Casters with shields; is Wizards just dumb, or...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casters with shields; is Wizards just dumb, or...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Azdraugnor
10-25-06, 12:58 PM A character using a weapon and a shield cannot cast spells with somatic components, correct? The rules seem pretty clear on the point to me, but always seeing WotC characters (Jozan, I'm looking at you) using both, and such things as the Duskblade ignoring spell failure from shields (...I guess if they had a shield but not a weapon, they could still cast) make me wonder if I'm missing something here.
Gloves of Storing can get around the whole issue, but still...
nalanthi
10-25-06, 01:01 PM i dunno, but if i ever play a caster, i use a shield... the first level spell anyway.
Someone
10-25-06, 01:18 PM Depends on the shield. A small/light shield still leaves your hand free enough to hold something, so you could transfer your weapon to that hand, cast a spell with your now open weapon hand, and then transfer the weapon back.

Even with a large/heavy shield, you can still drop your weapon, cast a spell, and then quickdraw/pick up the weapon again.

Or you could just wait to cast spells until the combat is over (and you don't need a weapon out).
Neofish
10-25-06, 01:47 PM A character using a weapon and a shield cannot cast spells with somatic components, correct? The rules seem pretty clear on the point to me, but always seeing WotC characters (Jozan, I'm looking at you) using both, and such things as the Duskblade ignoring spell failure from shields (...I guess if they had a shield but not a weapon, they could still cast) make me wonder if I'm missing something here.
Gloves of Storing can get around the whole issue, but still...

Your not completely correct, you only need a single hand free to cast spells with the Somatic component. So, if you are wearing a shield and nothing in the other hand, you may cast a spell with the a somatic component (but you will suffer the ASF chance by wearing the shield, unless you have an ability to ignore said ASF).
mvincent
10-25-06, 02:18 PM From the 3.5 FAQ:
"To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component,
you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s
Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter)
who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on
the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a
somatic component (which includes most spells in the game).
To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe
his weapon.
Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or
light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one
hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the
buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The
light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but
since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light
shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a
hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held
in the same hand as your shield, of course.)"

For arcane casters, note that a mithral buckler has no ASF% and no non-proficiency penalties
Oompa
10-26-06, 04:14 AM I as cleric got an heavy shield and a weapon.. the weapon is chained to my hand.. so if i release the weapon it dangles on a chain.. :)
risner
10-26-06, 08:35 AM I as cleric got an heavy shield and a weapon.. the weapon is chained to my hand.. so if i release the weapon it dangles on a chain.. :)

and becomes a move action to fetch again.
Nezkrul
10-26-06, 09:30 AM whenever I play a wizard, the first magic item I pick up with money is a mithiral buckler, and keep paying to have the thing enchanted higher and higher as money permits... mithiral bucklers have no armor check penalty and 0% arcane spellfailure.
mvincent
10-26-06, 11:58 AM and becomes a move action to fetch again.Many DM's rule that re-grabbing a dropped, lanyarded weapon is equivalent to drawing a weapon.
ZeronHitaro
10-26-06, 12:36 PM I as cleric got an heavy shield and a weapon.. the weapon is chained to my hand.. so if i release the weapon it dangles on a chain.. :)
Not that this isn't a bad idea, but what pops into my head is this: What are you doing to do when a dragon (or something similar) tries to destroy your weapon by eating it? :schemes: They have been known to do that...
Oompa
10-26-06, 01:26 PM Then i would have a big problem :D
Jhaelen
10-26-06, 03:40 PM Many DM's rule that re-grabbing a dropped, lanyarded weapon is equivalent to drawing a weapon.And many don't.
mvincent
10-26-06, 04:04 PM And many don't.How would grabbing a weapon dangling from your wrist be more complicated than grabbing one dangling from your belt?
starfire311
10-26-06, 04:21 PM Many DM's rule that re-grabbing a dropped, lanyarded weapon is equivalent to drawing a weapon.

which is a move action unless you have a BAB of +1 and then you can do it as a free action as part of a move action
Azdraugnor
10-26-06, 05:52 PM How would grabbing a weapon dangling from your wrist be more complicated than grabbing one dangling from your belt?

The weapon is dangling from your hand, so moving your hand down to grab it doesn't work. You could make a fast scooping motion, or grab the chain with your other hand, but either way is rather more difficult than pulling a weapon off your belt.
mvincent
10-26-06, 07:08 PM The weapon is dangling from your hand, so moving your hand down to grab it doesn't work. You could make a fast scooping motion, or grab the chain with your other hand, but either way is rather more difficult than pulling a weapon off your belt.I have no idea how long (or short) the above mentioned chain was envisioned, but I specifically referred to a lanyard, which would typically be under 1' in length, and (from experience) is not normally more difficult to re-arm than pulling it from your belt... often it is quicker.

Also, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon ) for drawing a weapon say:
"This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."

An item lanyarded to your wrist would fall into the former category, not the latter.
Nom
10-27-06, 08:37 AM IMO, having several pounds dangling from your wrist would be an excellent way to mess up your somatic components good and proper.
Forged_Fury
10-27-06, 08:47 AM IMO, having several pounds dangling from your wrist would be an excellent way to mess up your somatic components good and proper.
Darn Nom, I was just going to point that out...
I wonder how that would work... I guess I would base it off weapon weight. Divide the weight by two and multiply by 10 to get the ASF?

-FF
Worloch
10-27-06, 09:25 AM Copy and paste from another thread I responded to:

Check the FAQ out:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar
to cast spells. Is he right?

Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component,
you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s
Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter)
who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on
the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a
somatic component (which includes most spells in the game).
To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe
his weapon.
Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or
light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one
hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the
buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The
light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but
since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light
shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a
hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held
in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t
state what type of action is required to switch hands on a
weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the
equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t
provoke attacks of opportunity).

So your options are:

1) Buckler - Free hand to cast with, but ironically, duskblades do not ignore the ASF from bucklers, only light and heavy shields

2) Light Shield - No free hand to cast with, but you can hold things, so you can switch your weapon to this hand and cast. Doesn't work out so great with arcane channeling, since you would obstensibly need your weapon in hand to combine the spellcast and attack. The Quick Draw feat could logically be extended to allowing you to switch your weapon between hands as a free action.

3) Heavy Shield - No free hand to cast with, and can't use that hand for anything else. Sheath your weapon or shield [move actions] or drop your weapon to cast.

There are also some options that work around those limitations:

4) Somatic Weaponry - From Complete Mage, it will allow you to cast while weilding a sword and shield, as long as the spell doesn't require material components [Eschew Materials works for that]. Costs a feat [or two] though.

5) Improved Shield Bash + Shield Spikes - Keep 1 hand free and use your shield as your weapon. Not a great weapon, and it takes a feat.

6) Ring of Force Shield - Activate or de-activate as a free action, so you can have your shield and a free hand, but not at the same time. Expensive, takes a ring slot, and can't be enchanted as a shield can.

7) Glove of Storing - Activate or de-activate as a free action, so you can store the item in hand, cast and then un-store the item again. The wording is such that it is ambiguous as to whether it would work on a shield, so you do run in to an issue there. Using it on your weapon allows casting, but arcane channeling could be an issue, as stated above.

8) Animated Shield - Doesn't take your hand, can be light or heavy, but is expensive, and takes up +2 of your +10 enhancement allocation for your shield.

As have probably ascertained by now, I just created a Duskblade, and have spent some time on this issue. You'd think they would have built something in to the class to deal with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azdraugnor 10-25-06, 12:58 PM	A character using a weapon and a shield cannot cast spells with somatic components, correct? The rules seem pretty clear on the point to me, but always seeing WotC characters (Jozan, I'm looking at you) using both, and such things as the Duskblade ignoring spell failure from shields (...I guess if they had a shield but not a weapon, they could still cast) make me wonder if I'm missing something here. Gloves of Storing can get around the whole issue, but still...
nalanthi 10-25-06, 01:01 PM	i dunno, but if i ever play a caster, i use a shield... the first level spell anyway.
Someone 10-25-06, 01:18 PM	Depends on the shield. A small/light shield still leaves your hand free enough to hold something, so you could transfer your weapon to that hand, cast a spell with your now open weapon hand, and then transfer the weapon back. Even with a large/heavy shield, you can still drop your weapon, cast a spell, and then quickdraw/pick up the weapon again. Or you could just wait to cast spells until the combat is over (and you don't need a weapon out).
Neofish 10-25-06, 01:47 PM	A character using a weapon and a shield cannot cast spells with somatic components, correct? The rules seem pretty clear on the point to me, but always seeing WotC characters (Jozan, I'm looking at you) using both, and such things as the Duskblade ignoring spell failure from shields (...I guess if they had a shield but not a weapon, they could still cast) make me wonder if I'm missing something here. Gloves of Storing can get around the whole issue, but still... Your not completely correct, you only need a single hand free to cast spells with the Somatic component. So, if you are wearing a shield and nothing in the other hand, you may cast a spell with the a somatic component (but you will suffer the ASF chance by wearing the shield, unless you have an ability to ignore said ASF).
mvincent 10-25-06, 02:18 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: "To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held in the same hand as your shield, of course.)" For arcane casters, note that a mithral buckler has no ASF% and no non-proficiency penalties
Oompa 10-26-06, 04:14 AM	I as cleric got an heavy shield and a weapon.. the weapon is chained to my hand.. so if i release the weapon it dangles on a chain.. :)
risner 10-26-06, 08:35 AM	I as cleric got an heavy shield and a weapon.. the weapon is chained to my hand.. so if i release the weapon it dangles on a chain.. :) and becomes a move action to fetch again.
Nezkrul 10-26-06, 09:30 AM	whenever I play a wizard, the first magic item I pick up with money is a mithiral buckler, and keep paying to have the thing enchanted higher and higher as money permits... mithiral bucklers have no armor check penalty and 0% arcane spellfailure.
mvincent 10-26-06, 11:58 AM	and becomes a move action to fetch again.Many DM's rule that re-grabbing a dropped, lanyarded weapon is equivalent to drawing a weapon.
ZeronHitaro 10-26-06, 12:36 PM	I as cleric got an heavy shield and a weapon.. the weapon is chained to my hand.. so if i release the weapon it dangles on a chain.. :) Not that this isn't a bad idea, but what pops into my head is this: What are you doing to do when a dragon (or something similar) tries to destroy your weapon by eating it? :schemes: They have been known to do that...
Oompa 10-26-06, 01:26 PM	Then i would have a big problem :D
Jhaelen 10-26-06, 03:40 PM	Many DM's rule that re-grabbing a dropped, lanyarded weapon is equivalent to drawing a weapon.And many don't.
mvincent 10-26-06, 04:04 PM	And many don't.How would grabbing a weapon dangling from your wrist be more complicated than grabbing one dangling from your belt?
starfire311 10-26-06, 04:21 PM	Many DM's rule that re-grabbing a dropped, lanyarded weapon is equivalent to drawing a weapon. which is a move action unless you have a BAB of +1 and then you can do it as a free action as part of a move action
Azdraugnor 10-26-06, 05:52 PM	How would grabbing a weapon dangling from your wrist be more complicated than grabbing one dangling from your belt? The weapon is dangling from your hand, so moving your hand down to grab it doesn't work. You could make a fast scooping motion, or grab the chain with your other hand, but either way is rather more difficult than pulling a weapon off your belt.
mvincent 10-26-06, 07:08 PM	The weapon is dangling from your hand, so moving your hand down to grab it doesn't work. You could make a fast scooping motion, or grab the chain with your other hand, but either way is rather more difficult than pulling a weapon off your belt.I have no idea how long (or short) the above mentioned chain was envisioned, but I specifically referred to a lanyard, which would typically be under 1' in length, and (from experience) is not normally more difficult to re-arm than pulling it from your belt... often it is quicker. Also, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon ) for drawing a weapon say: "This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item." An item lanyarded to your wrist would fall into the former category, not the latter.
Nom 10-27-06, 08:37 AM	IMO, having several pounds dangling from your wrist would be an excellent way to mess up your somatic components good and proper.
Forged_Fury 10-27-06, 08:47 AM	IMO, having several pounds dangling from your wrist would be an excellent way to mess up your somatic components good and proper. Darn Nom, I was just going to point that out... I wonder how that would work... I guess I would base it off weapon weight. Divide the weight by two and multiply by 10 to get the ASF? -FF
Worloch 10-27-06, 09:25 AM	Copy and paste from another thread I responded to: Check the FAQ out: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a My DM says that my cleric has to drop his morningstar to cast spells. Is he right? Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (Player’s Handbook, page 140) A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t state what type of action is required to switch hands on a weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity). So your options are: 1) Buckler - Free hand to cast with, but ironically, duskblades do not ignore the ASF from bucklers, only light and heavy shields 2) Light Shield - No free hand to cast with, but you can hold things, so you can switch your weapon to this hand and cast. Doesn't work out so great with arcane channeling, since you would obstensibly need your weapon in hand to combine the spellcast and attack. The Quick Draw feat could logically be extended to allowing you to switch your weapon between hands as a free action. 3) Heavy Shield - No free hand to cast with, and can't use that hand for anything else. Sheath your weapon or shield [move actions] or drop your weapon to cast. There are also some options that work around those limitations: 4) Somatic Weaponry - From Complete Mage, it will allow you to cast while weilding a sword and shield, as long as the spell doesn't require material components [Eschew Materials works for that]. Costs a feat [or two] though. 5) Improved Shield Bash + Shield Spikes - Keep 1 hand free and use your shield as your weapon. Not a great weapon, and it takes a feat. 6) Ring of Force Shield - Activate or de-activate as a free action, so you can have your shield and a free hand, but not at the same time. Expensive, takes a ring slot, and can't be enchanted as a shield can. 7) Glove of Storing - Activate or de-activate as a free action, so you can store the item in hand, cast and then un-store the item again. The wording is such that it is ambiguous as to whether it would work on a shield, so you do run in to an issue there. Using it on your weapon allows casting, but arcane channeling could be an issue, as stated above. 8) Animated Shield - Doesn't take your hand, can be light or heavy, but is expensive, and takes up +2 of your +10 enhancement allocation for your shield. As have probably ascertained by now, I just created a Duskblade, and have spent some time on this issue. You'd think they would have built something in to the class to deal with it.