Casting while Prone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Casting while Prone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Shaman
01-21-07, 11:17 AM Can you do it? I was answering in the races section, claiming that dwarves make good (if non-traditional) wizards, and I was thinking about their balance feature. If tripping a spellcaster means s/he has to stand up before casting, this stability could be quite useful.
Zherog
01-21-07, 11:28 AM You can absolutely cast while prone. It's a decent tactic if you're a blaster mage and there's a bit of distance between you and your enemies, since being prone grants you a +4 AC bonus against ranged attacks.
The_Shaman
01-21-07, 11:54 AM I guess... since there aren't any rules for it... but isn't it a bit awkward with the somatic components?
Kursk
01-21-07, 01:36 PM I rule that if there are somatic components then no.
Thomas_Covenant
01-21-07, 02:34 PM I rule that if there are somatic components then no.No somatic component spells while prone?
That seems like an awfully harsh ruling.
The caster is already penalized with melee AC and movement, I can't agree on this.

Dwarves have always made solid Wizards, though.
More hps, much better saves, darkvision, overall decent choice.
The flavor is odd, but mechanics are sound.
Kursk
01-21-07, 02:51 PM No somatic component spells while prone?
That seems like an awfully harsh ruling.
The caster is already penalized with melee AC and movement, I can't agree on this.

Dwarves have always made solid Wizards, though.
More hps, much better saves, darkvision, overall decent choice.
The flavor is odd, but mechanics are sound.

The S component may require standing on one leg, etc. Unless the spell is explicit that's how I play it.
Zherog
01-21-07, 06:13 PM The S component may require standing on one leg, etc. Unless the spell is explicit that's how I play it.

Actually, no - it'll never require that.

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Neutronium_Dragon
01-21-07, 06:44 PM Yeah, 3E no longer requires a spellcaster to do a circus clown act while spellcasting. You wave/point with one hand and that's it.
runestar
01-21-07, 11:38 PM Simbul has conveniently pointed out in another thread that it is not really a very good tactic, since you cannot move while prone, so if a fighter ever manages to get in within reach(such as by charging), you are as good as screwed...

+4 to-hit and provoking AoOs left and right...:(
FeceMan
01-22-07, 01:20 AM Dimension door.
Kursk
01-22-07, 12:36 PM No somatic component spells while prone?
That seems like an awfully harsh ruling.
The caster is already penalized with melee AC and movement, I can't agree on this.

Wizards were already made FAR more powerfull than 1st or 2nd Ed. This is minor compared to the huge boost they got in 3.X.
Zherog
01-22-07, 02:22 PM Simbul has conveniently pointed out in another thread that it is not really a very good tactic, since you cannot move while prone, so if a fighter ever manages to get in within reach(such as by charging), you are as good as screwed...

+4 to-hit and provoking AoOs left and right...:(

Yeah, if something can get to you in a round, you want to seriously think of a new tactic. But there's plenty of times a wizard should use a free action to drop prone.

The encounter distance is farther away than the target can charge.
The wizard is some place the target cannot get to, such as up on a ledge

In each instance, the wizard's biggest threat at that given time is from ranged attacks. Dropping prone gives a +4 to AC vs ranged attacks. As long as the wizard thinks far enough ahead and gets up before his enemies close the distance, it can work out well.
arjomanes
01-22-07, 02:23 PM A prone spellcaster will also get a -4 on his touch attack rolls.
Zherog
01-22-07, 02:55 PM And so therefore shouldn't use those spells. :D
BW0222
01-22-07, 03:17 PM Folks,

Nothing in the rules prevents using S component (or any other) spells when prone. Those that think that you need to be should note that one can cast while sitting in a boat, riding a horse, sitting in the bar, knelling behind some boxes, swimming, sitting on a flying carpet, etc. -- possibly needing the appropriate concentration check for violent movement (if the mount was moving or the boat was in rough seas, etc.).

As for it being a good tactic to volentarily go prone... it isn't.

Few encounters in dungeons take place at anymore than 30-40 feet. Given doorways, hallways, limited size of most rooms, etc. and the general size of your average battlemap going prone just isn't a tactic you want to try. Even in large rooms, say 100' across, a double move or run gets folks really close. Outdoors encounter distances aren't typically more than 100-200 ft. Again, due to battlemap size, but also due to terrain -- hills, rocks, trees, etc. If you can see something, typically it can run up to you.

Getting caught prone is of course almost a death sentance. +4 to hit, inability to move (even 5' crawl provokes an AoO), you provoke when casting, and of course you provoke when standing and (possibly) again while moving away -- which likely won't get you far.

Typically casting when prone is done in despiration when tripped, greased, asleep, or unconcious and then healled again, etc. You find yourself prone, next to something, and you have little choice but to try casting defensively and hoping you kill it before it kills you.
TheDarkLord
01-22-07, 03:30 PM Wizards were already made FAR more powerfull than 1st or 2nd Ed. This is minor compared to the huge boost they got in 3.X.

Really? I still have the 2nd Edition Magic Compendiums 1-4 somewhere here. When I used to play a mage in second addition I freakin' ruled. Where you got the Idea of such a large power boost i'll never know, explain this to me?
Kursk
01-22-07, 04:18 PM Really? I still have the 2nd Edition Magic Compendiums 1-4 somewhere here. When I used to play a mage in second addition I freakin' ruled. Where you got the Idea of such a large power boost i'll never know, explain this to me?

Just look at the rule changes and I'm confident you can figure it out.
Zherog
01-22-07, 05:01 PM Few encounters in dungeons take place at anymore than 30-40 feet. Given doorways, hallways, limited size of most rooms, etc. and the general size of your average battlemap going prone just isn't a tactic you want to try. Even in large rooms, say 100' across, a double move or run gets folks really close. Outdoors encounter distances aren't typically more than 100-200 ft. Again, due to battlemap size, but also due to terrain -- hills, rocks, trees, etc. If you can see something, typically it can run up to you.

Wow - all your encounters take place in a dungeon? How sad...

But let's take your 100' room. Getting close to the wizard doesn't matter. If the enemy is 100' away, a double move for a typical heavy-armored fighter moves them 40' - still more than one round away. A double move for a medium/light armored fighters moves them 60' - meaning you can still stand from prone at your leasure.

I never said having your caster drop prone was something you always wanted to do. I just said there are times when it's beneficial. Your 100' room is one instance where it may be beneficial.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Shaman 01-21-07, 11:17 AM	Can you do it? I was answering in the races section, claiming that dwarves make good (if non-traditional) wizards, and I was thinking about their balance feature. If tripping a spellcaster means s/he has to stand up before casting, this stability could be quite useful.
Zherog 01-21-07, 11:28 AM	You can absolutely cast while prone. It's a decent tactic if you're a blaster mage and there's a bit of distance between you and your enemies, since being prone grants you a +4 AC bonus against ranged attacks.
The_Shaman 01-21-07, 11:54 AM	I guess... since there aren't any rules for it... but isn't it a bit awkward with the somatic components?
Kursk 01-21-07, 01:36 PM	I rule that if there are somatic components then no.
Thomas_Covenant 01-21-07, 02:34 PM	I rule that if there are somatic components then no.No somatic component spells while prone? That seems like an awfully harsh ruling. The caster is already penalized with melee AC and movement, I can't agree on this. Dwarves have always made solid Wizards, though. More hps, much better saves, darkvision, overall decent choice. The flavor is odd, but mechanics are sound.
Kursk 01-21-07, 02:51 PM	No somatic component spells while prone? That seems like an awfully harsh ruling. The caster is already penalized with melee AC and movement, I can't agree on this. Dwarves have always made solid Wizards, though. More hps, much better saves, darkvision, overall decent choice. The flavor is odd, but mechanics are sound. The S component may require standing on one leg, etc. Unless the spell is explicit that's how I play it.
Zherog 01-21-07, 06:13 PM	The S component may require standing on one leg, etc. Unless the spell is explicit that's how I play it. Actually, no - it'll never require that. Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-21-07, 06:44 PM	Yeah, 3E no longer requires a spellcaster to do a circus clown act while spellcasting. You wave/point with one hand and that's it.
runestar 01-21-07, 11:38 PM	Simbul has conveniently pointed out in another thread that it is not really a very good tactic, since you cannot move while prone, so if a fighter ever manages to get in within reach(such as by charging), you are as good as screwed... +4 to-hit and provoking AoOs left and right...:(
FeceMan 01-22-07, 01:20 AM	Dimension door.
Kursk 01-22-07, 12:36 PM	No somatic component spells while prone? That seems like an awfully harsh ruling. The caster is already penalized with melee AC and movement, I can't agree on this. Wizards were already made FAR more powerfull than 1st or 2nd Ed. This is minor compared to the huge boost they got in 3.X.
Zherog 01-22-07, 02:22 PM	Simbul has conveniently pointed out in another thread that it is not really a very good tactic, since you cannot move while prone, so if a fighter ever manages to get in within reach(such as by charging), you are as good as screwed... +4 to-hit and provoking AoOs left and right...:( Yeah, if something can get to you in a round, you want to seriously think of a new tactic. But there's plenty of times a wizard should use a free action to drop prone. The encounter distance is farther away than the target can charge. The wizard is some place the target cannot get to, such as up on a ledge In each instance, the wizard's biggest threat at that given time is from ranged attacks. Dropping prone gives a +4 to AC vs ranged attacks. As long as the wizard thinks far enough ahead and gets up before his enemies close the distance, it can work out well.
arjomanes 01-22-07, 02:23 PM	A prone spellcaster will also get a -4 on his touch attack rolls.
Zherog 01-22-07, 02:55 PM	And so therefore shouldn't use those spells. :D
BW0222 01-22-07, 03:17 PM	Folks, Nothing in the rules prevents using S component (or any other) spells when prone. Those that think that you need to be should note that one can cast while sitting in a boat, riding a horse, sitting in the bar, knelling behind some boxes, swimming, sitting on a flying carpet, etc. -- possibly needing the appropriate concentration check for violent movement (if the mount was moving or the boat was in rough seas, etc.). As for it being a good tactic to volentarily go prone... it isn't. Few encounters in dungeons take place at anymore than 30-40 feet. Given doorways, hallways, limited size of most rooms, etc. and the general size of your average battlemap going prone just isn't a tactic you want to try. Even in large rooms, say 100' across, a double move or run gets folks really close. Outdoors encounter distances aren't typically more than 100-200 ft. Again, due to battlemap size, but also due to terrain -- hills, rocks, trees, etc. If you can see something, typically it can run up to you. Getting caught prone is of course almost a death sentance. +4 to hit, inability to move (even 5' crawl provokes an AoO), you provoke when casting, and of course you provoke when standing and (possibly) again while moving away -- which likely won't get you far. Typically casting when prone is done in despiration when tripped, greased, asleep, or unconcious and then healled again, etc. You find yourself prone, next to something, and you have little choice but to try casting defensively and hoping you kill it before it kills you.
TheDarkLord 01-22-07, 03:30 PM	Wizards were already made FAR more powerfull than 1st or 2nd Ed. This is minor compared to the huge boost they got in 3.X. Really? I still have the 2nd Edition Magic Compendiums 1-4 somewhere here. When I used to play a mage in second addition I freakin' ruled. Where you got the Idea of such a large power boost i'll never know, explain this to me?
Kursk 01-22-07, 04:18 PM	Really? I still have the 2nd Edition Magic Compendiums 1-4 somewhere here. When I used to play a mage in second addition I freakin' ruled. Where you got the Idea of such a large power boost i'll never know, explain this to me? Just look at the rule changes and I'm confident you can figure it out.
Zherog 01-22-07, 05:01 PM	Few encounters in dungeons take place at anymore than 30-40 feet. Given doorways, hallways, limited size of most rooms, etc. and the general size of your average battlemap going prone just isn't a tactic you want to try. Even in large rooms, say 100' across, a double move or run gets folks really close. Outdoors encounter distances aren't typically more than 100-200 ft. Again, due to battlemap size, but also due to terrain -- hills, rocks, trees, etc. If you can see something, typically it can run up to you. Wow - all your encounters take place in a dungeon? How sad... But let's take your 100' room. Getting close to the wizard doesn't matter. If the enemy is 100' away, a double move for a typical heavy-armored fighter moves them 40' - still more than one round away. A double move for a medium/light armored fighters moves them 60' - meaning you can still stand from prone at your leasure. I never said having your caster drop prone was something you always wanted to do. I just said there are times when it's beneficial. Your 100' room is one instance where it may be beneficial.