for so many levels of difference? I just don't get that. Number two. A thrown shield that does 2d8 damage? That's twice what a friggin longsword does. This boggles me. (Again, getting this ability at higher levels is balanced, but the concept shudders me.) In general, running around fighting with two shields is a stupid way to do things. Think about it for a while, and then compare it to a guy with a sword and shield. Who would you rather battle? The shields, especially bigger ones, are bulky and awkward and strapped high up the arm, making them incredibly difficult to swing well; and by that I don't mean it would just take more training; I mean no amount of training is going to overcome the physical limitations. In D&D this is modelled by the 1/2 strength bonus rule, even for a primary attack; and to my mind there should be significant to-hit penalties as well. Using a shield to bash an opponent is a desperation move or one that can be made when a certain juicy opportunity arises. It is NOT a way to go around fighting in general. That said, go ahead an play how you like. This is all how it seems to me, and I don't expect anybody to agree.
Zathyr 11-27-05, 01:00 PM	It's always a good idea to actually read the rules in question; "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon." Text is identical for light shields, save that it says "light shield" instead of "heavy shield". There's nothing about which hand you use, but if you shield bash, it's an off-hand attack, by the RAW. Actually, I remember an old argument, that changed the emphasis of that quote to: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon." Now I'm not saying I agree with this, but the logic was that you didn't have to use it as an off-hand weapon, since a shield bash appears with the weapons and follows all the normal rules for weapon attacks unless the text explicitly states otherwise. The text for shield bashes can, admittedly, be interpreted to be describing one possible method of its use. It doesn't say a shield must be used as an off-hand weapon, or "... in which case it is always used as an off-hand weapon." or something that would without a doubt override the normal rules for weapons. Personally I think the authors never thought anyone would want to make a shield bash as a primary attack, and they just didn't think to cover the possibilities when they wrote the rules. I'd have no problem with a GM ruling either way on it, actually.
pres_man 11-27-05, 01:01 PM	An off-hand weapon, by definition, is in your off-hand. An attack with your off-hand is an off-hand attack. There's no weasling out of that. Weasling? Kind of judgemental aren't we? Off hand weapons are usually described as weapons wielded in your off hand giving you 1/2 str bonus, but they don't always have to be in your actual off hand (see armor spikes for example). Off hand attack is usually only used in terms of two-weapon fighting, thus if you are only fighting with a shield, you wouldn't really be talking about off hand attacks, but instead using an off hand weapon. Thus a 6th level fighter would get two attacks with the shield but would only get 1/2 Str. Now the question happens, what if you use a large shield two handed? Do you get 1xStr? You mean they overlap. Stacking and overlapping are not the same thing. Yeah, that's what I meant, brain-fart. I went back and fixed it.
Sluagh 11-27-05, 01:41 PM	In reference to the 20lvl class Dionon posted: The class looks ok, except for what was mentioned above, but I really dislike the idea of this as a base class. Cutting it down to a 5 0r 10 level PrC seems much more rational for a specialized fighting style like this. Unless there were some sort of PrC to use for this, I see no real reason why there shouldn't be an attack penalty for shield fighting. The shield is not, after all, a weapon, but defense. In essence, though there are rules for a shield bash, it is an improvised weapon. Making a PrC for it, however, could slowly convert the shield into a weapon via class features, perhaps first allowing the shield to be used as a standard weapon (no penalty to attack), apply full strength damage, perhaps throw light, then heavy shields with a range of 10', allowing two shield fighting, perhaps, if a 10lvl PrC allow for shield AC bonus stacking for two shield fighting. Improved Shield Bash seems like a natural Prerequisite, perhaps BAB +5, and of course, proficiency with all shields.
Andrew_980 11-27-05, 01:48 PM	In general, running around fighting with two shields is a stupid way to do things. Think about it for a while, and then compare it to a guy with a sword and shield. Who would you rather battle? The shields, especially bigger ones, are bulky and awkward and strapped high up the arm, making them incredibly difficult to swing well; and by that I don't mean it would just take more training; I mean no amount of training is going to overcome the physical limitations. In D&D this is modelled by the 1/2 strength bonus rule, even for a primary attack; and to my mind there should be significant to-hit penalties as well. Using a shield to bash an opponent is a desperation move or one that can be made when a certain juicy opportunity arises. It is NOT a way to go around fighting in general. I fully diagree. Using sheilds on both sides gives the defense to either side(reality thought not game rules) he can bounce into foes with his "denfense sheild and slash with the edge of his "offence" sheild right up close. Immage this guy fighting "whirling dervish style" bouncing back and forth off his adversaries bashing with the side of one sheild and arching the rim into the face with the other. Hell addtumble and picture the guy, tucking in his shields to roll through the enemy, or use charging into the bad guy with both sheilds in a wegde.Mechanicly it is as sound as shield and light mace, but i like to visualize, as above, more than standard "this works better" or "the rules stop you from giving fancy descriptions even if there is no numerical change"
Thorak 11-27-05, 01:53 PM	Not exactly, it is an attack with off-hand weapon, not necessarily an off-hand attack. Yes you can use the shield as your main weapon, but you only get 1/2 Str added in (since it is an off-hand weapon) and you lose the AC unless you take improved shield bash. You also get an unremovable -4 to hit, if all you attack with is an off-hand weapon. See the Glossary entry for "off hand", which is also where you'll find the 1/2 str bonus rule. Yes, this means your attack bonus with a Light shield is actually better if you have TWF and are using something as your primary weapon. There's also the question on whether you can wield two off-hand weapons with TWF, which sounds odd but could work, same with armor spikes or any other "not in the off-hand" off-hand weapon. Actually, I remember an old argument, that changed the emphasis of that quote to: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon." Now I'm not saying I agree with this, but the logic was that you didn't have to use it as an off-hand weapon, since a shield bash appears with the weapons and follows all the normal rules for weapon attacks unless the text explicitly states otherwise. The text for shield bashes can, admittedly, be interpreted to be describing one possible method of its use. It doesn't say a shield must be used as an off-hand weapon, or "... in which case it is always used as an off-hand weapon." or something that would without a doubt override the normal rules for weapons. I disagree. The qualifying phrase "using it as an off-hand weapon", modifies the rest of the sentence, "you can bash an opponent with a heavy shield". It is qualifying all of those instances where you can do so. So, for all of those instances where you can bash someone with a shield, it's an off-hand weapon. All this said, I've actually considered this as a build if I can ever get into a munchkin campaign with ubergear. Sure, you only get one AC bonus. Sure, you can arguably only use the one shield. But I could use the one heavy shield for defense, and stack it with +10 worth of defensive enchantments along with whatever offensive ones add to defense (+5 Defending springs immediately to mind, and the +5 only because it is used by Defending). And load the other light spiked shield with +10 worth of the most offensive shield abilities I can find, completely ignoring things like actual enhancement bonus beyond the +1 necessary, and loading it with +10 worth of decent attack abilities. All told, I should be able to get two +10 weapons, and two +10 defensive items, non-stacking of course, but that's why you use the other sundry abilities to build it up. It's probably not optimal in any way, but it would be amusing.
bondious 11-27-05, 02:08 PM	Personally I think the authors never thought anyone would want to make a shield bash as a primary attack, and they just didn't think to cover the possibilities when they wrote the rules. I'd have no problem with a GM ruling either way on it, actually. This is furthar confounding, to me, in that the designers came up with such feats as: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge and Shield Slam (among possible others). I like the idea of a character fighting with a shield and utilizing these feats, but if he always takes that off-hand penalty and the 1/2 strength then WHY BOTHER? Those penalties pretty much take down a notch whatever benefit you might get out of those feats. Why would I bother having my dwarven fighter perform a Shield Charge if he's only doing 1/2 strength to damage and takes (if I'm not mistaken) a -4 attack penalty? I'm thinking that the designers PROBABLY meant that a shield is "always considered an off-handed weapon when used during a two-weapon fighting attack routine, regardless of the primary weapon's size". Otherwise poor Captain America would have a real hard time in a D&D world. :weep:
A Bigmouth Bard 11-27-05, 03:00 PM	I feel so ignored :clap: :clap: Well I think you have really outdone yourself Dionon. :clap: :clap: Very effective to me. I'll definately have to show this to my players. Though I don't get why you made it a starting class instead of a prestige class. :confused:
Plothos 11-27-05, 09:03 PM	Mechanicly it is as sound as shield and light maceThat's precisely what I'm questioning. Take two guys with equal training in their chosen combat styles, one with a shield and mace and one with two shields. I'd fight the double shield guy LONG before I fought the other. CAN they be used to some effect? Of course, but they're not as good as things people actually use(d) as weapons. If they were, don't you think there'd be some record of a knight in the middle ages who did it? Again, if you want to play this way, go ahead. Doesn't matter to me. But physically, it just doesn't make sense.
Andrew_980 11-27-05, 09:06 PM	Again, if you want to play this way, go ahead. Doesn't matter to me. But physically, it just doesn't make sense Eh, tack it next to monkey grip, double heavy mace and the direflail. None of those are practical, if no suicidal, but no one seems to question them.
Dionon 11-27-05, 10:45 PM	Well, I was going to say something, but I don't think you'll like it. :) While I find the concept interesting and balanced (and you obviously put some thought into it), I find a lot of your suggestions mystifying and the whole concept a little silly. Heh Number one. Why oh why can a shield warrior only throw a heavy shield 10 feet as an attack at high level? Anybody could do it as an improvised thrown object, and I can see an ability or feat removing the improvised part, but what's the big difference between heavy steel and light wood (besides strength required) that makes for so many levels of difference? I just don't get that. What are you talking about? Their range at 20th level is 55 feet if they choose Throwing as their style of choice. If not it's 40 feet. 10 feet is for the first like five levels? Number two. A thrown shield that does 2d8 damage? That's twice what a friggin longsword does. This boggles me. (Again, getting this ability at higher levels is balanced, but the concept shudders me.) Yeah I know 2d8 damage is alot... but yeah what you said lol In general, running around fighting with two shields is a stupid way to do things. Think about it for a while, and then compare it to a guy with a sword and shield. Who would you rather battle? The shields, especially bigger ones, are bulky and awkward and strapped high up the arm, making them incredibly difficult to swing well; and by that I don't mean it would just take more training; I mean no amount of training is going to overcome the physical limitations. In D&D this is modelled by the 1/2 strength bonus rule, even for a primary attack; and to my mind there should be significant to-hit penalties as well. Using a shield to bash an opponent is a desperation move or one that can be made when a certain juicy opportunity arises. It is NOT a way to go around fighting in general. I actually made this to use only one shield... if someone is silly enough to use two, more power to them. That's why there's no Two Shield Style lol. That said, go ahead an play how you like. This is all how it seems to me, and I don't expect anybody to agree. Actually I am glad for the critique, and I thank you for taking the time to read the class I made :D I hope I answered some of your concerns, and that you see this in a new light now :D
Dionon 11-27-05, 10:51 PM	Though I don't get why you made it a starting class instead of a prestige class. :confused: Eh, the guy who started this thread wanted to use Shields from the getgo, so I said what the hell, I mean it's not like he gets any unfair advantage with the shields lol. Well not anything any other class couldnt accomplish with the resources open to them.
zelf_gale 11-28-05, 04:03 AM	As a fighter/ranger/tempest your off hand attack penalties can be decreased to 0 thru the two weapon fighting feat chain, oversized two weapon fighting, and the tempest class abilities.
The WarOverlord 11-28-05, 05:53 AM	I feel so ignored :allalone: :allalone: :allalone: :allalone: Naw, the Stats,feats, and skills for a Shield Warrior is verry impressive but my problem is that a warroir can pick up a Keg cover or tin can cover and do equal damage? Shields wear out and get damage when hit cause that is how they protect the wielder so locigally bashing creatures and objects with a shield is going do cause the same degredation and damage that renders them useless after shatering, splitting, and denting from hitting armor and solid object. The Shield like Weapon was my solution to the problem ....maybe your "Shield Warrior" can use the "Warmonger" as it's specialized weapon?
Dionon 11-28-05, 10:15 AM	Naw, the Stats,feats, and skills for a Shield Warrior is verry impressive but my problem is that a warroir can pick up a Keg cover or tin can cover and do equal damage? Well no, they don't have Improvised Shield Weapon Proficiency. Only Shield Weapon Proficiency, meaning that it has to be an actual shield. If not they take a -4 (granted at 20th level, that's negated by Targeting, but hell, I guess I thought of that and didn't realize it) Shields wear out and get damage when hit cause that is how they protect the wielder so locigally bashing creatures and objects with a shield is going do cause the same degredation and damage that renders them useless after shatering, splitting, and denting from hitting armor and solid object. Good Point... The Shield like Weapon was my solution to the problem ....maybe your "Shield Warrior" can use the "Warmonger" as it's specialized weapon? Hey, if you'd let me, I'd be happy to use your Warmonger. Though it has to loose that YoYo cord.... They don't get returning shield till eigth level, and I think I might want to keep it that way. Hey Wizards Executives! This might be a Class you might want to Publish once it gets tweaked to perfection!
jean-jacques 11-28-05, 10:52 AM	I'd just like to point out the fact that all these cants and it is used as an off hand weappon are all in relation to the fact that most of these sentences are written as if the player in question using the shield bash is using a shield as its meant to be a shield. So to say they are wielding a mace sword etc in the primary hand and a shield as a defensive object in the other. Its meant more as i shield bash someone and then attack with my weapon. So i see it more as its offhand in terms of the shield being used in conjunction with another wepaon which is usually the case in 95% of the time.
Dowanroden 11-28-05, 11:11 AM	If a person is using a shield in their primary hand can you really call it an off-hand attack anymore? I can see applying the penalty if the shield is still in the off-hand but if it's what you're using as your primary weapon then what fool would still hold it in their off-hand? Off-hand weapon Strength penalty makes sense given it's a shield not entirely designed for bashing and bludgeoning, even with a shield spike, so I would conceed that... but just that.
Kord's Boon 11-28-05, 01:27 PM	I personally played a shield fighter in a campaign a few years ago. Ending class makeup: DVR 0, Half-orc, Fighter 6/Barbarian 4/Variant templar of Kord 14 (24) Speaking strictly as balance issue, as long as the DM doesn't allow your shield bonus to apply twice there is no problem with using a shield bash as a normal weapon, or in a TWF configuration as I did. A house rule is appropriate to accommodate it, since it's not technically legal. As to the larger issue of whether or not using a shield as a primary weapon is “realistically” feasible. I say most likely not, your reach is short, the shields a heavy, and it's not balance is such a way to accommodate he motions you need. However this is a fantasy RPG, if I can wield arcane power to summon magic fire out of nothing, then you can use two shield at a -4 penalty each, no harm no foul.