Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sennet 06-04-06, 10:03 AM	Well as the title says, I'm looking for any rules concerning cannons in D&D. The chapter in the DMG concerning "modern" weapons dosn't inlcude any stats for real cannons. What would be a good range for a defensively installed cannon and how much damage should it do either by solid projectiles or by explosive shells? I tried to figure something out by looking at the stats for catapults and trebuchets in "Heroes of Battle", but they are not quite satisfying. AFAIK cannons in the 15th century had effective ranges at around 1 mile depending on the size and the mounting. So if any one of you guys has some rules for cannons, I really'd liek to know them.
lavekkia 06-04-06, 10:17 AM	stormwrack and Unapprochable East handbooks and Dragon 321
Sunrider 06-04-06, 11:11 AM	D&D seems to be a little lacking in the artillery department - I've been trying to put together an elite force modelled around a modern armoured division, but have run into problems trying to set up artillery firebases to provide long-range fire support to front-line forces. Mind you, the troops in the division are higher level than the typical first-level warrior - after all, it's an elite division, consisting largely of mostly battle-hardened veterans or well-trained individuals (modern infantry, at least in first-world countries, are not first-level warriors - training is better than ever before). Typical infantry are around 3rd level, with officers being higher level. Elite infantry are mid-level adventuring parties (no spellcasters, though). Armoured forces are 6th level, with lieutenants being 8th level and captains 10th level. Reconnaissance is provided by everyone, but there are also specialised scouts (generally low-level scouts or rangers). Air support comes in the form of flying machines. Then there's logistics, engineering and medics - experts and golems handle construction work rather effectively. Intelligence, recruitment and covert ops are handled by a separate spy network. Finally, there's artillery - this is the real kicker, since I can't find a way to fire an AoE weapon 30-40km (a short-range missile, using a 5th level scroll of Fireball, 5th level scroll of Fly and 11th level scroll of Find the Path costs 2400gp, has a range of 6000' (around 1.8km) and takes five minutes to get there...). Tanks = cavalry archers. Highly mobile, lots of firepower, but difficult to hide. Infantry = rangers/fighters, armed with mechanical needle guns (treat as light crossbow), specialising in stealth and sniping. They specialise in holding ground, harrassing the enemy and not getting killed (i.e. hiding). If they need heavier firepower, they can call in the tanks or air support. During an offensive, they can protect the tanks by eliminating enemy foot archers (probably the biggest non-magical threat to mounted archers). Scouts = scouts or rangers. They can perform a little sabotage here and there, but their main role is reconnaissance. Currently, they can take down any equivalent force built around a mediaeval military model (heavy infantry, foot archers, heavy cavalry, specialising in field battles) - by using tactics suited to modern warfare rather than engaging in a relatively short, force-on-force field battle (the 'battlefield' tends to be a very large area, similar to modern conflicts), a modern-styled force can win with relatively few casualties. But, without the big guns, it's just not the same... If anyone has ideas on how to make decent artillery from existing material (just mechanics will do - I'll probably modify their description anyway), I'd be delighted. Currently, I can get a heavy trebuchet (range increment 300') with the Distance enchantment to fire 6000' (ammunition, of course, will be charged with Fireball...). I'm looking for fifteen to twenty times the range...
Horatio Hornblower 06-04-06, 11:27 AM	If anyone has ideas on how to make decent artillery from existing material (just mechanics will do - I'll probably modify their description anyway), I'd be delighted. Currently, I can get a heavy trebuchet (range increment 300') with the Distance enchantment to fire 6000' (ammunition, of course, will be charged with Fireball...). I'm looking for fifteen to twenty times the range... You're not going to find it in D&D. 6000' range is awesome (that's 1.8 km)! Why do you need more range? Artillery isn't the answer. You need an airforce. Try skyships or airships dropping bombs.
Sunrider 06-04-06, 12:03 PM	You're not going to find it in D&D. 6000' range is awesome (that's 1.8 km)! Why do you need more range? Artillery isn't the answer. You need an airforce. Try skyships or airships dropping bombs. I have an air force. Flying machines of various sorts, etc. (incidentally, if anyone can think of ways to make flying machines fly faster, I'd like to know - even a dragon flying at 250' per round and making double moves is only going at 91km/h). But, sometimes, air power isn't the answer. Aircraft can be shot down. A mass of 1st level archers using Rapid Shot can put an enormous number of arrows into the air; spread them out a bit and you've created a killing zone for aircraft. If they're hiding in a forest, that's hardly ideal terrain for tanks/mounted archers (finding their location isn't difficult - it's killing them that's the problem). Sure, the infantry could go in and fight them Vietnam-style, but that's hardly ideal if you want to minimise casualties. The infantry could also form a perimeter around them and starve them out, but encircling them in the first place is difficult and, in the time it takes to starve them out, an enemy relief force could arrive. Also, air power takes time to arrive - in a time-critical operation, speed is essential. When an infantry unit is pinned down (using cover, concealment, stealth, firing prone, etc., of course, to minimise casualties), I want indirect fire now, not in fifteen minutes' time. When I have an enemy unit pinned down, but suspect that reinforcements are arriving soon, I want to hit them fast (this is where mortars/short-range fireball-launchers come in). Air power can't provide this. An established, well-protected, long-range firebase can. 6000' range may seem huge (300' range increment, doubled to 600' through the Distance enchantment, firing ten range increments), but a firebase with such short-range weapons can only provide fire support to ten square kilometers. When the theatre of battle is, for argument's sake, 50km by 50km (2500 square kilometers), you're only covering 0.4% of the field of battle.
Horatio Hornblower 06-04-06, 12:41 PM	6000' range may seem huge (300' range increment, doubled to 600' through the Distance enchantment, firing ten range increments), but a firebase with such short-range weapons can only provide fire support to ten square kilometers. When the theatre of battle is, for argument's sake, 50km by 50km (2500 square kilometers), you're only covering 0.4% of the field of battle. Ok, it's time to think outside the box. D&D rules aren't up to throwing things as far as you want. Forget the direct fantasy to modern analogies. If you want to get something far away very fast use teleport. How about a teleportation circle that you can change the destination. Then the wizard operating the device needs some way to scry the area for targeting. Once he sees the target the loader tosses whatever they are using for a warhead into the circle. Boom. Of course, this would be a very powerful and expensive item. Teleportation Circle is based on Greater Teleport which can get you anywhere on your plane. You could bomb other planets! A range limit would be reasonable. Plain old Teleport has a range of 100 miles/per level. You probably would want to make it even shorter. Devices based on spells like Forbiddance would be needed to prevent the "telebombing" of command posts, bunkers and the King's palace.
Ranger REG 06-05-06, 03:25 AM	So if any one of you guys has some rules for cannons, I really'd liek to know them. d20 Modern and d20 Past.
Elthbert 06-05-06, 03:54 AM	Well as the title says, I'm looking for any rules concerning cannons in D&D. The chapter in the DMG concerning "modern" weapons dosn't inlcude any stats for real cannons. What would be a good range for a defensively installed cannon and how much damage should it do either by solid projectiles or by explosive shells? I tried to figure something out by looking at the stats for catapults and trebuchets in "Heroes of Battle", but they are not quite satisfying. AFAIK cannons in the 15th century had effective ranges at around 1 mile depending on the size and the mounting. So if any one of you guys has some rules for cannons, I really'd liek to know them. A mile for 15th century cannon--- I don't think so not even at extreme range, certianly not at effective range. Effective ranges did not begne to approach a mile until the turn of the 19th century. This is one of the reasons rockets went out of favor, artillery finally had range which made rockets obsolete.
Sunrider 06-05-06, 05:03 AM	Early cannons were quite capable of very long ranges - they just weren't capable of hitting anything at that range. Not because of poor design, mind you (although cannons weren't rifled until later, a city or town is a rather large target...), but because they didn't know much about ballistics. Basically, people thought that artillery projectiles moved in a more-or-less straight line for a certain distance, then dropped vertically like a stone - as a result, they couldn't hit anything at long range. Had they realised that cannonballs moved in parabolic arcs, long-range artillery would probably have come into use much sooner, at least in sieges. After all, when you're shooting at a town from several kilometres away, you have a large target to aim at, and are out of reach of enemy muskets; conversely, defending artillery would have a much more difficult time hitting individual cannons over that range. Stick them behind palisade fences and sandbags with defending muskets, and raids by enemy cavalry to destroy your cannon become less of a problem too...
Feather 06-05-06, 09:48 AM	Cannon: 3,000gp. Range 100ft. Maximum range 1,000ft. Crew 3. Hardness 10. 200hp. 400lb. Medium sized, long. Requires 6 rounds to reload, but only 3 rounds if three crew. Requires a DC15 Craft Alchemy or Profession (Siege Engineer) check with every use by Crew Captain (note additional crews profession checks only apply to aiding ranged attack). If this check is failed by 5, Powder-Cannon must roll on the mishap table. (d6) 1- Cannon explodes into a 20ft radius eruption of fire and smoke, dealing 6d6 fire damage, 4d6 slashing damage. Requires a DC18 reflex save to take half damage. Additionally, for the next three rounds, the radius is filled with noxious smoke (p304 DMG) 2- Cannon detonates in blast of pressure. 20ft radius eruption of steel. 4d6 slashing damage. Requires a DC18 reflex save to take half damage. Additionally, for the next three rounds, the radius is filled with noxious smoke (p304 DMG) 3- Cannon erupts in puff of foul smelling smoke. Same as 1, except no explosion. 4- Cannon belches 60foot cone of smoke. 5- Cannon ammunition is jammed in chamber. Cannon is inoperable until a DC25 Siege Engineer check can be made to repair it. 6- Cannon does not fire. Can be fired next round and functions normally. A cannon is extremely difficult to manoeuvre to hit an individual. Any attempt to hit a large creature takes a –4, while hitting a medium creature takes a –8 and so on for increasingly smaller foes. Any mounted character is treated as the same size category of their mount. Cannonball: 20D6, 5sp. Adamantine Cannonball: 25d6, 1000gp. Is treated as having Penetrating Shot, PHB2. The 60ft line from the feat applies after the first hit. Can be recovered after use with a DC20 search check on the impact site.
Feather 06-05-06, 09:51 AM	Forgot to mention, cannonballs ignore hardness of immobile objects. PEACH is very appreciated on my rules for cannons, btw. It's based off the rules for siege weaponry in heroes of battle. :D
The WarOverlord 06-05-06, 10:12 AM	Well as the title says, I'm looking for any rules concerning cannons in D&D. The chapter in the DMG concerning "modern" weapons dosn't inlcude any stats for real cannons. What would be a good range for a defensively installed cannon and how much damage should it do either by solid projectiles or by explosive shells? I tried to figure something out by looking at the stats for catapults and trebuchets in "Heroes of Battle", but they are not quite satisfying. AFAIK cannons in the 15th century had effective ranges at around 1 mile depending on the size and the mounting. So if any one of you guys has some rules for cannons, I really'd liek to know them. Hmmm. In Ultima a Cannon did 1d50 damage to whatever the cannon ball hit. It was a fixed, smooth bore cannon small enough for 1 person to carry (45lb..not so "small"), but in being fixed there was no way to aim it upwards or downard to increase or shorten its range short of putting it on a ramp. (About 100 yards max range w/o ramping) cach is that the keg of powder that sets off the canon of this size is a good 25 pounds (including keg's weight0 and the cannon balls are 5lb each. Ya Know, 1 mile is impressive, but 1) that is likely a non mobile cannon constructed on site 2) thats going to burn at least 500lb of gunpowder per shot and 3) without magical oe tehnological aiming aid it is unlikely that you'll hit anything dead on 1 mile away (which is why in the 15th century you fire as many cannons as you can into the area hoping to hit something....Even during the Civil War they are firing hundreds of cannons into a tight formation of soldiers and mabye only 5 or 10 soldiers here and their go down as the other few hundre cannon balls fall short or go too much to the right or too much to the left or right over the target....lol)
Oliver D'Argent 06-05-06, 10:20 AM	But, sometimes, air power isn't the answer. Aircraft can be shot down. A mass of 1st level archers using Rapid Shot can put an enormous number of arrows into the air; spread them out a bit and you've created a killing zone for aircraft. Depending on how high you fly and what your aircraft are made of, that may not be as big a worry as you might think. For archers with Far Shot, the maximum range for a heavy crossbow is 1800 feet and 1650 feet for a composite longbow - and those ranges incur a -18 to hit. If you are using some kind of constructed flying device, keep in mind that regular missle weapons only do half damage to objects - 5 points max from a heavy crossbow and only 4 points max from a composite longbow (unless it has a strength enhancement - which doesn't seem likely to happen in large numbers). If the vehicle is made of wood, which has a hardness of 5, they won't even be able to damage it with bolts and arrows.
Sennet 06-05-06, 10:45 AM	A mile for 15th century cannon--- I don't think so not even at extreme range, certianly not at effective range. Effective ranges did not begne to approach a mile until the turn of the 19th century. This is one of the reasons rockets went out of favor, artillery finally had range which made rockets obsolete. I know that a mile sounds a bitt off for that time, and certainly it's not the "effective" range for such cannons, but larger cannos like the "Mons Meg" where said to fire an iron-round over 1000m and a stone-round even over 2000m. And that cannon was built in 1457. My problem is that it's pretty hard to get some good ranges for let's say quarter-pounder-cannons from the 15th/16th century. I'd think their effective ranges would be around 200m-300m, but does anyone have some good sources concerning this?
Sunrider 06-05-06, 10:49 AM	Archers are just low-level threats to 'aircraft' - it's like modern infantry shooting at strike aircraft with assault rifles. Only a threat at low levels, rarely hits, but a threat nonetheless (a roll of 20 still hits). But, in order for aircraft to actually effectively attack infantry on the ground, they must fly at low levels. Also, many of the 'aircraft' in D&D involve exposed crew members (albeit with cover) firing from a flying platform at ground targets - archers can then just target the crew. Greater threats would include such things as surface-to-air missiles (an item that combines a scroll of Fly (or anything which grants even faster flight) + scroll of Find the Path + scroll of Fireball (or whatever is deemed more effective against flying craft)), dedicated anti-aircraft batteries (e.g. ballistae with the Distance enchantment - they can't fire frequently, but a whole battery of them will pose a significant threat) and enemy air-superiority fighters (possibly missile-armed as well). Sure, I could engage in an air battle over enemy territory (thereby losing all downed aircrew, like the Luftwaffe in 1940) but, if possible, I'd rather hit them with artillery (special forces are another option - think elite strike team infiltrating enemy territory via a HALO jump from an invisible flying carpet).
Sunrider 06-05-06, 10:56 AM	I know that a mile sounds a bitt off for that time, and certainly it's not the "effective" range for such cannons, but larger cannos like the "Mons Meg" where said to fire an iron-round over 1000m and a stone-round even over 2000m. And that cannon was built in 1457. My problem is that it's pretty hard to get some good ranges for let's say quarter-pounder-cannons from the 15th/16th century. I'd think their effective ranges would be around 200m-300m, but does anyone have some good sources concerning this? Given the huge powder charges and high pressures or extra-long barrels needed to accelerate large cannonballs to high velocity and the limits to metallurgy at the time (no high-tensile steel in 1540), the small- to mid-calibre cannon of the time would probably have had a greater range than the large-calibre cannon (which were only really useful for smashing walls). With a smaller calibre, a smaller powder charge could be used, and barrel lengths could be kept to reasonable limits. Not the case with cannons of 60cm or so calibre... Effective range would have been somewhat less than potential range, though, due to such factors as loose-fitting cannonballs, lack of rifling and the lack of ballistics knowledge I mentioned earlier. If you're indiscriminately bombarding a town, though, there's only so much accuracy you need.