Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evadyn 02-06-05, 07:13 AM	I can't find cannons in any of the books in my store so if you could post you could post your own ideas or somthing oficial (So that you don't violate the CoC to much ofcourse). I would be gratefull.
bastet 02-06-05, 09:45 AM	what type of canon? their is a big difference between the canons of the civil war and the first canons. extrapolating form the DMG's musket i get some thing about like this: this mined you is for a crude canon cost:2000-3000 damage:5d6 critical:- range increment:300 min of100 crew:6 if I were you I would think carefully before adding guns to your campaign. I find you sig offensive please change it. over and out
Evadyn 02-06-05, 09:58 AM	I'm loking for ship cannons from the 17th-18th century And as for my sig, I had that for two months now and when i added the autor yesterday the complains started coming in (how the world is narow minded) I have not come into this world to make men better, but to make use of their weaknesses.
bastet 02-06-05, 10:42 AM	i think my pricing was a little off should cost as much as 5000-7000. for a ship cannon i think the crew is moor like 8-10 including powder monkeys(small boys who brought cartages to the cannons from the hold) the damage for a ship cannon depended on the wait 12 ponder and so on, And type of shot what are you thinking about how big is the ship more info plz. the author is not as bothering as the actual quote. This one is not a hole lot better, but it is better thank you
Evadyn 02-06-05, 11:47 AM	OK Ship a 95ft by 25ft. Sailing ship/Frigate should hold 20 cannons 10 on each deck and five per deck per size, ship to ship combat (so no minimum range) I find the number for the crew you gave to be to much (1powdermonkey, 1 man to load the cannon ball, 1 to push it in 1 to light it (Full round action?) and 2 to adjust it so that is 5 to 6 men per cannon) As for reloading and ship combat: Each ship rolls initiative (the steersman’s Initiative+Captians Char. level) when on there turn each ship can move accordingly to there speed and shot in the came time (rate of fire=number of cannons), to hit with a cannon roll a d20 against the square DC (5 normal, 10 if moving). Any other ideas? And what about ship HP and destruction.
Bluebrush 02-06-05, 03:15 PM	You want to check out the Arms and Equipment guide, which I'm pretty sure has info on ships in it. And possibly cannons.
Melpomene 02-06-05, 03:34 PM	I thought the DMG had cannons. Oh, well. I use Dragonlance's Dragonmech.
bastet 02-06-05, 03:56 PM	I think you need to make that DC higher canons are fairly temperamental and the ships role making a uneven changing surface so: if your ship is still as is theirs dc 5, your ship still theirs moving dc10, you and them moving stilldc15, both moving dc20 the attack bonus should be based on they type of cannon+crew cheaf’s skill modifier for aiming divided by 2 the real question are you going to roll the battle as two individual ships fighting or on the level of the man to man. If as ships fined the average time for the cannons on the side in combat to reload to deter man how many shots they get and just hammer it out till one ship sinks rolling the damage all to gather if its one on one each cannon might have a different reload rate so you will want to use a battle matrix see DMG if they get a critical then maybe they take out a apposing cannon or mast. as i said before range, acurasy and crew size was determined mostly by type of cannon the 3 most popular being 6,8 and 12 ponders hear is a site that tells allot about range and crew size ranging form 5 (the brits) too about 10 (russsans) http://www.napoleonguide.com/artillery_crews.htm but those crews do not include powder monkeys so figure one powder monkey 2-5 cannons my sources say it can take any ware 90 seconds to 5 minuets depending on the skill of the crew so you should determine the time depending on the level of the cannon crew chief, As for ships Hp/ AC -3 when still +3 when moving due to a good captains ability to change direction fast + 30-50 (assuming it’s a man of war)for armor (men of war had thick hulls) another think to consider is the canons being on the gun deck were across form the other ships cannons with incidentally were on the other ships gun deck both gun decks being well above water blasting a hole in the gun deck did not sink a ship it was after hours of blasting holes that you did major internal damage to the ship the hp should be in the hundreds wow i work hard for you pepole :twitch: enjoy over and out B
bastet 02-06-05, 03:58 PM	the ships in the A&E are not what he/she is looking for they are ships that use rams for the most part not advaned sailing vesales :rant:
The Colonel 02-06-05, 04:27 PM	5d6 is way too low for a cannon ball. There was a very simple rule with cannon balls - if one hit you full toss you lost whatever it hit. You'd probably have to score it as vorpal or whatever. D&D sacrifices firearms damage for ROF - I am all too aware of this since the firearms damage they give is silly - but cannon should probably start at 5d6, for a high gauge swivel gun. Hits to an indivdual target with this weapon should be nearly impossible, as opposed to completely impossible as with a larger piece. Back in the day being hit by a cannon ball was usually about (bad) luck than because someone was aiming at you. If you do get hit no armour you are wearing will possibly do you any good. The large crew of a cannon is largely due to the number of men needed to haul it about. In practise a gun crew was a theoretical unit since men would be attatched from embarked troops and marines and detatched for damage control, sailwork etc. Almost no ships would have enough men to fight both sides of guns at once. Why the Russians had so many men per gun I have no idea - maybe they had standing duty teams and temporarily allocated men from them to the guns, maybe their recoil rigs stank and it took that many men to run in and out, or maybe they had lousy drills and needed that many to keep up ROF.
The_Grikk 02-06-05, 04:36 PM	just thought everyone would like to know that cannons could fire up to and over 3 miles. Just some food for thought. thats back then. A M1A1 cannon can fire 5.5 (fairly accuratly i might add) and the artillery we have now can fire VERY VERY far.
The Colonel 02-06-05, 04:45 PM	Not sure you could get 3 miles out of a C16-17 piece. Maybe a napoleonic era long 36lber or something, and you had to be firing at a ship, large building or packed mass of troops to be able to hit anything. Even then it was dicey.
The_Grikk 02-06-05, 04:52 PM	true but all the other posts had 100 to 300 feet. I was just saying that a cannons range was much much more than that. Although usually fights ended up being very close quarters, so the ships could broad side each other. But she did say 17th to 18th century so thats about when the Napoleonic era was. (LATE 18th century mind you, but still the 18th century). Thats when England had long 9's which could easily fire that far (not accuratly mind you, but is was done).
Evadyn 02-06-05, 06:01 PM	To clear things up I am a Link removed. Now to the question at hand From your posts Cannon Damage: Around 8d6? Range: 1 mile(can be fired to a maximum of 3 miles) Reloading: takes 2 minute or 1 minute with a sucsesful captian check(DC 20) also requiers a minimum of 5 men Captian check (1d20+cha mod+wis mod) this is not a skill, but you gain +2 synergy from 5 ranks in profesion sailor?, it is maide by the captain. Ship HP= (Wood type+Wood thicknes(per inch of thicknes of the ship side))*(length+width) Wood types Normal=1 Darkwood=3 And other Types So a Darkwood ship (95*25) would have (3+3inch side)*(95+25)=6*120=720 HP Does this seem OK? I have no ideas on AC.
bastet 02-06-05, 06:39 PM	three inches is relay not that thick Especially for a man of war would you like one foot of oak or three inches of oak between you and a cannon ball? if this is a ship that sees allot combat(as it seams to considering it has 20 cannons)it will have allot thicker walls.
Draco Strang 02-06-05, 11:26 PM	The large crew of a cannon is largely due to the number of men needed to haul it about. In practise a gun crew was a theoretical unit since men would be attatched from embarked troops and marines and detatched for damage control, sailwork etc. Almost no ships would have enough men to fight both sides of guns at once. Why the Russians had so many men per gun I have no idea - maybe they had standing duty teams and temporarily allocated men from them to the guns, maybe their recoil rigs stank and it took that many men to run in and out, or maybe they had lousy drills and needed that many to keep up ROF. I'm pretty knowledgable about the Age of Sail, so lemme offer my insights: The British Navy, back in it's heydey (about 1750 to 1830, they were just unstoppable by anyone) fought like this: Enough men were allocated to the guns so that before injuries and deaths, every gun on one side of the ship could be fully manned, with spares enough to leave 1 man at each gun on the unoccupied side, along with the requisite powder monkeys and body-tossers. Also, officers were given control of sections, which number anywhere from two to twenty guns, to oversee, based on their rank and responsibility. Now, as death and injury occurred, these numbers pared down a bit, and the body-tossers joined in on the crews, and so did the extra men on the one side. As guns were dismounted, those crews (well, whoever survived the giant cannon flopping around on deck, and the hail of splinters) moved to fill in other guns. So, the guns were almost always fully crewed (or as close as is possible) but when they lost 6 guys, they usually just let one gun fall silent, and concentrate on keeping the other guns firing as fast as possible. There were always enough sailors to do everything, because ships had two watches. While one was sleeping, the other was sailing. So, it's possible to lose a complete half of your crew, and still be able to effectively handle your ship well enough to move from point A to point B. So, most of one watch manned the sails, rigging, and other components of the ship while the other watch and remainder of the 1st watch manned the guns, ran damage control, and helped the surgeon out. When it was time for a boarding action, a chunk of the gun crews were peeled away to form the core of the boarding party, and this was supplemented by the ship's detachment of marines. Meanwhile, the ship is still fully able to maneuver (assuming it wasn't too shot up to move) due to it's complement of sailors that try to ignore the hail of lead and shot and focus on their job. You'd be suprised at how light casualties really were. Sure, people died and were greviously injured, but as is known, disease killed way more than cannon. Most captains were sensible/lucky enough to break off the combat before they were too shot up to move, and battles rarely took more than a half hour or so once it came to broadside time. two or three volleys of every cannon on the starboard side makes the other guy think real hard about wanting to continue a fight. It was rare that a ship sank or was so messed up it had to be set afire because repair was out of the question. However, very occasionally, a ship would get raked by someone that crossed her bow/stern, and cannonballs would just rip down the whole length of the ship, killing tons of men. That was a day wrecker. Splinters played a large role too. (I'm not talking splinters from your deck, I'm talking splinters the size of baseball bats right through your torso) Just be glad we dont sail around in wooden ships laden with gunpowder anymore, eh?
Evadyn 02-07-05, 07:53 AM	OK that was the teory now what about ship to ship fights in D&D. And the ship is capable of having 20 cannons right now they have 6, 3 on each side.
Kulthos 02-07-05, 12:03 PM	The problem with cannons is that in RL they are deadly beyond the ability of flesh and blood to withstand. A cannon ball hit should be able to kill a dragon, and certainly a tough high-level barbarian. Cannons were used to knock town thick stone walls and kill soldiers in large numbers per shot. Including cannons and firearms should make armor obsolete and really make formally frightening monsters endangered.
Evadyn 02-07-05, 12:12 PM	You got a point Kulthos but as you said:"in RL" And that means I want D&D Cannons
The_Grikk 02-07-05, 12:50 PM	OK that was the teory now what about ship to ship fights in D&D. And the ship is capable of having 20 cannons right now they have 6, 3 on each side. if your talking about a small vessel maybe. But a man of war or a ship of the line was more like 60 to 70 cannon. And it was crewed by a thousand men. Simply rederecting your course was a couple hundred man job. Actually Brittian once built a ship with like 120 cannon. It was like 4 floors up. Funny thing though, on its first test broad side it flipped!! There were so many cannons and it was so top heavy that the whole thing just fell onto its side and sunk when it fired. Didnt even get hit with anything.
Quenditar 02-07-05, 12:59 PM	The problem with cannons is that in RL they are deadly beyond the ability of flesh and blood to withstand. A cannon ball hit should be able to kill a dragon, and certainly a tough high-level barbarian. Cannons were used to knock town thick stone walls and kill soldiers in large numbers per shot. Including cannons and firearms should make armor obsolete and really make formally frightening monsters endangered. There really isn't any way to handle that except giving cannonballs the ability to bypass hardness and damage reduction and an obscene amount of damage - forget 8d6, maybe start at 20d6.
The_Grikk 02-07-05, 01:44 PM	There really isn't any way to handle that except giving cannonballs the ability to bypass hardness and damage reduction and an obscene amount of damage - forget 8d6, maybe start at 20d6. or just make it more of an area affect that ignored the hardness of objects and DR and did like 6d6 for a 12pnd ball, 8d6 for a 14, 4d6 for a 10, 2d6 for a 8, and 1d6 for a 6. Most ships will have 10 to 12 pounders on board. This way it’s a reflex save (saying the crew rolled high enough to hit the target area. This way a person can take half or full dmg (or non) and it does what its supposed to... destroy walls and take out numbers of people. Make it like a 5 or 10 foot area effect where it hits, and give it a 1 in 20 chance of bouncing and hitting the square behind that one. as for the check make the crew firing the cannon make a profession check (cannon) and if its a 10 they hit from 100ft away and raise it by 1 for every 100ft after that. And then add a -2 for moving and another if the target is moving and different minuses in bad weather, really windy, bad visibility or uphill shooting (making a bonus for down hill firing).
Kulthos 02-07-05, 03:23 PM	If you want to be able to knock down a 5-foot thick stone wall, a pretty modest one on a minor fort, you would need to be able to do 908 points of damage per shot. The old city walls and most castle walls were much thicker than 5 feet, and were all rendered obsolete by cannons. The ruined castle on the hill in my wife's home town was destroyed by the French who had one whole cannon. They put the cannon in the town square and blew the place apart in short order.
Evadyn 02-07-05, 05:43 PM	To hit: a Perform (artilery) check against a base DC 15 Modifiers: Your ship moving +5 Other ship moving +5 Cannon damage: (standard 12 pound cannon ball, +/- 1d6 per diference in pounds) 10d6 bludgeoning damage Range: 300ft, max 2 miles (4000ft.).
Evadyn 02-08-05, 06:04 PM	Nobody want to help blow things up? :weep:
bastet 02-08-05, 06:22 PM	about the town wall thing well, that’s a different type of canon all together, a couple of feet of oak could absorb or at least slow down a canon ball to the point of decreasing damage or ells one hit would do vast damage. that’s why as some one already said the most damage was down when a ball went down the long way of the ship because the thick ness of ship hull was less in the back. Also the cannons were firing above the water line of the ship so as long as the below water levle hull remained intact the boat stays floating something to consider splinters agen some one said this already not pin size but baseball bat size. if a cannon ball hits the chest of a person they are dead no saves but perhaps a dexterity save and they can only loose a leg any way their dead so no ac but a dex save possibly but like it has been said the splinters were the killers more so than canon balls per say
Kulthos 02-08-05, 10:34 PM	Well, two feet of "wood" takes 245 points of damage to destroy. If the anti-city-wall guns are to have damages in the range of 1000 points per shot, the smaller anti-ship ones should have an average damage on the lines of 300 per shot. Perhaps 70-100d6 (or 7-10d6 x 10). Perhaps people on board take 5-10d6 from splinters if you are within ten feet of the impact and be destroyed by a direct hit.
Kobold Horde 02-08-05, 10:55 PM	What I would say is a ballista, except numbers would be much higher. I think mabey 3 or 4 times each number (1 d 20 may become 3-4 d 20) Reloading would be harder, ammo more expensive (seeing as you need lage iron shots and expensive gunpowder), same crews,bludgeoning damage(not peircing) and would require a lot of training. Probably players wouldent have much use for them, but NPC crews would be nice. Also, you might want different types of shot (grapeshot, bombs, norm, ect.) :evillaugh
Twylyght 02-09-05, 12:05 AM	I agree a canon hit is something you shouldnt live through.. BUT I also greatly dislike the use of unavoidable death (except in the face of extreme character stupidity) so.. perhaps after you have determined where the shot lands (however you decide to do that) any living creature in the square the ball lands in makes a reflex save (dc = attack or skill roll that fired the shot) to avoid being hit directly by the ball, a creature making this save is still hit by the AoE effect of the shot, and fails that save automaticly. Failing this reflex save the creature then makes a fortitude save at the same dc, or die. A creature who passes this fortitude save is still affected by the AoE, and also fails the AoE save as above, however they face a potentiol secondary effect. If the AoE damage does not reduce them to -1 or fewer hitpoints, they are immediatly lowered to -1 hitpoints, but are considered stable. This loss of hitpoints can not trigger another save for massive damage, as the nature of the effect itself represents this trauma. This would show that being hit directly by a cannon is a devastating trauma, while still allowing for the unpredictable damage tolerance that people have. (example people have hit the ground after a parachute failed to open and survived, while other fall from the bottom rung of a ladder and die) Even someone who survives the shot, is out of the combat, without magical aid atleast. For the AoE damage, Id probally varry it depending on the terrain involved. a 15 foot radius area, save dc = to attack or skill check used, reflex for half. soft ground damage 10d6, rocky terain, wooden structures and the like 15d6, variable as the dm sees fit. this part is a little underestimated i guess, but in the spirit of the game the AoE shouldnt be *too* fatal, as nasty as a direct hit is, thats still noticable damage, and isnt likely to end a whole campain in a single round. id also take a diffrent direction and have damage to structure be completely unrelated to damage done to creatures, probally something along the lines of 1d6 per pound of the shot x 10 , ignoring hardness. a long nine against an object would score from 90 - 360 ignoring hardness. noticable to a stone fort but great at tearing up another ship.. considering 12-36 pounders also saw alot of use thats alot of potential damage, though the heavier the shot the less accurate and usually range. if you really wanna knock down a building though.. theres this tiny little cannon the Carronade from scotland, that saw use by the brittish it the late 1700's, it used a measly 66 pound shot... thats probally a little to much damage lol 660-3960... at any rate, the damage involved probally reserves warfare using cannons to higher CRs, or it might be over a little to fast
bastet 02-09-05, 08:43 AM	if you have gunpowder than what is your magic levle of your game unless it high a can ball hitin en ware exsept the tip of your fingers means death unless you get insent medicle atention if it hits any part of the torso eather you loos both your lungs (cant breath bad) or most of your organs just stuff like liver,entastens,kidnlys all that stuf that keeps your body moving and happy oh they thair is the bleading even if it hits jusa leg your dead form blood loss
Evadyn 02-09-05, 09:11 AM	I agree with Twylyght that seems reasonable. We are playing FR but around 1470 (the WotC year is 1373) The magic is still the same, but the gnomes have greatly evolved and their technology has spread everywhere. Some changes exist, like the aglarond region is now under Thay and Evereska is destroyed. We already use firearms <link> (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=373029). The problem I had is making firearms that are not stronger than magic so a cannon shouldn’t do more than 15d6 (Magic=Empowered fireball). Now this thread has had some good ideas on To hit, Damage, AoE, Death... But the thing missing is HP, how to calculate HP for ships. Now by my formula: (Wood type+inch of thickness)*(length+width) Let’s say we have a 100ft long ship that is 25 ft wide, normal wood and side is 5 inch thick (1+5)*(100+25)=6*125=750HP So a 10d6 cannon, average damage is 35 One cannon would destroy this ship in 21,428571428571428571428571428571 Rounds (ONE ship combat round = 1 minute) So that would take 21 minutes. Is this fine? Should I do something else? P.S. I know there are ships in the A&E guide but that is for different kinds of battle, and cannon would destroy it in a second.
Twylyght 02-09-05, 05:11 PM	the part that really gets tricky with ship to ship combat is that the total damage one takes, isnt so important as where it takes the damage. a cannon shot could tear through both sides of a ship and collapse part of the deck, but still leave the ship mostly effective, while a shot that hit the lower hull could quickly sink a ship while having done much less actual damage. Perhaps using your formula, but dividing the ship and hit points into sections(25 ft x 1/2 width sections perhaps. the ship in Evadyn's post would have 8 25 x 12.5 sections), dividing hp among the sections evenly (rounding up) and if any section reaches 0 hp, a breach begins to sink the ship? to refrence the same post, the 8 sections of this ship would have 94hp. This works in theory with the idea of avergae damage, but might disapear quickly with multiple cannons, but even with a 750 total, facing 10 guns at avergae damage, thats just barely over 2 rounds. If allowing critical hits in ship to ship combat, a boat may be sunk in a single hit! but thats not completely out of the scope of reality, as it could reflect a explosion of the powder magazine, or on some types of ship a hit shattering the keel. ships less than 25 ft long would be 2 sections, and past 25 ft, uneven muiltiples are rounded to the nearest (for determing number of sections) the section hit by an attack would be chosen randomly from those in the attacker line of fire, or to hit a desired section increase the AC or DC by a fitting amount (atleast 10 id say). dunno just thinking aloud... in text... well you know what i mean lol :rofl:
Evadyn 02-09-05, 05:34 PM	How about a diferent formula? (Wood type+Inches)*(length+width+hight of side) So lets say the same ship in mz last post 100ft long ship that is 25 ft wide, 25ft high?, normal wood and side is 5 inch thick (1+5)*(100+25+25)=6*150=900HP And the ship is devided in sections like this (length/half width)=100/12.5=8 So each section has 112,5 HP And to make it harder, if you destroy one section the ship is 50% slower, if you destroy two it cant move, if you destroy three it sinks. (but all the time the ship is slowly sinking ofcourse, but only to a certain point) That better?
Twylyght 02-10-05, 03:44 AM	thats sounding good, that way things arnt over too fast. could describe it kinda like so. 1 section destroyed: The ships speed is reduced by 50% has began to slowly sink. Each round the leak is left un attended a randomly determined adjescent section takes 2d6 damage, ignoring hardness. If 10 crewmen are available to attend the leak (bucket chains ect) this secondary damage is negated 2 sections destroyed: The ship speed is reduced to 10%, and can not change course on its own power (allowing for drifting and momentum). Each round a random adjescent section takes 8d6 damage, ignoring hardness. At this point the damage is to vast to fully controll during an encounter, but 20 crewmen spending a full round to bucket chain reduce this damage by 1/2(rounded down) 3 sections destroyed: The ship is lost. water rapidly fills the ship, completely capsizing in 3 rounds. On that 3rd round, Anyone on deck makes a swim check, dc 10 or be pulled under with wreckage, any one below deck, is automatically pulled below. Anyone pulled below makes a swim check (dc 20) each round to escape the wreckage. Any character who escapes the wreckage can reach the surface after escaping in a number of rounds equal to the number of checks they required to escape, for example if a character pulled below fails the first check roll, then makes it on the second, they spend a third round swiming upward, at reach the surface at the end of the 4th. Regular rules for drowning apply, and begin on the round the ship capsizes. Ship combat would add alot of use to those hardly ever seen repair damage spells i think :)