Castles [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Castles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
penguin_16
07-27-05, 12:25 PM Hey

Im in a campaign and am thinking of building a castle. However my DM hassaid it would cost a million gp for a keep. Surely this is overpriced? I thought you had to work it out from measurements and stuff like that?

For that price I cant see the advantages?

Can someone clear this up?

Phil
Vahenir
07-27-05, 12:34 PM According to Wizards of the Coast - the cost of a castle or other building depends on how many rooms it is, what it's made of, how big it is, etc.

Try picking up the Stronghold Builder's Guide - it's pretty cheap nowadays.
Pryrates
07-27-05, 12:35 PM check out page 101 in the DMG. A Keep is 150,000gp, a Castle is 500,000 gp, and a Huge Castle is 1,000,000 gp, adding a moat with a bridge is another 50,000gp. So it all depends on what type of fortification you want.
NeueRegel
07-27-05, 12:43 PM This isn't going to help you one bit, but... An answer "can" be had.

I just phoned a friend that still has the AD&D books. Pages 106-8 of the Dungeoun Masters Guide has very specific charts for the time and costs of building a castle, down to the gp cost of every little thing. We're talking 2000gp for a tower; 1000gp for a section of wall; and 2 gp for an arrow slit. And descriptions of everything on the chart, parts of walls that have names you've never even heard of. (PS: I made those numbers up, so don't use them).

Whether this type of thing was ever re-done for 3.5, I haven't the foggiest. But you might be able to find one of the old hardcovers DMG, for AD&D 2nd Edition, in a flea market or something.

Edit: Two of you beat me to the punch. But I was looking at the sentence of his, "I thought you had to make measurements". I kinda got the feeling that he wanted to "design" his castle, like we did, in the old days.

I'd feel cheated and dirty, just handing over a million gp, and saying, "I have a castle!". It wouldn't mean anything to me, as a player. But having it all planned out, on graph paper, every little detail, every homebrewed defense, and HOURS of work and calculator-tape... Well, we found it rewarding, at least...

Good Luck

NeueRegel
Iver Gearsham
07-27-05, 04:11 PM Things like this help when makeing a building.

Transmute Rock to Mud is a permanent effect so at anytime the original caster can use Dispell Magic to turn it back to rock so at your mountan side you find a cliff face make a sluce to chanal the mud in to a large series of molds of interconectable blocks.
As you can only go ten feet deep in to the rock you shape it as a veritical chimminy over your sluce gravity does alot of the work to move the mud to the molds then you cast Unseen Servant Hord to scrape the rest of the mud to the molds and smooth it out.
Then when its all setteled in the molds you cast Dispell Magic and you have excellent stone blocks that Your unseen servants Team up to move then chislel your mark on them so they will never again be effected by Transmute Rock to Mud.
Reset the molds while the first USH works with another USH and do it again.

To move the blocks cast Suspension a fourth lvl spell that levitates thousand lbs. per lvl for days per lvl Cast that on a platform for an airbarge.

Why should you bother? An 9th lvl caster makes 27,000 gp worth of superior stone blocks per casting.
This was calculated by taking the value given in the Stronghold Builders Guide Book for ten ft. by ten ft. by 2 ft. thick free standing wall value of 300 gp. Then dividing up the effected cubic feet from Transmute Rock to Mud for how many wall sections that would be made (90 walls) times 300 = 27,000 gp. Sold at half value thats 13,500 gp still a healthy sum of cash for all those wizardly needs. or you could just build your own tower.
Pei-Pe
07-27-05, 04:16 PM Man, that's an interesting way to run a quarry. How do you tamp out the air-bubbles in the mud?
Also, if it's permanent, can you dispell the effect in theory the mud is not held as such by magic?
Iver Gearsham
07-27-05, 04:30 PM Any spell effect with Permanet for duration can be dispelled with Dispell Magic.
Air bubbles can be removed by the Servants moving in and vibrating in each mold.
I thought it would be a fun way to make a town and fortress.
penguin_16
07-27-05, 05:32 PM Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. Ill pick up the stronghold builders guide then.

I kinda got the feeling that he wanted to "design" his castle, like we did, in the old days.

Thats what I want to do! So will it have the info in the AD&D Dungeon masters guide? Cos my friends dad has the old hardback version of that.

Phil
kalstrand
07-27-05, 05:58 PM You can also try to find the AD&D Castle Guide.
Jaid
07-27-05, 07:08 PM the SBG is probably your best bet though, since it is updated to 3.0

the 3.0 to 3.5 revision is relatively easy to update. basically, you just fix any loopholes you see, apply any popular houserules, change DR, and there it is.

2nd edition ==> 3rd edition, on the other hand, would not go quite so easily.

for one thing, second edition didn't worry about balancing costs. core rules in 2nd edition you couldn't even buy most of the basic components for making magic items, let alone buying magical items (although i would have to say most people probably didn't play that way).

but anyways, what that means is that in 2nd edition, the only thing to do with your money was build a fortress and hire soldiers and such... there wasn't really anything to buy with your money (or at least, that was what was assumed when it was designed). although, having said that, most of the designers of various 2nd edition adventures, modules, and campaign settings seem to have assumed you can buy stuff. go figure. but anyways, go through older editions and see how much GP you could come out of adventuring with... it's just plain crazy.
fawr
07-29-05, 08:59 AM I've been a castle fan for a while.

1st edition that stuff is in the DMG.
2nd edition they released a book on castles.
3rd edition they released the stronghold builders guildbook.

The 1st edition was all about historical acuracy and made you pay the 2cp for every arrowslit or wooden door. The time taken to build castles also discoraged anyone except elves from doing it. But for 4 or 5 pages it was quite good

The 2nd edition one was the first I got and so I for me its the standard I judged the others against. It contained a lot more options about building castles and introduced the ability to buy a whole round tower or gatekeep component individually.

The stronghold builders guidebook is similar (but with buildings based on function, so you buy stables or gaurdposts) but focuses more on how magic can influence the process. This makes buildings often cost a lot more gold, but you could (in theory) build something that can protect you against etherial intruders or can fly/float/teleport. I don't think it requires much conversion for 3.5 either.
CzarGarrett
07-29-05, 09:02 AM If possible, you might want to try and find a half-built stronghold of sorts, clean it out/take it over, and then repair it.

It would probably be cheaper and more effective than building one from scratch.
Jshock_75
07-29-05, 09:24 AM Man, that's an interesting way to run a quarry. How do you tamp out the air-bubbles in the mud?
Earthquake.
Pei-Pe
07-29-05, 09:55 AM While not a castle per se, I found that Daern's instant fortress, with the proper application of certain spells makes for a handy substitute.

First off, the thing is unfurnished as printed, so I added the spell effect of Leomund's Tiny Hut for rough, basic furniture and the unseen servant.

I added Mordenkanen's Private Sanctum for some privacy (I believe permanency was involved)

and I added Dimensional Lock for more privacy and to keep out the rabble-rousers form other dimensions.

After a small quest for materials, i found a Wizard that could grant my tower the ability to regenerate damage (thus removing that pesky Wish for repairs)

We jokingly refer to this as my Daern's Instant Fortress of Solitude. Yes, it's a high level game, but we played them up from first level with literally nothing to our names. (no starting equipment except for a random piece of mundane equipment), my first weapon was a sharp rock. Still have it in a case, for old time's sake.
CzarGarrett
07-29-05, 12:44 PM Yes, it's a high level game, but we played them up from first level with literally nothing to our names. (no starting equipment except for a random piece of mundane equipment), my first weapon was a sharp rock. Still have it in a case, for old time's sake.

You started as cavemen?

Wow. I would hav expected a bit of clothes, a club, dagger, or quarterstaff, and some food at a minimum.

Kudos to you for being able to start from such a position.
Pei-Pe
07-29-05, 01:07 PM Well, there were the clothes we had on our backs. the concept was the village we came from had been attacked by Giants, bent on smashing the village flat. So, clothes and one random item.
Vahenir
07-29-05, 01:23 PM I've played a game like that. The PCs were all escaped slaves. My character had nothing but a loincloth and a piece of sharp flint fixed to the end of a branch as a makeshift (read: Improvised) spear for over a full level.
Casanovious
07-29-05, 01:35 PM I love them but really, I wonder how important would they be in a world with magic? Think about it - if your world is one where magic is common or even uncommon then a standard castle would not provide enough protection unless it was also protected from magic - and I could see that costing a good bit. Ditto for ships. In D&D the typical warship is like a galley. That sounds logical assuming the cannon has not been invented but what about in campains where casters are not that rare? Bunching all those men together in a ship that gets in close seems nuts. Fleets would use a lot of small ships instead. If magic weapons can be bougt in a magic shop and casters hired to cast spells, wouldn't the extremely wealthy upper class live in a magically protected homes - castles or not - and use perhaps magically aided ships? Just a thought.
Vahenir
07-29-05, 02:10 PM Mini-Rant (completely opinionated statements follow):

D&D has ruined itself. Meaning, D&D has unzipped and gone tinkle all over its primary sources and inspirations. Robert Howard, Tolkien, Moorcock, and the like. World-ending magic was not commonplace in any of those settings. And even in previous editions of D&D, magic was assumed to be fairly mundane if common, and rare if extraordinary.

Even the 3.0 DMG (not sure about 3.5) made a point of claiming that PC classes are supposed to be rare. Meaning - there shouldn't BE a lot of spellcasters running around... at all.

But then what does WotC do? In the very same book it lists the numbers of each PC class's likelihood to be found in a given type of settlement. Ludicrous!

By the numbers, there should be hundreds of thousands of Wizards in the world - which means you probably have at lest tens of thousands in the high-to-epic levels.

Add Sorcerers, Clerics, Favoured Souls, Warlocks, etc to that list and it gets ridiculous.

WotC has buried itself in spellcasting. Everything is a spell. Every single thing in the world can be taken care of with spells. Magic does everything and the characters equate to nothing more than 'the people using the magic.'

So no, in the current 'fashion' of D&D - Castles don't make a damn bit of sense, because it's so friggin' easy to get ahold of a ludicrous amount of spells and magical objects.

Castles make sense in the Young Kingdoms. Castles make sense in Hyborea. Castles make sense in Middle-earth.

Castles make sense in the sources from which D&D was born, and that's why D&D still has castles. But if you analyze it, if you use even a modicum of logic - it becomes clear that WotC has so deeply buried itself in absurdities and useless crap that half of the fun of the sword & sorcery/fantasy genre has been killed.

Way to go WotC.

(Note, this was not a WotC-bash. I have many good things to say about them as well. But this is an issue where I really detest what WotC has done.)
Jaid
07-29-05, 03:15 PM actually, using the SBG you can make a fairly magic-resistant castle (there's no such thing as magic proof, so don't even bother trying).

however, as was noted, it is bloody expensive. and not necessarily that useful to have one. which is why there's a feat in the SBG that gives you a ton of money... usable only on a stronghold. yippee. and if you don't have magic that helps you build it, then the stronghold is going to take a heck of a long time to build, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
penguin_16 07-27-05, 12:25 PM	Hey Im in a campaign and am thinking of building a castle. However my DM hassaid it would cost a million gp for a keep. Surely this is overpriced? I thought you had to work it out from measurements and stuff like that? For that price I cant see the advantages? Can someone clear this up? Phil
Vahenir 07-27-05, 12:34 PM	According to Wizards of the Coast - the cost of a castle or other building depends on how many rooms it is, what it's made of, how big it is, etc. Try picking up the Stronghold Builder's Guide - it's pretty cheap nowadays.
Pryrates 07-27-05, 12:35 PM	check out page 101 in the DMG. A Keep is 150,000gp, a Castle is 500,000 gp, and a Huge Castle is 1,000,000 gp, adding a moat with a bridge is another 50,000gp. So it all depends on what type of fortification you want.
NeueRegel 07-27-05, 12:43 PM	This isn't going to help you one bit, but... An answer "can" be had. I just phoned a friend that still has the AD&D books. Pages 106-8 of the Dungeoun Masters Guide has very specific charts for the time and costs of building a castle, down to the gp cost of every little thing. We're talking 2000gp for a tower; 1000gp for a section of wall; and 2 gp for an arrow slit. And descriptions of everything on the chart, parts of walls that have names you've never even heard of. (PS: I made those numbers up, so don't use them). Whether this type of thing was ever re-done for 3.5, I haven't the foggiest. But you might be able to find one of the old hardcovers DMG, for AD&D 2nd Edition, in a flea market or something. Edit: Two of you beat me to the punch. But I was looking at the sentence of his, "I thought you had to make measurements". I kinda got the feeling that he wanted to "design" his castle, like we did, in the old days. I'd feel cheated and dirty, just handing over a million gp, and saying, "I have a castle!". It wouldn't mean anything to me, as a player. But having it all planned out, on graph paper, every little detail, every homebrewed defense, and HOURS of work and calculator-tape... Well, we found it rewarding, at least... Good Luck NeueRegel
Iver Gearsham 07-27-05, 04:11 PM	Things like this help when makeing a building. Transmute Rock to Mud is a permanent effect so at anytime the original caster can use Dispell Magic to turn it back to rock so at your mountan side you find a cliff face make a sluce to chanal the mud in to a large series of molds of interconectable blocks. As you can only go ten feet deep in to the rock you shape it as a veritical chimminy over your sluce gravity does alot of the work to move the mud to the molds then you cast Unseen Servant Hord to scrape the rest of the mud to the molds and smooth it out. Then when its all setteled in the molds you cast Dispell Magic and you have excellent stone blocks that Your unseen servants Team up to move then chislel your mark on them so they will never again be effected by Transmute Rock to Mud. Reset the molds while the first USH works with another USH and do it again. To move the blocks cast Suspension a fourth lvl spell that levitates thousand lbs. per lvl for days per lvl Cast that on a platform for an airbarge. Why should you bother? An 9th lvl caster makes 27,000 gp worth of superior stone blocks per casting. This was calculated by taking the value given in the Stronghold Builders Guide Book for ten ft. by ten ft. by 2 ft. thick free standing wall value of 300 gp. Then dividing up the effected cubic feet from Transmute Rock to Mud for how many wall sections that would be made (90 walls) times 300 = 27,000 gp. Sold at half value thats 13,500 gp still a healthy sum of cash for all those wizardly needs. or you could just build your own tower.
Pei-Pe 07-27-05, 04:16 PM	Man, that's an interesting way to run a quarry. How do you tamp out the air-bubbles in the mud? Also, if it's permanent, can you dispell the effect in theory the mud is not held as such by magic?
Iver Gearsham 07-27-05, 04:30 PM	Any spell effect with Permanet for duration can be dispelled with Dispell Magic. Air bubbles can be removed by the Servants moving in and vibrating in each mold. I thought it would be a fun way to make a town and fortress.
penguin_16 07-27-05, 05:32 PM	Hi, Thanks for all the replies. Ill pick up the stronghold builders guide then. I kinda got the feeling that he wanted to "design" his castle, like we did, in the old days. Thats what I want to do! So will it have the info in the AD&D Dungeon masters guide? Cos my friends dad has the old hardback version of that. Phil
kalstrand 07-27-05, 05:58 PM	You can also try to find the AD&D Castle Guide.
Jaid 07-27-05, 07:08 PM	the SBG is probably your best bet though, since it is updated to 3.0 the 3.0 to 3.5 revision is relatively easy to update. basically, you just fix any loopholes you see, apply any popular houserules, change DR, and there it is. 2nd edition ==> 3rd edition, on the other hand, would not go quite so easily. for one thing, second edition didn't worry about balancing costs. core rules in 2nd edition you couldn't even buy most of the basic components for making magic items, let alone buying magical items (although i would have to say most people probably didn't play that way). but anyways, what that means is that in 2nd edition, the only thing to do with your money was build a fortress and hire soldiers and such... there wasn't really anything to buy with your money (or at least, that was what was assumed when it was designed). although, having said that, most of the designers of various 2nd edition adventures, modules, and campaign settings seem to have assumed you can buy stuff. go figure. but anyways, go through older editions and see how much GP you could come out of adventuring with... it's just plain crazy.
fawr 07-29-05, 08:59 AM	I've been a castle fan for a while. 1st edition that stuff is in the DMG. 2nd edition they released a book on castles. 3rd edition they released the stronghold builders guildbook. The 1st edition was all about historical acuracy and made you pay the 2cp for every arrowslit or wooden door. The time taken to build castles also discoraged anyone except elves from doing it. But for 4 or 5 pages it was quite good The 2nd edition one was the first I got and so I for me its the standard I judged the others against. It contained a lot more options about building castles and introduced the ability to buy a whole round tower or gatekeep component individually. The stronghold builders guidebook is similar (but with buildings based on function, so you buy stables or gaurdposts) but focuses more on how magic can influence the process. This makes buildings often cost a lot more gold, but you could (in theory) build something that can protect you against etherial intruders or can fly/float/teleport. I don't think it requires much conversion for 3.5 either.
CzarGarrett 07-29-05, 09:02 AM	If possible, you might want to try and find a half-built stronghold of sorts, clean it out/take it over, and then repair it. It would probably be cheaper and more effective than building one from scratch.
Jshock_75 07-29-05, 09:24 AM	Man, that's an interesting way to run a quarry. How do you tamp out the air-bubbles in the mud? Earthquake.
Pei-Pe 07-29-05, 09:55 AM	While not a castle per se, I found that Daern's instant fortress, with the proper application of certain spells makes for a handy substitute. First off, the thing is unfurnished as printed, so I added the spell effect of Leomund's Tiny Hut for rough, basic furniture and the unseen servant. I added Mordenkanen's Private Sanctum for some privacy (I believe permanency was involved) and I added Dimensional Lock for more privacy and to keep out the rabble-rousers form other dimensions. After a small quest for materials, i found a Wizard that could grant my tower the ability to regenerate damage (thus removing that pesky Wish for repairs) We jokingly refer to this as my Daern's Instant Fortress of Solitude. Yes, it's a high level game, but we played them up from first level with literally nothing to our names. (no starting equipment except for a random piece of mundane equipment), my first weapon was a sharp rock. Still have it in a case, for old time's sake.
CzarGarrett 07-29-05, 12:44 PM	Yes, it's a high level game, but we played them up from first level with literally nothing to our names. (no starting equipment except for a random piece of mundane equipment), my first weapon was a sharp rock. Still have it in a case, for old time's sake. You started as cavemen? Wow. I would hav expected a bit of clothes, a club, dagger, or quarterstaff, and some food at a minimum. Kudos to you for being able to start from such a position.
Pei-Pe 07-29-05, 01:07 PM	Well, there were the clothes we had on our backs. the concept was the village we came from had been attacked by Giants, bent on smashing the village flat. So, clothes and one random item.
Vahenir 07-29-05, 01:23 PM	I've played a game like that. The PCs were all escaped slaves. My character had nothing but a loincloth and a piece of sharp flint fixed to the end of a branch as a makeshift (read: Improvised) spear for over a full level.
Casanovious 07-29-05, 01:35 PM	I love them but really, I wonder how important would they be in a world with magic? Think about it - if your world is one where magic is common or even uncommon then a standard castle would not provide enough protection unless it was also protected from magic - and I could see that costing a good bit. Ditto for ships. In D&D the typical warship is like a galley. That sounds logical assuming the cannon has not been invented but what about in campains where casters are not that rare? Bunching all those men together in a ship that gets in close seems nuts. Fleets would use a lot of small ships instead. If magic weapons can be bougt in a magic shop and casters hired to cast spells, wouldn't the extremely wealthy upper class live in a magically protected homes - castles or not - and use perhaps magically aided ships? Just a thought.
Vahenir 07-29-05, 02:10 PM	Mini-Rant (completely opinionated statements follow): D&D has ruined itself. Meaning, D&D has unzipped and gone tinkle all over its primary sources and inspirations. Robert Howard, Tolkien, Moorcock, and the like. World-ending magic was not commonplace in any of those settings. And even in previous editions of D&D, magic was assumed to be fairly mundane if common, and rare if extraordinary. Even the 3.0 DMG (not sure about 3.5) made a point of claiming that PC classes are supposed to be rare. Meaning - there shouldn't BE a lot of spellcasters running around... at all. But then what does WotC do? In the very same book it lists the numbers of each PC class's likelihood to be found in a given type of settlement. Ludicrous! By the numbers, there should be hundreds of thousands of Wizards in the world - which means you probably have at lest tens of thousands in the high-to-epic levels. Add Sorcerers, Clerics, Favoured Souls, Warlocks, etc to that list and it gets ridiculous. WotC has buried itself in spellcasting. Everything is a spell. Every single thing in the world can be taken care of with spells. Magic does everything and the characters equate to nothing more than 'the people using the magic.' So no, in the current 'fashion' of D&D - Castles don't make a damn bit of sense, because it's so friggin' easy to get ahold of a ludicrous amount of spells and magical objects. Castles make sense in the Young Kingdoms. Castles make sense in Hyborea. Castles make sense in Middle-earth. Castles make sense in the sources from which D&D was born, and that's why D&D still has castles. But if you analyze it, if you use even a modicum of logic - it becomes clear that WotC has so deeply buried itself in absurdities and useless crap that half of the fun of the sword & sorcery/fantasy genre has been killed. Way to go WotC. (Note, this was not a WotC-bash. I have many good things to say about them as well. But this is an issue where I really detest what WotC has done.)
Jaid 07-29-05, 03:15 PM	actually, using the SBG you can make a fairly magic-resistant castle (there's no such thing as magic proof, so don't even bother trying). however, as was noted, it is bloody expensive. and not necessarily that useful to have one. which is why there's a feat in the SBG that gives you a ton of money... usable only on a stronghold. yippee. and if you don't have magic that helps you build it, then the stronghold is going to take a heck of a long time to build, too.