casting two spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

casting two spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bleddy
03-27-06, 08:41 PM dose a +6 base attack bonus allow you to cast two spells?

any help would be nice.
Greenintern
03-27-06, 08:48 PM Nope!

Most spells take a single Standard action to cast, which means that you can only cast one per round! (Only One standard action is allowed per round).

If somehow you manage to be casting quickened spell, or a spell with a "free," "immediate," or "swift" casting time (They are almost exactly the same), then you can cast your "fast spell," plus another (although you are only allowed one "fast" spell per round).

I hope this was clear and useful. Good gaming!
bleddy
03-27-06, 08:55 PM if that is the case than you can only attack once per round since attacking is a standard action right? weather or not you have a +6 or not.
Nom
03-27-06, 09:02 PM Read the full attack rules on PH pg 143.

The reason it works this way is simple. Spells usually scale in power with class level: a fireball cast by a 10th level caster is twice as powerful as one cast by a 5th level caster. In contrast, a melee attack by a 10th level fighter is not (inherently) more dangerous than one by a 5th level fighter. The difference is that the 10th level fighter gets an additional attack.
bleddy
03-27-06, 09:05 PM thats why a wizard does not get a +6 attack bonus until 12th level
Grug the Just
03-27-06, 09:14 PM No. No, it's not. Spells have nothing to do with BAB.

Alright look, each round on your turn, you can do one of the following: A standard action and a move action (or vice versa). Two move actions. A full-round action.

Making a single attack is a Standard action, known as the "Attack action". Casting a spell is (usually) a Standard action.
Making multiple attacks is a full-round action, known as the "Full Attack action". It is generally separate from the "Attack action". There is no separate "Full Spell" action.

There is the Quicken Spell feat which can let you cast two spells in a round. It is not automatic and it is not a separate action.
bleddy
03-27-06, 09:23 PM a full attack action is still a full round action no matter what you call it. just say there is a full spell action wouldn't still be a full round action?
allenchan
03-27-06, 09:32 PM a full attack action is still a full round action no matter what you call it. just say there is a full spell action wouldn't still be a full round action?

No.

Nonono. :banghead:

They are not the same thing.

Higher BAB does not equate to being able to have multiple standard actions in a round. They. Are. Completely. Different. How one can mistake "attacks" for "casting spells" is beyond me.
Lotus Crane
03-27-06, 09:33 PM There's no such thing as a "spell action." Most spells simply have a casting time of 1 standard action, though there are a few spells (usually summons) that have a casting time of 1 full round.

There is however, a difference between a standard attack and a full attack. During a standard attack you only attack once regardless of your BAB, and it takes a standard action. During a full attack you attack as many times as you have additional attacks from high BAB, and it takes a full round action.

BAB only affects the number of physical attacks a character can make, not the number of spells they can cast. So no, unless you use Quicken Spell or a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action, there is normally no way to cast two spells in the same round.
dragonseth
03-27-06, 09:34 PM I would say that if there was a 'Full Spell' action, I would ban it. Being able to cast two spells in a round without boosting one's level with Quicken Spell would be too uber to comprehend. And, the lesser BAB of the 'Full Spell' would probably not come into effect, so it is also better than a Full Attack in that respect.
ShinAkuma2
03-27-06, 09:36 PM Dude, the answer's no. Deal with it.
bleddy
03-27-06, 09:44 PM isnt a ranged touch attack an attack that uses your BAB, and is also a spell so the only logical thing is that only spells that rely on BAB could be cast twice with a +6 BAB
dragonseth
03-27-06, 09:46 PM That's true, but the only way to cast more than once in a round, if both spells require standard actions to cast, is with quicken spell.
bleddy
03-27-06, 09:55 PM that is the reason a wizard has to wait until 12th lvl to have a +6 base attack bonus at that point in time a wizard is not worried about ranged touch attacks and rays except as a last resort.
Lotus Crane
03-27-06, 09:58 PM Actually ranged touch attack spells are usually better than save-based area spells because they're more reliable. And again, it's the spell itself that has a casting time of standard; even though one of the effects of the spell uses your BAB, it's casting a spell, not an attack action. And since you can't use more than one standard action in a round, you can't cast more than one spell. BAB can't change the number of standard actions you take in a round. Multiple physical attacks are only allowed because there's specifically a full attack action, but there is no such thing as a full spellcasting action (only some spells with a casting time of 1 full round).
dragonseth
03-27-06, 09:59 PM I'm sorry, that is NOT the reason their BAB progression is slow. It is slow, because training as a wizard doesn't give that much swordplay skill. But, the bottom line is that you cannot equate a single attack to a standard action spell. You can't just sub them in wherever it's convenient.
risner
03-27-06, 10:03 PM that is the reason a wizard has to wait until 12th lvl to have a +6 base attack bonus at that point in time a wizard is not worried about ranged touch attacks and rays except as a last resort.

Are you for real?
Do you really believe that BAB has anything to do with spell casting?
Are you reading the same books everyone else is reading?
bleddy
03-27-06, 10:03 PM a single attack, a standard action, and a spell are all on the same chart in the rule book pg 141. but what i am saying is that only and only spells that use your BAB to hit with should be affected if your BAB reaches +6.
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:06 PM Read the full attack rules on PH pg 143.

The reason it works this way is simple. Spells usually scale in power with class level: a fireball cast by a 10th level caster is twice as powerful as one cast by a 5th level caster. In contrast, a melee attack by a 10th level fighter is not (inherently) more dangerous than one by a 5th level fighter. The difference is that the 10th level fighter gets an additional attack.

nom sums it up best. (most) spells scale up when you grow levels. thus, a fireball from a tenth level wizard deals more damage than one from a fifth level.

except for magic, a new weapon or ability point buy every four levels, fighters dont deal extra damage. rather, theyre attacks scale a bit faster so that they can deal more damage (with more attacks) And your wizards physical attacs do grow with levels, although that is probably a moot point considering that they shouldnt be on the frontlines anyway
Lotus Crane
03-27-06, 10:06 PM Two spells still require two standard actions, which are impossible to do in the same round. BAB can't change that. Casting a spell that involves an attack roll is not an attack action, it's casting a spell.

You can't seriously think that dozens of experienced players telling you the same thing are wrong?
dragonseth
03-27-06, 10:07 PM a single attack, a standard action, and a spell are all on the same chart in the rule book pg 141. but what i am saying is that only and only spells that use your BAB to hit with should be affected if your BAB reaches +6.

And what we're saying is: none of them are
allenchan
03-27-06, 10:08 PM a single attack, a standard action, and a spell are all on the same chart in the rule book pg 141. but what i am saying is that only and only spells that use your BAB to hit with should be affected if your BAB reaches +6.

You, Sir, are an idiot.
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:09 PM seriously dude, im not all that experienced and I know better
KublaiKhan
03-27-06, 10:09 PM that is the reason a wizard has to wait until 12th lvl to have a +6 base attack bonus at that point in time a wizard is not worried about ranged touch attacks and rays except as a last resort.

Wrong. Very, very very wrong.

I do see the point you're trying to make, but it's still wrong.

The rules as written [ RAW ] state that a spell can take a free, swift, immediate, standard, or full-round action.

RAW state that you may take one [ 1 ] standard action per round.

The only way to cast more than one spell in a round is to have a spell prepared and/or available as a free, swift, or immediate action, and to also cast one as a standard action.

Base attack bonus has nothing to do with it.

Now, for the reasons why:

Attacking, like a fighter does, is a relatively simple procedure: the fighter puts the pointy [ or blunt ] end into the other guy. Large gestures. Some people get a bit fancy with it, but at the end of the day, it's just a question of putting metal and/or wood where the other guy doesn't want it.

Mages are a bit different. They recite complex incantations that may take longer than a round to even say, and bloody well play cat's cradle with their fingers. The verbal and somatic components, no matter *how* good you get at putting the pointy end of a stick into the other guy, will still take X amount of time to cast.

Those spells that don't require complex gestures and words are the ones you can cast as immediate, free, and swift actions--things like "Feather Fall", whose verbal component I've always thought was "Oh :censored:".

The reason that mage types have a poor BAB is *not* for balance in terms of number of spells cast--it's because people generally can't be good at both swords and spells at the same time.

That being said, if you ever tried to pull off more than one spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or more in a single round in any game I DM, you would be immediately ejected from the game--because that, my friend from the Lollypop guild, is cheating.
SilentOne
03-27-06, 10:09 PM 1 full round action =/= 1 standard action + 1 standard action. (that's a does not equal sign, btw).

1 full round action is fairly equivalent to a standard action and a move action. You can do a standard and a move in one turn, OR a full round in one turn. Not both.

So, project that to your spells. Your spell has a casting time of 1 standard action. You've now got a move action left. Since move action =/= standard action, look! no spell!

I'd like to point out in advance that, like spell levels, you can look down for actions. Since standard > move in terms of coolness (aka stuff you can do), you can move with a standard action, thus allowing double moves. You cannot do this in reverse, not even with that feat in Races of the Dragon. You know, the one that lets you use two of lower level to cast a higher level spell. You don't have two move actions. Even if you did, say from a hustle spell, any decent DM would hit you with a nerf bat so hard and fast you'd have no idea what you were trying to trick him into letting you do in the first place.

Just no. This is a blantant case of an idiotic attempt at powergaming twinkery. Now shush you, and stop refreshing this topic in the list. YOU'RE WRONG!
bleddy
03-27-06, 10:11 PM you all can not grasp what i am saying because you are all to narrow minded to just listen.
KublaiKhan
03-27-06, 10:13 PM you all can not grasp what i am saying because you are all to narrow minded to just listen.

Read my post. Read it carefully. Look in your PHB. Once you have done that, you can ask me any question you want about anything you don't understand.

Until then, kindly be quiet--the difference between a wise man and a fool is that the wise man knows when to stop talking.
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:13 PM Today 10:11 PM
bleddy you all can not grasp what i am saying because you are all to narrow minded to just listen.

than say it. put a full post expalaining just what you mean. teach all of us to cower underneath your superior logic
Almast
03-27-06, 10:14 PM I just realized he's double posted this...

Maybe it's a troll? I mean, he is getting insulting now.
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:15 PM meany! you hurt my feelings :(
dragonseth
03-27-06, 10:15 PM And do it with good English so we can understand it properly.

Edit: Quick, does fire overcome a board troll's regeneration?????
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:17 PM Thogg Crush Inferior Insistant Man! Die!
Almast
03-27-06, 10:18 PM Thogg delay rage-fueled killing spree for ice cream?
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:19 PM wheeeeeeeeeee! ice cream!
KublaiKhan
03-27-06, 10:21 PM Behold, for I am the Bard Fergus!

Watch as I cast [ from a scroll! ] the spell "Calm Emotions" on this uncouth Barbarian.

Note that this takes one standard action, and that I cannot cast my other spell, sleep. I have to wait until next round.

By the way, O Ye Lollypop Guildsman, [ by which I mean the progenator of this thread ], if you come visit my demesne, I shall prove unto you that a wizard wielding rays and ranged touch attacks can more than defeat any area-attack-wielding wizard you care to bring to the table, at an equal ECL.

Goblin liches need not apply.
dragonseth
03-27-06, 10:24 PM Even with the pure force provided by a raging Thogg, one cannot substitute an attack for a spell wherever one pleases.
Doopliss
03-27-06, 10:38 PM The rules as written [ RAW ] state that a spell can take a free, swift, immediate, standard, or full-round action.What about spells that take more than a round?
supernerd8916
03-27-06, 10:39 PM spells such as feather fall or those with quicken spell metamagic feat are considered free actions and can be performed any time

others take much longer
SilentOne
03-27-06, 10:42 PM Then it's a combination of those to meet the duration. Yay addition! Or would it be multiplication....

Ex: 1 minute casting time -> 10 full round actions. (6 seconds/round, 10 rounds, 60 seconds)
FLAvatar
03-27-06, 11:55 PM Spells with a cast time of "Immediate action" can be cast out of turn. Like all Free actions, if the casting time is a Free or Swift action it still has to occur on your turn. The only exception I can think of offhand is talking, which is generally allowed out of turn provided you keep it short, or something like Feather Fall which was changed from the PHB to an Immediate action as soon as the Immediate action was invented.

If a spell has a cast time of longer than 1 round, you are considered to be taking a full round action casting the spell in every one of your turns until it is cast.
Rulebook
03-28-06, 07:09 AM this guys not gonna rest until somebody on this board says its possible, then he's gonna use that single post as proof for his game.

seriously dude, find some other way to munchkin out.

you get one spell because you only cast once per round (barring quick type spells)

you get multiple attacks per round because you make multiple attacks a round ANYWAY. serious as a heart attack, do you honestly assume that combat is just two guys with swords, standing completely motionless, stabbing at each other every 6 seconds?

the full round attack and iterative attacks is just more attacks that have an honest ot godness chance of getting through the opponents defenses.

but if you need something to put your DM at ease ill be the one to say it, if its all youre going to listen to. Begin sarcastic humoring. Copy after this point.

"Sure, I dont see any reason why you couldnt. I mean if a fighter can strike more than once a round, and weapon attacks are his main form of fighting, a wizard can cast spells the same way. A wizards primary attack is spells right, so combat = combat is fair!"

Humoring over. okay stop copying. you have what you want.
supernerd8916
03-28-06, 08:25 AM unfortunately, rulebook is right. I conceede on grounds of hopelessnes. Butcher it if you would like. God now im peeved
kjenks
03-28-06, 10:15 AM This seems like a good thread to hijack for discussing my 8th level druid's latest favorite schtick.

My druid just made level 8, so his BAB is now +6. He has a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend and the Empower Spell feat.

In his most recent game, he cast Empower Spell + Produce Flame (damage (1d6+5)*1.5), using the rod to add Extend Spell (16 minute duration). Then the party's wizard cast Haste on all of us.

My little druid was lobbing Produce Flame three times per round (once as primary at full BAB, then the Haste attack at full BAB, then as secondary at BAB-5), inflicting about 40 points of damage per round! Since Produce Flame lets you make a touch attack, it hit every time.

Now, that's not a lot of damage from the point of view of a raging barbarian or a good level 8 archer, but it was pretty nice for a halfling druid. And I can do it from a safe distance.

Now, this isn't exactly casting spells with that extra attack from high BAB, but it shows one advantage of having a decent BAB.

Next time I get some time to buff up before a battle, I'm thinking about trying a really fun trick: Wild Shape into an octopus, then use my Natural Spell feat to cast eight Produce Flame spells so I can launch a serious barrage of fire.

(BTW, Produce Flame isn't like your usual Touch spell that dissipates when you cast another spell. As far as I know, this kind of trick only works with Produce Flame.)
Prominence
03-28-06, 11:16 AM <warning, the following is posted in humor only>

Man, wouldn't it be awesome to cast spells as BaB? Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 gets 16 BaB, so hasted he can get a good 6 spells. But wait, let's dual wield our hands to cast two spells and take ITWF / GTWF for 8 spells a round! Man, let's use this with empowered maximized poison. 80 + 4d10 con damage a round is completely OK, regardless that in 10 rounds it deals another 104 average con damage. 204 con damage should obviously be reasonable, right? Oh, but we're stuck to core. Guess fighter 2 / Wizard 8 / Eldritch Knight 10 then!
-Oh, snap, but what if we deliver these with unarmed attacks? we get to deal our unarmed attack damage too, right? 204 con damage and 8 attacks, let's throw touch of golden ice on there, and 8 fort saves for 8d4 more psosible con damage. 224 con damage is COMPLETELY BALANCED. Oh wait, why am I using poison? I have maximized enervation and Energy Drain! Let's grab sudden empoewr and sudden maximize for those tasty Energy Drains ok? We should be able to cast 4, so 3d4+12+2d4+20 negative levels! ~44 negative levels is completely reasonable. I can deliver my unarmed damage with this right? So I can use arcane strike right? Toss another 8d4 damage per hit and +8 attack on there, and they're light weapons so we'll just assume we have Snowflake War Dance for charisma to hit. We shouldn't miss anymore. (note, let's quicken some more enervations for another 2.5 negative levels putting us at 47).

So, anyway, I'm going to go wash my hands now. As for the druid, I recommend getting Fell Drain or a rod of Fell Drain out of Libri Mortis. Your spells will be dealing 1 negative level for every hit now, which is cool with Produce Flame.

Next time I get some time to buff up before a battle, I'm thinking about trying a really fun trick: Wild Shape into an octopus, then use my Natural Spell feat to cast eight Produce Flame spells so I can launch a serious barrage of fire.
Unfortunately, by RAW you can only have one up at a time I believe (the duration will be renewed though)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bleddy 03-27-06, 08:41 PM	dose a +6 base attack bonus allow you to cast two spells? any help would be nice.
Greenintern 03-27-06, 08:48 PM	Nope! Most spells take a single Standard action to cast, which means that you can only cast one per round! (Only One standard action is allowed per round). If somehow you manage to be casting quickened spell, or a spell with a "free," "immediate," or "swift" casting time (They are almost exactly the same), then you can cast your "fast spell," plus another (although you are only allowed one "fast" spell per round). I hope this was clear and useful. Good gaming!
bleddy 03-27-06, 08:55 PM	if that is the case than you can only attack once per round since attacking is a standard action right? weather or not you have a +6 or not.
Nom 03-27-06, 09:02 PM	Read the full attack rules on PH pg 143. The reason it works this way is simple. Spells usually scale in power with class level: a fireball cast by a 10th level caster is twice as powerful as one cast by a 5th level caster. In contrast, a melee attack by a 10th level fighter is not (inherently) more dangerous than one by a 5th level fighter. The difference is that the 10th level fighter gets an additional attack.
bleddy 03-27-06, 09:05 PM	thats why a wizard does not get a +6 attack bonus until 12th level
Grug the Just 03-27-06, 09:14 PM	No. No, it's not. Spells have nothing to do with BAB. Alright look, each round on your turn, you can do one of the following: A standard action and a move action (or vice versa). Two move actions. A full-round action. Making a single attack is a Standard action, known as the "Attack action". Casting a spell is (usually) a Standard action. Making multiple attacks is a full-round action, known as the "Full Attack action". It is generally separate from the "Attack action". There is no separate "Full Spell" action. There is the Quicken Spell feat which can let you cast two spells in a round. It is not automatic and it is not a separate action.
bleddy 03-27-06, 09:23 PM	a full attack action is still a full round action no matter what you call it. just say there is a full spell action wouldn't still be a full round action?
allenchan 03-27-06, 09:32 PM	a full attack action is still a full round action no matter what you call it. just say there is a full spell action wouldn't still be a full round action? No. Nonono. :banghead: They are not the same thing. Higher BAB does not equate to being able to have multiple standard actions in a round. They. Are. Completely. Different. How one can mistake "attacks" for "casting spells" is beyond me.
Lotus Crane 03-27-06, 09:33 PM	There's no such thing as a "spell action." Most spells simply have a casting time of 1 standard action, though there are a few spells (usually summons) that have a casting time of 1 full round. There is however, a difference between a standard attack and a full attack. During a standard attack you only attack once regardless of your BAB, and it takes a standard action. During a full attack you attack as many times as you have additional attacks from high BAB, and it takes a full round action. BAB only affects the number of physical attacks a character can make, not the number of spells they can cast. So no, unless you use Quicken Spell or a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action, there is normally no way to cast two spells in the same round.
dragonseth 03-27-06, 09:34 PM	I would say that if there was a 'Full Spell' action, I would ban it. Being able to cast two spells in a round without boosting one's level with Quicken Spell would be too uber to comprehend. And, the lesser BAB of the 'Full Spell' would probably not come into effect, so it is also better than a Full Attack in that respect.
ShinAkuma2 03-27-06, 09:36 PM	Dude, the answer's no. Deal with it.
bleddy 03-27-06, 09:44 PM	isnt a ranged touch attack an attack that uses your BAB, and is also a spell so the only logical thing is that only spells that rely on BAB could be cast twice with a +6 BAB
dragonseth 03-27-06, 09:46 PM	That's true, but the only way to cast more than once in a round, if both spells require standard actions to cast, is with quicken spell.
bleddy 03-27-06, 09:55 PM	that is the reason a wizard has to wait until 12th lvl to have a +6 base attack bonus at that point in time a wizard is not worried about ranged touch attacks and rays except as a last resort.
Lotus Crane 03-27-06, 09:58 PM	Actually ranged touch attack spells are usually better than save-based area spells because they're more reliable. And again, it's the spell itself that has a casting time of standard; even though one of the effects of the spell uses your BAB, it's casting a spell, not an attack action. And since you can't use more than one standard action in a round, you can't cast more than one spell. BAB can't change the number of standard actions you take in a round. Multiple physical attacks are only allowed because there's specifically a full attack action, but there is no such thing as a full spellcasting action (only some spells with a casting time of 1 full round).
dragonseth 03-27-06, 09:59 PM	I'm sorry, that is NOT the reason their BAB progression is slow. It is slow, because training as a wizard doesn't give that much swordplay skill. But, the bottom line is that you cannot equate a single attack to a standard action spell. You can't just sub them in wherever it's convenient.
risner 03-27-06, 10:03 PM	that is the reason a wizard has to wait until 12th lvl to have a +6 base attack bonus at that point in time a wizard is not worried about ranged touch attacks and rays except as a last resort. Are you for real? Do you really believe that BAB has anything to do with spell casting? Are you reading the same books everyone else is reading?
bleddy 03-27-06, 10:03 PM	a single attack, a standard action, and a spell are all on the same chart in the rule book pg 141. but what i am saying is that only and only spells that use your BAB to hit with should be affected if your BAB reaches +6.
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:06 PM	Read the full attack rules on PH pg 143. The reason it works this way is simple. Spells usually scale in power with class level: a fireball cast by a 10th level caster is twice as powerful as one cast by a 5th level caster. In contrast, a melee attack by a 10th level fighter is not (inherently) more dangerous than one by a 5th level fighter. The difference is that the 10th level fighter gets an additional attack. nom sums it up best. (most) spells scale up when you grow levels. thus, a fireball from a tenth level wizard deals more damage than one from a fifth level. except for magic, a new weapon or ability point buy every four levels, fighters dont deal extra damage. rather, theyre attacks scale a bit faster so that they can deal more damage (with more attacks) And your wizards physical attacs do grow with levels, although that is probably a moot point considering that they shouldnt be on the frontlines anyway
Lotus Crane 03-27-06, 10:06 PM	Two spells still require two standard actions, which are impossible to do in the same round. BAB can't change that. Casting a spell that involves an attack roll is not an attack action, it's casting a spell. You can't seriously think that dozens of experienced players telling you the same thing are wrong?
dragonseth 03-27-06, 10:07 PM	a single attack, a standard action, and a spell are all on the same chart in the rule book pg 141. but what i am saying is that only and only spells that use your BAB to hit with should be affected if your BAB reaches +6. And what we're saying is: none of them are
allenchan 03-27-06, 10:08 PM	a single attack, a standard action, and a spell are all on the same chart in the rule book pg 141. but what i am saying is that only and only spells that use your BAB to hit with should be affected if your BAB reaches +6. You, Sir, are an idiot.
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:09 PM	seriously dude, im not all that experienced and I know better
KublaiKhan 03-27-06, 10:09 PM	that is the reason a wizard has to wait until 12th lvl to have a +6 base attack bonus at that point in time a wizard is not worried about ranged touch attacks and rays except as a last resort. Wrong. Very, very very wrong. I do see the point you're trying to make, but it's still wrong. The rules as written [ RAW ] state that a spell can take a free, swift, immediate, standard, or full-round action. RAW state that you may take one [ 1 ] standard action per round. The only way to cast more than one spell in a round is to have a spell prepared and/or available as a free, swift, or immediate action, and to also cast one as a standard action. Base attack bonus has nothing to do with it. Now, for the reasons why: Attacking, like a fighter does, is a relatively simple procedure: the fighter puts the pointy [ or blunt ] end into the other guy. Large gestures. Some people get a bit fancy with it, but at the end of the day, it's just a question of putting metal and/or wood where the other guy doesn't want it. Mages are a bit different. They recite complex incantations that may take longer than a round to even say, and bloody well play cat's cradle with their fingers. The verbal and somatic components, no matter how good you get at putting the pointy end of a stick into the other guy, will still take X amount of time to cast. Those spells that don't require complex gestures and words are the ones you can cast as immediate, free, and swift actions--things like "Feather Fall", whose verbal component I've always thought was "Oh :censored:". The reason that mage types have a poor BAB is not for balance in terms of number of spells cast--it's because people generally can't be good at both swords and spells at the same time. That being said, if you ever tried to pull off more than one spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or more in a single round in any game I DM, you would be immediately ejected from the game--because that, my friend from the Lollypop guild, is cheating.
SilentOne 03-27-06, 10:09 PM	1 full round action =/= 1 standard action + 1 standard action. (that's a does not equal sign, btw). 1 full round action is fairly equivalent to a standard action and a move action. You can do a standard and a move in one turn, OR a full round in one turn. Not both. So, project that to your spells. Your spell has a casting time of 1 standard action. You've now got a move action left. Since move action =/= standard action, look! no spell! I'd like to point out in advance that, like spell levels, you can look down for actions. Since standard > move in terms of coolness (aka stuff you can do), you can move with a standard action, thus allowing double moves. You cannot do this in reverse, not even with that feat in Races of the Dragon. You know, the one that lets you use two of lower level to cast a higher level spell. You don't have two move actions. Even if you did, say from a hustle spell, any decent DM would hit you with a nerf bat so hard and fast you'd have no idea what you were trying to trick him into letting you do in the first place. Just no. This is a blantant case of an idiotic attempt at powergaming twinkery. Now shush you, and stop refreshing this topic in the list. YOU'RE WRONG!
bleddy 03-27-06, 10:11 PM	you all can not grasp what i am saying because you are all to narrow minded to just listen.
KublaiKhan 03-27-06, 10:13 PM	you all can not grasp what i am saying because you are all to narrow minded to just listen. Read my post. Read it carefully. Look in your PHB. Once you have done that, you can ask me any question you want about anything you don't understand. Until then, kindly be quiet--the difference between a wise man and a fool is that the wise man knows when to stop talking.
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:13 PM	Today 10:11 PM bleddy you all can not grasp what i am saying because you are all to narrow minded to just listen. than say it. put a full post expalaining just what you mean. teach all of us to cower underneath your superior logic
Almast 03-27-06, 10:14 PM	I just realized he's double posted this... Maybe it's a troll? I mean, he is getting insulting now.
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:15 PM	meany! you hurt my feelings :(
dragonseth 03-27-06, 10:15 PM	And do it with good English so we can understand it properly. Edit: Quick, does fire overcome a board troll's regeneration?????
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:17 PM	Thogg Crush Inferior Insistant Man! Die!
Almast 03-27-06, 10:18 PM	Thogg delay rage-fueled killing spree for ice cream?
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:19 PM	wheeeeeeeeeee! ice cream!
KublaiKhan 03-27-06, 10:21 PM	Behold, for I am the Bard Fergus! Watch as I cast [ from a scroll! ] the spell "Calm Emotions" on this uncouth Barbarian. Note that this takes one standard action, and that I cannot cast my other spell, sleep. I have to wait until next round. By the way, O Ye Lollypop Guildsman, [ by which I mean the progenator of this thread ], if you come visit my demesne, I shall prove unto you that a wizard wielding rays and ranged touch attacks can more than defeat any area-attack-wielding wizard you care to bring to the table, at an equal ECL. Goblin liches need not apply.
dragonseth 03-27-06, 10:24 PM	Even with the pure force provided by a raging Thogg, one cannot substitute an attack for a spell wherever one pleases.
Doopliss 03-27-06, 10:38 PM	The rules as written [ RAW ] state that a spell can take a free, swift, immediate, standard, or full-round action.What about spells that take more than a round?
supernerd8916 03-27-06, 10:39 PM	spells such as feather fall or those with quicken spell metamagic feat are considered free actions and can be performed any time others take much longer
SilentOne 03-27-06, 10:42 PM	Then it's a combination of those to meet the duration. Yay addition! Or would it be multiplication.... Ex: 1 minute casting time -> 10 full round actions. (6 seconds/round, 10 rounds, 60 seconds)
FLAvatar 03-27-06, 11:55 PM	Spells with a cast time of "Immediate action" can be cast out of turn. Like all Free actions, if the casting time is a Free or Swift action it still has to occur on your turn. The only exception I can think of offhand is talking, which is generally allowed out of turn provided you keep it short, or something like Feather Fall which was changed from the PHB to an Immediate action as soon as the Immediate action was invented. If a spell has a cast time of longer than 1 round, you are considered to be taking a full round action casting the spell in every one of your turns until it is cast.
Rulebook 03-28-06, 07:09 AM	this guys not gonna rest until somebody on this board says its possible, then he's gonna use that single post as proof for his game. seriously dude, find some other way to munchkin out. you get one spell because you only cast once per round (barring quick type spells) you get multiple attacks per round because you make multiple attacks a round ANYWAY. serious as a heart attack, do you honestly assume that combat is just two guys with swords, standing completely motionless, stabbing at each other every 6 seconds? the full round attack and iterative attacks is just more attacks that have an honest ot godness chance of getting through the opponents defenses. but if you need something to put your DM at ease ill be the one to say it, if its all youre going to listen to. Begin sarcastic humoring. Copy after this point. "Sure, I dont see any reason why you couldnt. I mean if a fighter can strike more than once a round, and weapon attacks are his main form of fighting, a wizard can cast spells the same way. A wizards primary attack is spells right, so combat = combat is fair!" Humoring over. okay stop copying. you have what you want.
supernerd8916 03-28-06, 08:25 AM	unfortunately, rulebook is right. I conceede on grounds of hopelessnes. Butcher it if you would like. God now im peeved
kjenks 03-28-06, 10:15 AM	This seems like a good thread to hijack for discussing my 8th level druid's latest favorite schtick. My druid just made level 8, so his BAB is now +6. He has a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend and the Empower Spell feat. In his most recent game, he cast Empower Spell + Produce Flame (damage (1d6+5)*1.5), using the rod to add Extend Spell (16 minute duration). Then the party's wizard cast Haste on all of us. My little druid was lobbing Produce Flame three times per round (once as primary at full BAB, then the Haste attack at full BAB, then as secondary at BAB-5), inflicting about 40 points of damage per round! Since Produce Flame lets you make a touch attack, it hit every time. Now, that's not a lot of damage from the point of view of a raging barbarian or a good level 8 archer, but it was pretty nice for a halfling druid. And I can do it from a safe distance. Now, this isn't exactly casting spells with that extra attack from high BAB, but it shows one advantage of having a decent BAB. Next time I get some time to buff up before a battle, I'm thinking about trying a really fun trick: Wild Shape into an octopus, then use my Natural Spell feat to cast eight Produce Flame spells so I can launch a serious barrage of fire. (BTW, Produce Flame isn't like your usual Touch spell that dissipates when you cast another spell. As far as I know, this kind of trick only works with Produce Flame.)
Prominence 03-28-06, 11:16 AM	<warning, the following is posted in humor only> Man, wouldn't it be awesome to cast spells as BaB? Bard 8 / Paladin 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 gets 16 BaB, so hasted he can get a good 6 spells. But wait, let's dual wield our hands to cast two spells and take ITWF / GTWF for 8 spells a round! Man, let's use this with empowered maximized poison. 80 + 4d10 con damage a round is completely OK, regardless that in 10 rounds it deals another 104 average con damage. 204 con damage should obviously be reasonable, right? Oh, but we're stuck to core. Guess fighter 2 / Wizard 8 / Eldritch Knight 10 then! -Oh, snap, but what if we deliver these with unarmed attacks? we get to deal our unarmed attack damage too, right? 204 con damage and 8 attacks, let's throw touch of golden ice on there, and 8 fort saves for 8d4 more psosible con damage. 224 con damage is COMPLETELY BALANCED. Oh wait, why am I using poison? I have maximized enervation and Energy Drain! Let's grab sudden empoewr and sudden maximize for those tasty Energy Drains ok? We should be able to cast 4, so 3d4+12+2d4+20 negative levels! ~44 negative levels is completely reasonable. I can deliver my unarmed damage with this right? So I can use arcane strike right? Toss another 8d4 damage per hit and +8 attack on there, and they're light weapons so we'll just assume we have Snowflake War Dance for charisma to hit. We shouldn't miss anymore. (note, let's quicken some more enervations for another 2.5 negative levels putting us at 47). So, anyway, I'm going to go wash my hands now. As for the druid, I recommend getting Fell Drain or a rod of Fell Drain out of Libri Mortis. Your spells will be dealing 1 negative level for every hit now, which is cool with Produce Flame. Next time I get some time to buff up before a battle, I'm thinking about trying a really fun trick: Wild Shape into an octopus, then use my Natural Spell feat to cast eight Produce Flame spells so I can launch a serious barrage of fire. Unfortunately, by RAW you can only have one up at a time I believe (the duration will be renewed though)