Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 12:45 PM	Can a CDG be performed with a torch? According to the PHB (127) a torch can be used as an improvised bludg weapon dealing damage equal to a gauntlet. PHB (113) says that a gauntlet is an UN-armed attack and NOT a melee weapon (which is a pre-requisite for a CDG). And on a final note - if the torch IS able to CDG and the torch is lit...does the fire damage count toward the CDG damage?
mvincent 12-19-07, 01:02 PM	Can a CDG be performed with a torch?Yup According to the PHB (127) a torch can be used as an improvised bludg weapon dealing damage equal to a gauntlet. PHB (113) says that a gauntlet is an UN-armed attack and NOT a melee weapon (which is a pre-requisite for a CDG).The rules say: "If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage." I take that to mean that the torch is still a weapon (the gauntlet is referenced only for damage scaling). And on a final note - if the torch IS able to CDG and the torch is lit...does the fire damage count toward the CDG damage?Yes. So you can CdG a troll with a torch... the Fort save will only be DC 11 though.
rironin 12-19-07, 01:10 PM	Yes. So you can CdG a troll with a torch... the Fort save will only be DC 11 though.Wouldn't it be DC 12, because the attack is automatically a critical hit? The fire damage should be multiplied because it isn't damage dice, no? I'm also interested in this question b/c of the lesser weapon crystals that add a point of energy damage.
dman11235 12-19-07, 01:15 PM	You can deliver a CdG with a gauntlet. Same as any melee weapon.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 01:19 PM	Yup The rules say: "If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage." I take that to mean that the torch is still a weapon (the gauntlet is referenced only for damage scaling). CDG specifically states one must use a melee weapon. A torch is certainly not on the list of a melee weapon. It is not built to BE a weapon. A club could be uses because it is purpose built to accomplish such a task...but not so with something designed to be light and used for a light source. According to RAW a torch cannot be used to CDG because it is NOT a melee weapon.
Traken134 12-19-07, 01:21 PM	<I fail at reading>
mvincent 12-19-07, 01:21 PM	Wouldn't it be DC 12, because the attack is automatically a critical hit? Good point. I concur.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 01:21 PM	You can deliver a CdG with a gauntlet. Same as any melee weapon. Gauntlet as listed is under (phb 116) is used in an UN armed attack which is NOT a melee weapon as required by CDG NO you cannot use a gauntlet to CDG.
mvincent 12-19-07, 01:22 PM	CDG specifically states one must use a melee weapon.Improvised weapons count.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 01:26 PM	Improvised weapons count. I disagree based on the fact that melee weapons are specifically designed AS weapons and improvised are not. I could use my coffee cup as an improvised weapon but killing someone with it would present problems. I doubt my coffee cup is harder than someone's skull. I could see a tire iron coming into play but that is more of a weapon than a tool IMO I suppose it depends on the implement being used to improvise but I do not think a torch or a gauntlet could be used in such a fashion. Again it appears to be up to the DM to decide based on some common sense.
rironin 12-19-07, 01:29 PM	CDG specifically states one must use a melee weapon. A torch is certainly not on the list of a melee weapon. It is not built to BE a weapon. A club could be uses because it is purpose built to accomplish such a task...but not so with something designed to be light and used for a light source. According to RAW a torch cannot be used to CDG because it is NOT a melee weapon.Ohhh boy. I've seen this discussion before; it's not pretty :) If I recall correctly, the discussion came down to whether "melee" was a special designation given to a specific list of weapons, or whether "melee" just told you that you used it hand-to-hand as opposed to "ranged". Personally, I go with the latter. A torch is an improvised weapon, but it's certainly an improvised melee weapon. You hit people with it - it isn't ranged. The melee/ranged thing is pretty much discrete. A weapon is one or the other or both - there is no "neither" designation for improvised weapons. Drawing a line with all weapons not on the list in the PHB is kind of ridiculous. A lead pipe is pretty much a light mace. To suggest that you can't bash someone's skull in with a lead pipe if they're helpless and you take your time to bash'em real good is pretty silly, no? One random quote that might help is from the d20srd.org description for arrows: "An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2)." It's not about whether an improvised weapon is on the list of melee weapons or not (since it's improvised, obviously, it's not on the list). It's about how the improvised weapon is used. If used as a melee weapon, treat it as a melee weapon. If used as a ranged weapon, treat it as a ranged weapon.
rironin 12-19-07, 01:35 PM	I disagree based on the fact that melee weapons are specifically designed AS weapons and improvised are not. I could use my coffee cup as an improvised weapon but killing someone with it would present problems. I doubt my coffee cup is harder than someone's skull. I could see a tire iron coming into play but that is more of a weapon than a tool IMO I suppose it depends on the implement being used to improvise but I do not think a torch or a gauntlet could be used in such a fashion. Again it appears to be up to the DM to decide based on some common sense.Actually, I would say that far more objects can be used to coup de grace than as really good improvised weapons. If someone absolutely had to use a coffee cup as an improvised weapon, I would probably rule it as a ranged weapon that deals a ridiculously low amount of damage (like 1d2-10 or something, to prevent all but the mightiest of characters from getting to use their strength bonus). Bad improvised weapons just do less damage. This makes their coup de graces a lot weaker. But there's no reason to say that you can hurt someone with it in normal combat but not coup de grace them, in my opinion. With the coffee cup, I'd be pretty scared to fight someone wielding nothing but a mug. However, if someone were lying there helpless and I had to kill them with my trusty mug? I can actually think of a few ways (although the most obvious ones require you to break the mug into sharp pieces first). The point is, I have a hard time imagining how nearly any sturdy object (sturdy and dangerous enough to be used as an improvised weapon in the first place, at least) couldn't be used to hurt someone in a bad way if the person was helpless and the wielder took time to set up the attack. Again, if it's a ridiculous object, the damage should be much less, and the coup de grace will be less effective. But there still ought to be a chance.
mvincent 12-19-07, 01:41 PM	I disagree based on the fact that melee weapons are specifically designed AS weapons and improvised are not.From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons): "Improvised Weapons Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet." The differences between regular weapons and improvised weapons are detailed above. Coup de grace is not spelled out as a difference, so treating it as a difference would not be warranted by the rules as written.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 01:42 PM	A 'sturdy object' sure. Yes a lead pipe could CDG. An improvised arrow is at least a weapon which specifically is listed as analogous to a melee weapon. I just do not see it happening with a torch which is specifically analogous to a weapon (gauntlet) which cannot CDG. Thanks for the input though.
Dog_O_War 12-19-07, 01:44 PM	CDG specifically states one must use a melee weapon. A torch is certainly not on the list of a melee weapon. It is not built to BE a weapon. A club could be uses because it is purpose built to accomplish such a task...but not so with something designed to be light and used for a light source. According to RAW a torch cannot be used to CDG because it is NOT a melee weapon. This has always been one of the stupidest arguements about CDG. You can CDG someone with an unarmed strike, as you can take a -4 attack penalty to do real damage (though this does not matter). You can use CDG with weapons you're not proficient with, you can use a shuriken, even though is says otherwise. Why? because a weapon is a weapon. An improvised weapon is still a weapon, which is what a shuriken is in melee. You can do it with a held touch spell, assuming it doesn't dissipate before you full-round use it. Just because it doesn't say a wagon wheel isn't a melee weapon doesn't mean you can't use it as one. And this is the only thing that matters; whether or not you can use it like a weapon.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 01:53 PM	This has always been one of the stupidest arguements about CDG. You can CDG someone with an unarmed strike, as you can take a -4 attack penalty to do real damage (though this does not matter). You can use CDG with weapons you're not proficient with, you can use a shuriken, even though is says otherwise. Why? because a weapon is a weapon. An improvised weapon is still a weapon, which is what a shuriken is in melee. You can do it with a held touch spell, assuming it doesn't dissipate before you full-round use it. Just because it doesn't say a wagon wheel isn't a melee weapon doesn't mean you can't use it as one. And this is the only thing that matters; whether or not you can use it like a weapon. Only stupid because you believe it to be so? I am asking the question based on what the rules ARE...not what you think they should be. It would be VERY easy to convince my DM that a CDG could NOT occur as the weapon description says so specifically...no brainer. There are reasons for some rules.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 01:58 PM	This has always been one of the stupidest arguements about CDG. You can CDG someone with an unarmed strike, as you can take a -4 attack penalty to do real damage (though this does not matter). You can use CDG with weapons you're not proficient with, you can use a shuriken, even though is says otherwise. Why? because a weapon is a weapon. An improvised weapon is still a weapon, which is what a shuriken is in melee. You can do it with a held touch spell, assuming it doesn't dissipate before you full-round use it. Just because it doesn't say a wagon wheel isn't a melee weapon doesn't mean you can't use it as one. And this is the only thing that matters; whether or not you can use it like a weapon. Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. This is off my topic buy I am curious as to how, based on the SRD description of the CDG, you justify allowing spells to CDG?
mvincent 12-19-07, 02:01 PM	This is off my topic buy I am curious as to how, based on the SRD description of the CDG, you justify allowing spells to CDG?From the 3.5 FAQ (if desired): "Can you perform a coup de grace with a ray spell? No. The coup de grace action specifically allows you to use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target (Player’s Handbook, page 154). That said, allowing spells with a ranged touch attack to deliver a coup de grace against an adjacent target wouldn’t be an unreasonable house rule." This is for ranged spells. In regard to non-ranged spells, the precedence is that weapon-like spells qualify as weapons for things like sneak attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization etc. The spell compendium and RotG have reiterated this notion. I'm unsure if it has been unambigiously spelled out for spells specifically in regard to CdG yet though.
Belkar 12-19-07, 02:10 PM	a torch can be used as an improvised bludg weapon dealing damage equal to a gauntlet. It doesn't say it's "like a guantlet for all purposes" - just that it deals damage equal to a gauntlet. Therefore... says that a gauntlet is an UN-armed attack and NOT a melee weapon (which is a pre-requisite for a CDG). This restriction wouldn't apply to a torch... because nowhere does it mention that a torch has any relation to the gauntlet aside from how much damage it deals. If the "same damage", "same rules" argument were correct, then you couldn't CdG with a small-sized dagger. ;) But the rules also don't clarify in black and white whether you can or can't use improvised weapons to CdG. So... we're forced (as DM's so often are) to make logical suppositions based on similar rules. Can you CdG with a weapon you aren't proficient with (this taking a similar -4 penalty)? Yes. Can you CdG with a touch spell (which isn't a "weapon" at all)? Yes (errata cleared that one up...). So... if we allow CdG with weapons that we don't know how to use... or things that aren't really weapons at all (RAW), then is it illogical to allow improvised weapons to CdG? No. The real argument here, is... what is allowed to be an improvised weapon? This is where DM's need to flex those logical supposition muscles again. If a player asked me... "Hey, can I use this coffee cup as an improv weapon...?", then I'd glare at him and say... "Sure. 1 point damage. Subdual only." Which is about what a coffee cup to the face would do. If I was asked "Can I use this lead pipe as an Improv. Weapon? Or this chair?" My answer, "Bash away, my good man. Pipe does 1d4 of lethal, chair 1d6 lethal." Yes, improvised weapons can CdG - but the DM relegation of improvised weapons and their damage and type of damage keeps morons from killing somone with a coffee cup.
Eerongal 12-19-07, 02:12 PM	unarmed strikes can most certainly be used to CDG. To use an unarmed strike, you need to use a melee weapon. Unarmed strikes are considered melee weapons Unarmed Strike A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Heck, strictly going by RAW, you can CDG with an unarmed strike without Improved US, as CDG doesn't state that you need to do lethal damage, just damage.
rironin 12-19-07, 02:23 PM	This is off my topic buy I am curious as to how, based on the SRD description of the CDG, you justify allowing spells to CDG?Touch Attacks Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Admittedly, this is a stretch on Dog_O_War's part in my opinion. I couldn't go with this myself, in part because I do take the distinction between weapons and spells pretty rigidly, as with spells like divine favor that add bonuses to "weapon damage rolls." (NOTE: Apparently the errata goes with Dog_O_War on this; if so, I'm for it, as it makes plenty of sense) When it comes to improvised weapons, however, I think that as long as they can do damage to someone in active combat, they can do more against a helpless opponent.A 'sturdy object' sure. Yes a lead pipe could CDG. An improvised arrow is at least a weapon which specifically is listed as analogous to a melee weapon. I just do not see it happening with a torch which is specifically analogous to a weapon (gauntlet) which cannot CDG. Thanks for the input though.So you've changed your previous assertion that improvised weapons don't count as melee weapons. If a lead pipe works, then most other improvised weapons that come to mind (a chair leg, a broken bottle, etc) are also in, right? If not let me know. I assume that since they're similar to a lot of real weapons, and not much different from the pipe, then you'll probably agree that they too can coup de grace like the lead pipe. So it's just the torch that you don't like, because it "is specifically analogous to a weapon (gauntlet) which cannot CDG." A torch is not specifically analogous to a gauntlet. The damage is equal to gauntlet. All that means is that a medium-sized torch deals 1d3 points of lethal damage when used as a one-handed improvised weapon. Nothing in the sentence in question ("If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.") implies that wielding a torch as an improvised weapon counts as an unarmed attack like a gauntlet. If a lead pipe can CDG, then a chair leg can CDG. If a chair leg can CDG, then a chair leg on fire (a torch) can CDG too.
dman11235 12-19-07, 02:24 PM	Only stupid because you believe it to be so? I am asking the question based on what the rules ARE...not what you think they should be. It would be VERY easy to convince my DM that a CDG could NOT occur as the weapon description says so specifically...no brainer. There are reasons for some rules. No, it's one of the stupidest arguments because it's what the rules aren't. A melee weapon is something that you hit people with! Smacky-smacky! A sword is a melee weapon, and so is a fist. CdG is one of the most open ended special attacks out there, you can do it with a touch spell, a bow/crossbow/a melee weapon of any type, even dealing non-lethal. You argument is akin to saying that an orange is not a fruit because it isn't listed with the other fruit options at a specific restaurant that doesn't sell oranges.
Suspect_Unusual 12-19-07, 02:30 PM	A 'sturdy object' sure. Yes a lead pipe could CDG. An improvised arrow is at least a weapon which specifically is listed as analogous to a melee weapon. I just do not see it happening with a torch which is specifically analogous to a weapon (gauntlet) which cannot CDG. Thanks for the input though. I'm not exactly seeing, in the SRD, where a gauntlet is NOT allowed to CdG. I see potential inferences, but as has been pointed out by others, the "melee" designation seems more a broad situational rather than a specific categorical description. Unarmed strikes certainly can be used to CdG, even if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike - what makes gauntlets, a weapon designed to make one's unarmed strike lethal without taking an attack penalty, so incapable of CdGs? You seem to be taking a much stricter reading of CdG, using definitions that aren't specified in RAW, than seems reasonable to justify an argument that "improvised weapons one uses in melee aren't the type of melee needed to CdG". Also, the torch is analogous for the purposes of DAMAGE, not all aspects (you don't treat a torch as an unarmed strike, for instance). It is an improvised melee weapon, and i see no reason (given it's ability to deal lethal damage, and to add one's full strength modifier to damage) why one couldn't use it to satisfy CdG requirements.
Dog_O_War 12-19-07, 02:53 PM	Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. This is off my topic buy I am curious as to how, based on the SRD description of the CDG, you justify allowing spells to CDG? Well, since touch spells like chill touch can be used as a part of unarmed strikes, it stands to reason that the damage applied from the spell is applied to the DC of the fort. save CDG forces. That is how I "justify" it. Also dman, :rofl: Way too funny an explanation.
Dog_O_War 12-19-07, 03:03 PM	I'm not exactly seeing, in the SRD, where a gauntlet is NOT allowed to CdG. I see potential inferences, but as has been pointed out by others, the "melee" designation seems more a broad situational rather than a specific categorical description. Unarmed strikes certainly can be used to CdG, even if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike - what makes gauntlets, a weapon designed to make one's unarmed strike lethal without taking an attack penalty, so incapable of CdGs? You seem to be taking a much stricter reading of CdG, using definitions that aren't specified in RAW, than seems reasonable to justify an argument that "improvised weapons one uses in melee aren't the type of melee needed to CdG". Also, the torch is analogous for the purposes of DAMAGE, not all aspects (you don't treat a torch as an unarmed strike, for instance). It is an improvised melee weapon, and i see no reason (given it's ability to deal lethal damage, and to add one's full strength modifier to damage) why one couldn't use it to satisfy CdG requirements. The reason that a guantlet isn't a melee weapon is because it is a modifier for unarmed strikes (turns them into real damage, but will still draw AoO if you don't have the improved unarmed strike feat. And again, another fact that people seem to glaze past). Snice you aren't holding the guantlet in your hand, but rather wearing it, why would it be considered a melee weapon? Only the unarmed strike is a weapon, not the crap you put on top of it. Though here are some improvised guantlet-as-a-weapon stats. Guantlet; damage: 1 ego, 19-20/x2 special* * a character hit by a guantlet must make a DC 15 will save or engage in a duel of honor. If the guantlet critically hit, then he MUST engage in a duel of honor, with no save allowed.
mvincent 12-19-07, 03:16 PM	a guantlet isn't a melee weapon is because it is a modifier for unarmed strikesAlthough I don't disagree, that has been subject to some serious debate (especially in regard to monks). Even the FAQ won't touch the issue with an 11' pole anymore.
Suspect_Unusual 12-19-07, 03:19 PM	Reasonable enough, Dog_of_War. Humerous improvised weapon stats for a gauntlet, though. =] I don't see why, speaking slightly more seriously, a guantlet couldn't be used as an improvised melee weapon, instead of it's use as a unarmed strike modifier - on one hand, it would prevent AoOs, on the other, there'd be less damage and a -4 to attack.
Dog_O_War 12-19-07, 03:28 PM	Reasonable enough, Dog_of_War. Humerous improvised weapon stats for a gauntlet, though. =] I don't see why, speaking slightly more seriously, a guantlet couldn't be used as an improvised melee weapon, instead of it's use as a unarmed strike modifier - on one hand, it would prevent AoOs, on the other, there'd be less damage and a -4 to attack. Cause it's about as believeable as attacking a person with a severed hand. I call dibs on the 20th level monks' hands.
ff6shadow 12-19-07, 03:40 PM	If I take this chunk of wood with flaming pitch on it, and jam it into you eye with all my strength while your unconcious or helpless, you would likely die. Sounds like a CDG to me.
Suspect_Unusual 12-19-07, 04:05 PM	Cause it's about as believeable as attacking a person with a severed hand. I call dibs on the 20th level monks' hands. To each their own, I guess. I don't see why a 1lb chunk of steel, shaped though it is to resemble a human hand, wouldn't be as usable an improvised weapon as, say, a wooden table leg.
CryoSilver 12-19-07, 04:22 PM	There's another thread about this in the DM board, nd I posted over there that a torch would be about 1.5 inches by 15.7 inches, which is certainly long enough to bash someone to death with.
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 04:30 PM	If I take this chunk of wood with flaming pitch on it, and jam it into you eye with all my strength while your unconcious or helpless, you would likely die. Sounds like a CDG to me. Again, not saying this is not possible (in reality) although your imaginative rendition is not possible insofar as an actual attack. Perhaps I should re-phrase - according to the rules is a torch considered to be a melee weapon when used as an Improvised Weapon?
mvincent 12-19-07, 04:39 PM	according to the rules is a torch considered to be a melee weapon when used as an Improvised Weapon?I don't see why not. The rules provide global mechanics for weapons, then specify any differences improvised weapons have from normal weapons. Also, the RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a) says : "It's reasonable to assume the torch is a light weapon, albeit an improvised weapon." and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a): "improvised weapons (see page 113 in the Player's Handbook) also use the rules for manufactured weapons." Do you have any rules quote that would indicate otherwise?
Belkar 12-19-07, 04:40 PM	Perhaps I should re-phrase - according to the rules is a torch considered to be a melee weapon when used as an Improvised Weapon? Why wouldn't it be? This is what I don't get... "Melee" means used in melee combat (as opposed to ranged). "Weapon" an object that deals physical damage. You "hit" someone with the torch, and it does 1d3+Str physical damage. Per RAW. This meets all definition of a "melee weapon." I don't get where the confusion lies...
Chark the Shark 12-19-07, 04:53 PM	I don't see why not. The rules provide global mechanics for weapons, then specify any differences improvised weapons have from normal weapons. Also, the RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a) says : "It's reasonable to assume the torch is a light weapon, albeit an improvised weapon." and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a): "improvised weapons (see page 113 in the Player's Handbook) also use the rules for manufactured weapons." Do you have any rules quote that would indicate otherwise? Exactly what I was looking for THANKS!! CDG away!!